Opioids The Great Fentanyl Drought of '24 USA

[tryptakid]

Yea that makes sense @tryptakid

I am not very familiar with the Nitazenes. I only know they are potent Opioids. Are they considered "good" or are they just potent?

I haven't spent a ton of time reading or talking with folks about them but the sense that I get is that they're quite potent and pretty euphoric, but also cause tolerance surge in an even more difficult way than fentanyl and the withdrawals are very difficult to manage as a result.

 

[broseph]

I’m in az. And it’s hit or miss. The garbage is really prevalent. And top notch stuff, which a year ago was just regular old fetty, will cost you around $20 a point (0.1). I’ve heard that good stuff is still available in Cali around the coast, which I was tempted to take a road trip for. Can anyone confirm any of this hearsay?

 

[mikesorrentinoe]

This explains the 10% overdose drop in the country last month. I had two loved ones pass because of it last year. Thing is they were seeking out crystal and not fetty. I think if people are aware of what they're recieving it's good harm reduction...but to answer the question it's been in less substances in Ky. these last 6 months also

 

[chippermonk]

I’m in az. And it’s hit or miss. The garbage is really prevalent. And top notch stuff, which a year ago was just regular old fetty, will cost you around $20 a point (0.1). I’ve heard that good stuff is still available in Cali around the coast, which I was tempted to take a road trip for. Can anyone confirm any of this hearsay?

I don't know how the rest of California is doing but I keep reading that in the Bay Area quality is way down and prices are up, kinda like what it seems people all over are saying.
But I'm completely out of the loop as far as personal experience goes. Not my thing

 

[3DQSAR]

I’m in az. And it’s hit or miss. The garbage is really prevalent. And top notch stuff, which a year ago was just regular old fetty, will cost you around $20 a point (0.1). I’ve heard that good stuff is still available in Cali around the coast, which I was tempted to take a road trip for. Can anyone confirm any of this hearsay?

How many doses does a point (0.1 grams) equate to?

Given fentanyl's brief duration of action, does it have to be consumed more frequently than H (for example)? The vast majority of H users consume three doses per day and where I am, that's around 50mg per dose (a point costs £10 and my HR friends inform me that local H is around 50% pure).

I would not be at all surprised if a market for a much longer-acting opioid springs up. Long ago I knew a chemist in Russia who made methadone which was sold on the street because the state didn't and doesn't provide it.

FYI given it's huge potency, I suspect the doses of methadone needed to prevent WD in someone dependent on fentanyl might be dangerous as methadone is known to be cardiotoxic. A few years ago a friend got off H and was doing really well only to suffer a fatal heart attack. He was consuming something like 240mg methadone/day.

While by no means cheap, there is a methadone derivative shown to be some x212 methadone in potency and equally important, it's half-life is 20.5 hours compared with just 8 hours for methadone (although some methadone metabolites are active). Now ORLAAM was briefly used and proved convenient because it could be consumed three times a week BUT it proved to be even more cardiotoxic.

But as far as I know, levoacetylspiridone (a name used for convenience) is not cardiotoxic.

Sci-Hub | Synthesis and analgesic activity of some long-acting piperidinospiro derivatives of methadone. Journal of Medicinal Chemistry, 21(5), 474–476 | 10.1021/jm00203a014

It's duration isn't as long as ORLAAM (a massive 2.6 days) but it strikes me that it may represent a medicine with a higher MOR affinity than most fentanyl analogues (thus it will blockade the receptors), has high oral bioavailability (no need for needles) and I think key, it appears that onset (when consumed orally) is very slow indeed. Combine slow onset and long duration and you have a medicine not suited to 'abuse'.

FYI until a few years ago Dutch HR agencies sometimes used a related high-potency, long-duration, slow-onset medication in substitution therapy but for political reasons it's usage was discontinued.

I find it hard to fathom that levoacetylspiridone isn't used medically. While one could not patent the compound, in this day and age I feel fairly certain that it's use in substitution therapy could be patented. I can only conclude that US culture still doesn't accept the disease model of addiction and thus isn't really trying to find a way to reduce the tidal wave of fatal overdoses.

