Opioids 7oh and suboxone

[helpingout]

its definitely not "much higher affinity"- its very close, (IIRC one was 0.25mg, the other 0.3x= 10mg morphine) and 7-oh is a stronger partial agonist than mitragynine.

Site selective C–H functionalization of Mitragyna alkaloids reveals a molecular switch for tuning opioid receptor signaling efficacy - Nature Communications

Mitragynine (MG) is an indole alkaloid from kratom plant that binds opioid receptors and as such presents a scaffold for the development of atypical opioid receptor modulators. Here, the authors report a synthetic method for selective functionalization of the C11 position of MG, and show that...

www.nature.com

I have felt kratom doses while taking subs

 

[Quasimoto]

I have felt kratom doses while taking subs

They are referring to 7oh and mit affinities.

There are so many different alkaloids in kratom, a lot of which are promiscuous and hit many receptors.

I, too, feel a bit of stimulation and dopamine tickling from kratom while on subs. But 7oh doesn't do much until the bupe isn't crowding my receptors.

 

[LSDiesel]

I wonder if it could outcompete and deplace methadone, or if anything does other than bupe, fentanyl and nitazenes

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

I would not test it just in case it does. Methadone is a full agonist = better (euphoria wise) than 7oh, bupe, (Imo fent and ntazenes too) Although I have never and likely never will try a nitazene other than in the grey death they are sellin as H.... I prefer a rec dose of done' to Fet all day --- however fent tends to break through methadone does not.

Have you checked the binding affinity of each? Should give a rough idea

 

[Kurt Cobain]

I have read that yes you can PWD going from 7oh to sub and basically experience wise from people I have faith in, no not worth competing with or jumping off sub for a day to use. 02 cent peanut gallery opinion

Not really. I've done it plenty of times. I've taken subs two hours after last dose of 7 and I was taking 400mg a day if not more. Zero issues but jusy so yall know suboxone does not fucking help high dose 7oh withdraw like at fucking all.

 

[Quasimoto]

uboxone does not fucking help high dose 7oh withdraw like at fucking all.

I know your pain, but it does help.

It just sucks because it doesn't cover all the symptoms... and then when you have suboxone in your system, you can't take more 7oh because it blocks it. So you're stuck in this state which is similar to precip withdrawal, but it's not precip withdrawal.... but it is in a way... I gets its precip withdrawal without the precipitation... idk

I find that I recover rather quickly, and after about 2 days I feel normal on subs again.

It's also crazy how quickly I develop withdrawals from 7oh. After just 2-3 days taking high doses of 7oh instead of my suboxone, I will get nasty withdrawals.

 

[Kurt Cobain]

I know your pain, but it does help.

It just sucks because it doesn't cover all the symptoms... and then when you have suboxone in your system, you can't take more 7oh because it blocks it. So you're stuck in this state which is similar to precip withdrawal, but it's not precip withdrawal.... but it is in a way... I gets its precip withdrawal without the precipitation... idk

I find that I recover rather quickly, and after about 2 days I feel normal on subs again.

It's also crazy how quickly I develop withdrawals from 7oh. After just 2-3 days taking high doses of 7oh instead of my suboxone, I will get nasty withdrawals.

It doesn't help me in the slightest and I truly do mean at all even paired with normal kratom powder. You also can take 7oh along side subs and still feel full effects albeit a bit dulled. I'm also not on sub maintenance and it sounds like you are so that could change things. I do get withdraw very quickly from 7oh though one day of moderate usage I'm feeling off the next day but two days and I'm having full blown withdraw, could be kindling eggevts but I believe it's just the nature of 7oh. It's a dirty ass drug especially the unrefined tablets.

 

[Kurt Cobain]

I know your pain, but it does help.

It just sucks because it doesn't cover all the symptoms... and then when you have suboxone in your system, you can't take more 7oh because it blocks it. So you're stuck in this state which is similar to precip withdrawal, but it's not precip withdrawal.... but it is in a way... I gets its precip withdrawal without the precipitation... idk

I find that I recover rather quickly, and after about 2 days I feel normal on subs again.

It's also crazy how quickly I develop withdrawals from 7oh. After just 2-3 days taking high doses of 7oh instead of my suboxone, I will get nasty withdrawals.

Only thing that helped 7oh withdraw was high dose MIT extracts and gabapentin with some benzos and kratom powder a little bit but ymmv I was at my peak at about a gram a day of the shit

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

a gram a day? So you may be dealing with w/ds from roughly 23g of morphine a day. (23x potent in mice, now that seems to not translate to humans but the w/d still might?)

