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Ketamine salts solubility

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I'm 100% with sekio on this one. Column chromatography is a real art form and only for those who actively enjoy watching paint dry.

Flash chromatography is a godsend,

I think the MOST important improvement Casey made to LSD synthesis was his later (and unpublished) variation in which the final amide is isolated.

That said, he managed 93% yield and I don't think the impurities are dangerous so could be left in there but he was a perfectionist, I kept on telling him that TIm Sands was producing the mono sec butyl but he always maintained that his goal was to make 'the real thing', a point he had 13 years and 8 months to consider,
 
This all makes me wonder if other analogs can be made and if it would be possible to create Methylene Dioxy Diethylamide. But I wouldn't know if such a compound would work.
 
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MedicinalUser247 said:
This all makes me wonder if other analogs can be made and if it would be possible to create Methylene Dioxy Diethylamide. But I wouldn't know if such a compound would work.
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It likely wouldn't fit well in the binding pocket, nor would a home chemist be able to make it.
 
AlsoTapered said:
Column chromatography is a real art form and only for those who actively enjoy watching paint dry.
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The only difference from "column" chromatography and flash chromatography is pressure pushing the liquid through the column so it goes quicker. That's all.

And yeah while chromatography is probably out of the question for a newb home chemist, it is the king of separation processes and should not be overlooked.

What I was suggesting when I mentioned CRC (a ghetto form of chromatography or chemical filtration if you will) is it's a great way to clean up so many natural extracts so you're starting with less compounds before targeting your isolate. A lot of compounds just won't move through the media. It's easier to separate 10 compounds from eachother (generally), than it is 100 compounds. Extraction and ultimate isolation often requires multi step processes. Each process is designed to reduce the number of compounds present. until you ultimately have one.

Also Casey is a real POS. I've met him. Dont get me started, but I have little to zero respect for that human. Who pushes their pregnant girlfriend out of a moving car? Casey does.
 
Do you think Para-Methoxydiethylamide would be easier to make than Methylene Dioxy Diethylamide ? Or is that just as difficult ? Also, what do you think about Lysergic Acid Amidotryptamine ? Do you think that would be psychoactive ?
 
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Didgital said:
Also Casey is a real POS. I've met him. Dont get me started, but I have little to zero respect for that human. Who pushes their pregnant girlfriend out of a moving car? Casey does.
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And steals the money collected for a guy who died due to a bad reaction to 5-MeO DMT. Casey does.

He's basically morally gone steeply down hill since prison. That is just 1 problem with those places, it teaches you to think of yourself and of nobody else.

About the ONLY modification I've discussed with Dave Nichols is placing a methyl at the 14 position (same spot as 7,alphe DMT. We concluded that it might increase serotonin release. We also agreed that it would be a total nightmare to make and since it was only an educated guess, their isn't much point.

The 8 position combined with different amides look like the only ways to produce subtle shades of LSD. There are still combinations as yet untested. the mono sec-butyl homologue or the (S,S) 2,4-dimehyl azetidine with different things at 8.
 
MedicinalUser247 said:
Who is Casey ? I wish people would stay on topic. No offense.
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Casey Hardison. One of the clandestine chemists with some degree of noteriety.

The topic flowed into this, and frankly is interesting. Btw, if it's bigger than an azetidine, likely won't be active. I'm unsure if the oxygens would play nice with the receptor as well, but not positive one way or another.
 
Ok, thanks for clarifying. You know I've heard some wackiest stuff out there. Like some guy who claimed he could make LSD from morning glory seeds. I know morning glory seeds contain LSA, but you can't just make LSD from that. Its much more complicated.
 
Didgital said:
The only difference from "column" chromatography and flash chromatography is pressure pushing the liquid through the column so it goes quicker. That's all.
Click to expand...

THAT was the point I was making. TIME. Preparative chromatography certainly IS very useful but generally a small-scale experiment is carried out so that the chemist can scale up go away, do something else knowing when the product is going to be ready.

BTW when sekio uses bold face... that's as assertive as s/he gets, so you can be sure they have fact-checked the heck out of every detail.
 
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AlsoTapered said:
He's basically morally gone steeply down hill since prison. That is just 1 problem with those places, it teaches you to think of yourself and of nobody else.

About the ONLY modification I've discussed with Dave Nichols is placing a methyl at the 14 position (same spot as 7,alphe DMT. We concluded that it might increase serotonin release. We also agreed that it would be a total nightmare to make and since it was only an educated guess, their isn't much point.