 

[TheGyattDamnRizzler]

Hey there everyone I had a question about chemical vendors. Being that there only seems to be bunk fetty around. Does anyone have any experience with ordering research chemicals ( of course not for human consumption research purposes only** )and if so any successful deliveries made to them? I'm from Southern California. Thanks for the info hope to hear from someone

I use to order fentanyl analogues from China back in 2010. I used a site and always got my shipments. I would imagine that is not possible today. If you have a good site though there should be zero issues. I actually just looked at a site and they still have the fentanyl compound that is insane.

 

[Voxide]

How many doses does a point (0.1 grams) equate to?

Given fentanyl's brief duration of action, does it have to be consumed more frequently than H (for example)? The vast majority of H users consume three doses per day and where I am, that's around 50mg per dose (a point costs £10 and my HR friends inform me that local H is around 50% pure).

I would not be at all surprised if a market for a much longer-acting opioid springs up. Long ago I knew a chemist in Russia who made methadone which was sold on the street because the state didn't and doesn't provide it.

FYI given it's huge potency, I suspect the doses of methadone needed to prevent WD in someone dependent on fentanyl might be dangerous as methadone is known to be cardiotoxic. A few years ago a friend got off H and was doing really well only to suffer a fatal heart attack. He was consuming something like 240mg methadone/day.

While by no means cheap, there is a methadone derivative shown to be some x212 methadone in potency and equally important, it's half-life is 20.5 hours compared with just 8 hours for methadone (although some methadone metabolites are active). Now ORLAAM was briefly used and proved convenient because it could be consumed three times a week BUT it proved to be even more cardiotoxic.

But as far as I know, levoacetylspiridone (a name used for convenience) is not cardiotoxic.

Sci-Hub | Synthesis and analgesic activity of some long-acting piperidinospiro derivatives of methadone. Journal of Medicinal Chemistry, 21(5), 474–476 | 10.1021/jm00203a014

It's duration isn't as long as ORLAAM (a massive 2.6 days) but it strikes me that it may represent a medicine with a higher MOR affinity than most fentanyl analogues (thus it will blockade the receptors), has high oral bioavailability (no need for needles) and I think key, it appears that onset (when consumed orally) is very slow indeed. Combine slow onset and long duration and you have a medicine not suited to 'abuse'.

FYI until a few years ago Dutch HR agencies sometimes used a related high-potency, long-duration, slow-onset medication in substitution therapy but for political reasons it's usage was discontinued.

I find it hard to fathom that levoacetylspiridone isn't used medically. While one could not patent the compound, in this day and age I feel fairly certain that it's use in substitution therapy could be patented. I can only conclude that US culture still doesn't accept the disease model of addiction and thus isn't really trying to find a way to reduce the tidal wave of fatal overdoses.

I’ve heard about that Russian thing, yep, it’s really a thing over there

They have clandestine labs and synth just raw methadone crystals and its a street drug over there in areas where they can’t get heroin

I always found the buzz off of ‘done pretty gross feeling personally, my system just doesn’t respond well to it

As trashy and tacky as recreational abuse of MAT drugs may be, buprenorphine on a low tolerance is as good as it gets as far as safety and bang for your buck

 

[averagedrugenjoyer]

The last time I used fentanyl was a couple months ago and it didn't seem like any fentanyl was in it, just made me pass out. A year ago it was better. I've heard of people who use daily passing urine test.
Probably some RC opioids and benzos/xylazine

I had the same experience, i can tell you xylazine or other cutting agents similar in effect have definitely made there way into the fent supply even in the midwest/south, my last experience i felt like i smoked shitty dope and then passed out, i never see anyone online talking about it

 

[Helpmeescapethis]

I had the same experience, i can tell you xylazine or other cutting agents similar in effect have definitely made there way into the fent supply even in the midwest/south, my last experience i felt like i smoked shitty dope and then passed out, i never see anyone online talking about it

It’s definitely made it south. Xylazine has made it everywhere in the US. Some people on ahem, certain other sites, are too childish and prideful to admit that truth. I gave up on street fentanyl forever ago. Though now my alternatives have just been banned in China, so we’ll see what happens next.

 

[tryptakid]

Saw a dude die today on the bench infront of Boston Medical Center. Lips were white.