 

[higherconciousness]

I’ve been on subs for approximately 8 years. Usually anywhere from 2-4 mg insufflated. 7-OH breaks right through the subs for me. Take about 50-60mg per dose which is sizable, but taken sublingually the effects kick in fast and it feels as if I’ve taken an opiate, although it’s not as clean and has a sort of dirty feeling to it. It’s negligible, but I can definitely feel it below the surface. Also, the short duration is bothersome. Be nice if there was an ER version. Kind of reminds me of when I had a run with tianeptine.

I can use 100-200mg a day for a few days and jump right back onto my Suboxone without much discomfort. Perhaps I feel the slightest of WD symptoms, such as runny nose, yawns, excess tear production, and lethargy, but it only last for only a day then I feel re-stabilized on subs.

 

[Kurt Cobain]

a gram a day? So you may be dealing with w/ds from roughly 23g of morphine a day. (23x potent in mice, now that seems to not translate to humans but the w/d still might?)

Yes at my worst almost a gram a day. I don't think it quite equates out like that though wd still suck tho

 

[gymguy30]

So as the title suggests I had a question about 7oh and suboxone. My question is why doesn't suboxone block 7oh? Just to be clear I'm not a suboxone maintenance patient but I have bounced between the two a fair bit of times at this point and even with larger doses of subs over the course of say a week maybe two I've noticed that suboxone doesn't really block the 7oh at all and I'm just curious as to why? Perhaps bevause they're both partial agonist or maybe something else. I get all the full effects of the 7oh meanwhile at the same dose of subs over that time frame I could do 150mg of real roxycontin and not feel fuck all aside from a slight and I mean slight shift in vision IE things seem slightly brighter but duller at the same time, has anybody else noticed this with these two substances. P. S. For reference the 7oh I'm taking is roughly 97% pure 7oh powder so I don't think the argument of oh it's just the other alkaloids from kratom being left in the mix is the answer here. Cheers and open to any feed back or first hand experiences

What about someone on 16mg a day of subs ? Would they still feel 7oh ?

 

[aspiringchemist]

Kratom alkaloids hit other receptors too, and release dopamine via different routes than typical opioids. I believe that's why people still feel something on bupe. Speaking of 7-OH. I certainly felt something after taking 7-OH on bupe, but the opioid and sedating feeling was mostly absent.

Pseudoindoxyl theoretically displaces bupe. I haven't tried that yet, but a friend of mine has and was able to lower his bupe dosage by huge amounts after supplementing pseudo.

Real pseudo is difficult to find these days, though. Always has been, actually. I only know of one source. A lot of shit out there that says it has pseudo isn't actually pseudo but actually 7-OH analogs like 11-Cl-7-OH or 11-Br-7-OH, because a lot of these COA labs can't properly identify pseudoindoxyl on GC/MS tests.

I believe I’m said friend lol and I can confirm that I went from insulfatting 16mg buprenorphine per day to currently sublingual bupe dose of 0.25/day and have been supplementing with pseudo and 7OH since I began down titration. I noticed the pseudo first and this was when I reached a dose of about 8mg per day (4mg twice daily). I had been taking 8mg twice daily for 3 years.

Now I take ~0.125mg of bupe twice daily alongside ~20mg pseudo + 20mg 7OH and an increased dose of the alkaloids at night.

I will say, my tolerance has increased dramatically to pseudo and 7OH specifically. Now that I’m on such a low dose of buprenorphine I’m able to use other opioids and I’ve actually been able to skirt withdrawal for the most part this way. However, I am definitely dependent on pseudo and 7OH now as well. I’ve been trying to make that last jump of the subs but keep fumbling into other opioids…

 

[gymguy30]

Please forgive me if it’s answered in this thread but I couldn’t find a definitive answer. So 7oH will outcompete bupe? As in knock bupe off MOR in your spine and brain? But only for some? Or is the thought that it is the pseudo which is more responsible. Could a precipitated withdrawal be fixed by taking these Kratom alkaloids in the event of initiating bupe say if one was dependent on morphine or methadone or Kratom of course?

I never thought about it but getting a good rush or a good “high” is kind of like the opposite of precipitated withdrawal it’s like going from sober to accelerated pain relief with an orgasmic chaser.

Of course we all know THE BEST rush is the one that travels from down in the dumps sickness bottom all sweaty and symptomatic transformed in a virtual eye blink (a few moments) to feeling so good you might crack a smile or set out to accomplish something like tackling some demanding work or chores with a swagger and an internal soundtrack playing to the tune of your own rhythm.