The 8 position combined with different amides look like the only ways to produce subtle shades of LSD. There are still combinations as yet untested. the mono sec-butyl homologue or the (S,S) 2,4-dimehyl azetidine with different things at 8.
Click to expand...
The dopaminergic component of the LSD experience seems to be delayed after ingestion and is probably due to a metabolite leading to the classic biphasic LSD experience, first part constructive, second part more dysphoric, from memory the suspected metabolite is 13 hydroxy LSD and this was a theory Nichols played with. I often wondered whether metabolism at that position (on the phenyl ring) could be blocked by fluoro. Making 13 fluoro LSD is total synthesis of lysergic acid territory and a bit beyond the capabilities of the current lizard lysergamide vendors. it is doable but very tricky. assembly of a 6 fluoroindole with some functionalization of the 4 positiion, regioselective diels-alder type indole synthesis with an alkynyl nicotinic acid is probably a way to get there.
Starting from natural lysergamides there is no way to functionalize the 13 position without destroying the ergolene core, possibly there is a semisynthesis or biosythesis using an appropriate 6-fluoro tryptophan but it is not obvious.
Anyway it is an interesting speculation that 13 Fluoro LSD would be a very useful compound for therapy.

V
 
AlsoTapered said:
THAT was the point I was making. TIME. Preparative chromatography certainly IS very useful but generally a small-scale experiment is carried out so that the chemist can scale up go away, do something else knowing when the product is going to be ready.

BTW when sekio uses bold face... that's as assertive as s/he gets, so you can be sure they have fact-checked the heck out of every detail.
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flash uses finer silica so better resolution vs column gravity chromatography.
chromatography is the devils work, crystallization is the way.
 
vecktor said:
The dopaminergic component of the LSD experience seems to be delayed after ingestion and is probably due to a metabolite leading to the classic biphasic LSD experience, first part constructive, second part more dysphoric, from memory the suspected metabolite is 13 hydroxy LSD and this was a theory Nichols played with. I often wondered whether metabolism at that position (on the phenyl ring) could be blocked by fluoro. Making 13 fluoro LSD is total synthesis of lysergic acid territory and a bit beyond the capabilities of the current lizard lysergamide vendors. it is doable but very tricky. assembly of a 6 fluoroindole with some functionalization of the 4 positiion, regioselective diels-alder type indole synthesis with an alkynyl nicotinic acid is probably a way to get there.
Starting from natural lysergamides there is no way to functionalize the 13 position without destroying the ergolene core, possibly there is a semisynthesis or biosythesis using an appropriate 6-fluoro tryptophan but it is not obvious.
Anyway it is an interesting speculation that 13 Fluoro LSD would be a very useful compound for therapy.

V
Click to expand...

13 would be likely spot for hydroxylation - but wouldn't the LogP drop if you add a H-bond donor?
 
vecktor said:
flash uses finer silica so better resolution vs column gravity chromatography.
chromatography is the devils work, crystallization is the way.
Click to expand...

I have had to learn these techniques as part of my education although I admit that it's almost 30 years ago.

Can you get crystals if you have iso and lumo in there (in small amounts)?

Never heard of anyone not using chromatography including modern patents for drugs with closely related structures.
 
What ? No offense, but I thought LSD was purely an agonist of 5ht2 and other seratonin and had nothing to do with the D receptors or dopamine. Well, I could be wrong. Please explain.
 
someguyontheinternet said:
There's no way you can get as good of separation as chromatography with just crystallization
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many process chemists would disagree.
the reason for the prevalence of chrom is that it is plug and play, it just works without having to figure anything out. however on scale it starts to be irritating, with solvent consumption etc.
chromatography free synthesis of APIs is where the real art is.
 
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AlsoTapered said:
I have had to learn these techniques as part of my education although I admit that it's almost 30 years ago.

Can you get crystals if you have iso and lumo in there (in small amounts)?

Never heard of anyone not using chromatography including modern patents for drugs with closely related structures.
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going to be careful here, recrystalisation out of methanol for the fumarate delivers what you are looking for.
 
vecktor said:
going to be careful here, recrystalisation out of methanol for the fumarate delivers what you are looking for.
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Do you mind if I ask Dave Nichols about that one? He's generally tried a LOT of routes.... but he isn't god, he doesn't know everything.

As I said before, if you can reliably get 93%, is that 7% an issue? We both know that unless stored correctly your going to end up with garbage forming along the way in any case.

nice idea, I must say. I thought the fulmarate = stable had been busted... but maybe the writer just misunderstood the value of that addition salt?
 
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