 

[Felonious Monk]

There's also some really recently released ones like Spirochlorphine and Methiodone - I've only recently seen these ones getting any mention and haven't read any reports (I'll take a peek and see if I can find anything). I think the main reason there isn't information about most of this stuff is that they're far too new to have any legitimate peer reviewed information, and they haven't been out long enough to have substantial anecdotal accounts.

I've heard good things about methiodone, like 50-70% potency of methadone and generally similar. Also been hearing about this molecule SR-17018, apparently really good at stopping withdrawal and then tapering down/off. There's another SR, 14 something, but the reviews are less positive.

I’ve heard about that Russian thing, yep, it’s really a thing over there

They have clandestine labs and synth just raw methadone crystals and its a street drug over there in areas where they can’t get heroin

I always found the buzz off of ‘done pretty gross feeling personally, my system just doesn’t respond well to it

As trashy and tacky as recreational abuse of MAT drugs may be, buprenorphine on a low tolerance is as good as it gets as far as safety and bang for your buck

Makes sense, Russians invented methadone. Well, Soviets...

I never understand why more people didn't take suboxone or methadone for fun, besides not liking it. I really liked methadone when I first started taking opiates, and I took suboxone for a while when it was the only thing I could get and it wasn't terrible. Given the choice I'll choose heroin, but they are a very economical option.

 

[Helpmeescapethis]

I've heard good things about methiodone, like 50-70% potency of methadone and generally similar. Also been hearing about this molecule SR-17018, apparently really good at stopping withdrawal and then tapering down/off. There's another SR, 14 something, but the reviews are less positive.


Makes sense, Russians invented methadone. Well, Soviets...

I never understand why more people didn't take suboxone or methadone for fun, besides not liking it. I really liked methadone when I first started taking opiates, and I took suboxone for a while when it was the only thing I could get and it wasn't terrible. Given the choice I'll choose heroin, but they are a very economical option.

Speaking of economical, when pure fentanyl online became unavailable, I switched to nitazenes. I was so disappointed at first, but some of the “first gen” nitazenes blew fent out of the water, aside from their troubling tolerance increases (which can be modulated). Sadly those exact chems aren’t really around anymore. But I do have enough to last me the next 5 years, conservatively. Did anybody else here make the switch? I feel entirely alone in this endeavor.

 

[Esperighanto]

Speaking of economical, when pure fentanyl online became unavailable, I switched to nitazenes. I was so disappointed at first, but some of the “first gen” nitazenes blew fent out of the water, aside from their troubling tolerance increases (which can be modulated). Sadly those exact chems aren’t really around anymore. But I do have enough to last me the next 5 years, conservatively. Did anybody else here make the switch? I feel entirely alone in this endeavor.

I spoke with people at the street level and distribution level about zenes vs fent before and the common consensus was that people who were drawn to one tended to dislike the other. Distributors were fucking pissed because they thought "well an opioid is an opioid" but what I saw in street level fent users when administered zenes was unreal, it looked like they were having a deliriant MDMA overdose for 15 minutes then they just had brain zaps, delusions, etc.

I have no idea why those reactions occurred but they were consistent between people, the only ones who took to zenes were meth users for some reason.

 

[tryptakid]

I spoke with people at the street level and distribution level about zenes vs fent before and the common consensus was that people who were drawn to one tended to dislike the other. Distributors were fucking pissed because they thought "well an opioid is an opioid" but what I saw in street level fent users when administered zenes was unreal, it looked like they were having a deliriant MDMA overdose for 15 minutes then they just had brain zaps, delusions, etc.

I have no idea why those reactions occurred but they were consistent between people, the only ones who took to zenes were meth users for some reason.

Can I ask what capacity you have these conversations with users in? As in - how do you interface with pwid in the wild? I ask because I am a clinical social worker and have worked in harm reduction/addiction treatment settings for 15 years as well as working in a psychedelic support space at a music festival, and I am always curious about others who do similar work.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

Plentiful and accessible -- NOT heroin though.

Here is a question if they could 100% substitute heroin out for fentanyl (and they have east coast US) why on earth would you think they won't switch fent out for nitrazenes(Sp) or any other ol thing that keeps you from getting dopesick?