I believe I’m said friend lol and I can confirm that I went from insulfatting 16mg buprenorphine per day to currently sublingual bupe dose of 0.25/day and have been supplementing with pseudo and 7OH since I began down titration. I noticed the pseudo first and this was when I reached a dose of about 8mg per day (4mg twice daily). I had been taking 8mg twice daily for 3 years.

Now I take ~0.125mg of bupe twice daily alongside ~20mg pseudo + 20mg 7OH and an increased dose of the alkaloids at night.

I will say, my tolerance has increased dramatically to pseudo and 7OH specifically. Now that I’m on such a low dose of buprenorphine I’m able to use other opioids and I’ve actually been able to skirt withdrawal for the most part this way. However, I am definitely dependent on pseudo and 7OH now as well. I’ve been trying to make that last jump of the subs but keep fumbling into other opioids…

Do you feel the 7oh at all or no ? As far as euphoria?

 

[aesthetic.addict]

I'm in a similar situation to you @aspiringchemist , Ive been on buprenorphine for a little over a year, at first I got up to 28mg for 8-9 months and has since then tapered down to 0.7 mg. I now have taken oxy for a week since I had stomach pain and I'm going back on the bupe soon. I find it easy to switch between opiates as well at these low bupe doses but I've only done 1 or 2 days on oxy before and not a whole week like now. I take maybe 20mg oxy/day now.

Do you guys think I need to do the Bernese method or should I just wait 12 hours before taking bupe?

 

[aspiringchemist]

I'm in a similar situation to you @aspiringchemist , Ive been on buprenorphine for a little over a year, at first I got up to 28mg for 8-9 months and has since then tapered down to 0.7 mg. I now have taken oxy for a week since I had stomach pain and I'm going back on the bupe soon. I find it easy to switch between opiates as well at these low bupe doses but I've only done 1 or 2 days on oxy before and not a whole week like now. I take maybe 20mg oxy/day now.

Do you guys think I need to do the Bernese method or should I just wait 12 hours before taking bupe?

Good job with the taper. Took me 3 years and a sinus infection induced from snorting too much liquid suboxone for years to begin my taper. I’ve leveled off at 0.25mg daily and haven’t tried jumping unless I’m using something else… which doesn’t really count.

I’ve been able, almost have to in order to avoid withdrawal, take 0.25-0.5mg suboxone the morning after opioid use, sometimes heavy, and sometimes only like 6 hours after. I know this goes against conventional wisdom and I’m assuming it’s worked because of the low dose almost piggybacking the last opioid used as opposed to throwing me into withdrawal; I have experienced PW but this was from methadone and suboxone, and while I was still taking 16mg/day.

I would try a low, low dose whenever you begin to experience withdrawal. I don’t imagine 20mg/day oxy being too difficult to overcome. I’ve been on suboxone for almost 4 years now and I despise it. My problem is I can’t maintain a consistent supply of anything other than kratom

 

[aspiringchemist]

Do you feel the 7oh at all or no ? As far as euphoria?

Oh yes, noticeably. Though the lower the suboxone dose, the better; and it has certainly decreased over time. But this is at 0.125mg/dose and I didn’t begin to feel it until I got down to 8mg/day in two divided doses of 4mg each

 

[gymguy30]

Oh yes, noticeably. Though the lower the suboxone dose, the better; and it has certainly decreased over time.

I won’t if I’d feel it at all on 16mg subutex since I haven’t take any 7oh in about 3 weeks ?

 

[aspiringchemist]

I won’t if I’d feel it at all on 16mg subutex since I haven’t take any 7oh in about 3 weeks ?

I didn’t until I was at 8mg daily (4mgx2)
I doubt you would at 16mg. As someone who was on 16mg for years and slowly walked down to 0.25mg daily, I can attest to the opioid blocking properties of buprenorphine, which for me rapidly decreased at doses of 4mg and below

 

[gymguy30]

I didn’t until I was at 8mg daily (4mgx2)
I doubt you would at 16mg. As someone who was on 16mg for years and slowly walked down to 0.25mg daily, I can attest to the opioid blocking properties of buprenorphine, which for me rapidly decreased at doses of 4mg and below

I may lower my subutex here soon and try to come down to 4mg and see if I can use the 7oh one day and feel it pretty good. Then again idk if I should because 7oh was a slippery slope for me. I got up to spending over 1200$ a month on it easily !!!