Give an inch take a mile. With a cartel prolly more like give an inch give them everything.

 

[Esperighanto]

Can I ask what capacity you have these conversations with users in? As in - how do you interface with pwid in the wild? I ask because I am a clinical social worker and have worked in harm reduction/addiction treatment settings for 15 years as well as working in a psychedelic support space at a music festival, and I am always curious about others who do similar work.

These specific conversations were had with unhoused folks in Portland Maine, as well as the suppliers to their dealers who were ordering from likely dubious sources on darknet marketplaces. I've often suspected that their nitazenes were mislabeled or contaminated, but lacked the adequate tooling to test the product at that time.

I probably had 15-20 total conversations with users, and 12-15 with the dealers and suppliers over the course of about two years about this. They trusted me because they knew I was a regular in the scene, and was often out procuring synthetic cannabinoids, looking for Ritalin (many meth users got insane amounts from harm reduction clinics and would then sell it to me at a great price), so I was pretty embedded in the unhoused community there. I have also experienced housing issues of my own in the past so I've always had a lot of empathy and connection with folks in similar circumstances. I experienced those issues in Tampa, but all of the aforementioned conversations occurred in Portland, Maine. Iirc you're also New England based, many of Portland's drugs stem from the Boston area or DNMs.

To paint a more visual picture, these conversations were had on various street corners, in abandoned 'bandos' used as temporary traphouses, in some illegally rented attics and strange, forgotten rooms in large apartment complexes, sitting on a granite curb on a chilly autumn day smoking a low dosed spice pinner and getting to know the people in general. I would usually run around to give out hand warmers, water, food, prerolls, sometimes Suboxone if I had any on hand (tons got redirected to the street and I'd buy it cheap to give out for free to people who found it useful), that sort of shit. None was legal or legally sanctioned, but I was just doing my best to be a prosocial force to whatever degree I reasonably could.

I was also on the hunt for this group of 2-3 people who'd been leaving a wave of corpses in their wake, the "spice wizards". These people would set up a small tipi shaped tent, wear headlamps, and take notes on a clipboard about spice blends they'd test on mentally ill unhoused folks. That shit isn't cool, especially when they began putting bullets through the skulls of their test subjects after their little trials would end. These motherfuckers were slick enough to avoid me for almost the entire four years that I was looking for them, but some ice dealers from Boston were also looking for them over an alleged debt, and they started spending far less time out of the street menacing the unhoused population a little bit before I left the area.

What does pwid stand for in your message, btw?

I too have done many guided psychedelic sessions but have never done so professionally nor have I ever been a professional social worker. The world is better off thanks to people who do what you do, I hope you know how appreciated it is even if it's not immediately noticeable.

 

[tryptakid]

These specific conversations were had with unhoused folks in Portland Maine, as well as the suppliers to their dealers who were ordering from likely dubious sources on darknet marketplaces. I've often suspected that their nitazenes were mislabeled or contaminated, but lacked the adequate tooling to test the product at that time.

I probably had 15-20 total conversations with users, and 12-15 with the dealers and suppliers over the course of about two years about this. They trusted me because they knew I was a regular in the scene, and was often out procuring synthetic cannabinoids, looking for Ritalin (many meth users got insane amounts from harm reduction clinics and would then sell it to me at a great price), so I was pretty embedded in the unhoused community there. I have also experienced housing issues of my own in the past so I've always had a lot of empathy and connection with folks in similar circumstances. I experienced those issues in Tampa, but all of the aforementioned conversations occurred in Portland, Maine. Iirc you're also New England based, many of Portland's drugs stem from the Boston area or DNMs.

Makes sense. There was a really cool article recently that looked at the way in which Vermont's drug scene was connected to New York and how one overdose was the entry point to investigate this entire network of users/dealers/middles etc. I love that kind of stuff. Systems analysis.

To paint a more visual picture, these conversations were had on various street corners, in abandoned 'bandos' used as temporary traphouses, in some illegally rented attics and strange, forgotten rooms in large apartment complexes, sitting on a granite curb on a chilly autumn day smoking a low dosed spice pinner and getting to know the people in general. I would usually run around to give out hand warmers, water, food, prerolls, sometimes Suboxone if I had any on hand (tons got redirected to the street and I'd buy it cheap to give out for free to people who found it useful), that sort of shit. None was legal or legally sanctioned, but I was just doing my best to be a prosocial force to whatever degree I reasonably could.

I was also on the hunt for this group of 2-3 people who'd been leaving a wave of corpses in their wake, the "spice wizards". These people would set up a small tipi shaped tent, wear headlamps, and take notes on a clipboard about spice blends they'd test on mentally ill unhoused folks. That shit isn't cool, especially when they began putting bullets through the skulls of their test subjects after their little trials would end.

Jesus fucking christ.

These motherfuckers were slick enough to avoid me for almost the entire four years that I was looking for them, but some ice dealers from Boston were also looking for them over an alleged debt, and they started spending far less time out of the street menacing the unhoused population a little bit before I left the area.

What does pwid stand for in your message, btw?

should have been pwud - people who use drugs.

I too have done many guided psychedelic sessions but have never done so professionally nor have I ever been a professional social worker. The world is better off thanks to people who do what you do, I hope you know how appreciated it is even if it's not immediately noticeable.

I appreciate that and I do it because I genuinely care about drug users and people in general . I am a conduit between worlds and I do my best to be worthy of the trust required for such a thing.

 

[Helpmeescapethis]

I spoke with people at the street level and distribution level about zenes vs fent before and the common consensus was that people who were drawn to one tended to dislike the other. Distributors were fucking pissed because they thought "well an opioid is an opioid" but what I saw in street level fent users when administered zenes was unreal, it looked like they were having a deliriant MDMA overdose for 15 minutes then they just had brain zaps, delusions, etc.

I have no idea why those reactions occurred but they were consistent between people, the only ones who took to zenes were meth users for some reason.

That’s literally unlike every single nitazene out there. And I’ve done nearly all 25 freshly banned varieties of them. I’m a daily user of them. Whatever it was, I have no idea. But I highly doubt it was any sort of nitazene.

 

[Uden]

Yep. South East here. Only thing I can find either does nothing for me, makes me feel slightly normal... or knocks me right the fuck out with no "warm fuzzy hugs from God" feeling. The latter was causing me to have massive head rushes toward the end of me using it. Went to take a piss one day and my fucking knees gave out. I've never been weak in the knees or almost passed out like that before. I'm in my 40s. Had a decent amount of time to get to know myself. And I mean HOURS after I had taken a dose and woken up, this was happening. No idea wtf it is but it's grey, hard as a rock (or powder) and there's almost no in between state between being high, and being knocked the fuck out. I'd stay away from it if you find it. Probably a tranquilizer, Xylazine, Thorazine, whatever they're using now. (could be Drano and brake fluid for all I know.)

As far as the color and consistency goes, I know you can add chemicals to every color of the rainbow, and everything from dough to concrete. That was just my experience.

 

[Helpmeescapethis]

Yep. South East here. Only thing I can find either does nothing for me, makes me feel slightly normal... or knocks me right the fuck out with no "warm fuzzy hugs from God" feeling. The latter was causing me to have massive head rushes toward the end of me using it. Went to take a piss one day and my fucking knees gave out. I've never been weak in the knees or almost passed out like that before. I'm in my 40s. Had a decent amount of time to get to know myself. And I mean HOURS after I had taken a dose and woken up, this was happening. No idea wtf it is but it's grey, hard as a rock (or powder) and there's almost no in between state between being high, and being knocked the fuck out. I'd stay away from it if you find it. Probably a tranquilizer, Xylazine, Thorazine, whatever they're using now. (could be Drano and brake fluid for all I know.)

As far as the color and consistency goes, I know you can add chemicals to every color of the rainbow, and everything from dough to concrete. That was just my experience.

Sounds like xylazine, or one of these other compounds they’re using now. I forget the names, but there are two others which have the same MOA as xylazine, with much longer durations. These compounds tank blood pressure, which would result in your near-fainting spell.

I got word from a lab recently, and I’ll say this: we will probably be seeing a SHIT TON of protonitazene being sold as “fent” here soon. Which isn’t the worst thing ever… Essentially equipotent, with a decent enough euphoria and duration in my experience.