What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[unodelacosa]

Your mistakes, lies, inaccuracies and bias are all too numerous for me to sift through.

You're just lazy and fucking wrong in your conjecture. Don't take it out on me.

Edit: wow, what a let down. And here I was thinking it was cool someone was finally talking knowledgeably about aminorex analogues.

 

[Feretile]

Well, I am sorry if I over-reacted.

It really was impossible to read because it skipped between 2 different thought streams in equal measure. I DID try, I promise.

Oh, and if BrCN worries you, don't go near ANY lab. There are dozens if not hundreds of MORE dangerous chemicals. Hydrofluoric acid kills 7 or 8 people every year. Because the H & F don't dissociate so readily, it isn't a STRONG acid so you don't instantly feel a burn. What it does do is to transport -F freely around your body. I've seen situations where a small spill could have 2 outcomes - either cut of limb(s) or die.... but it's SO prevalent that people do not consider how dangerous it is.

Any halfway decent lab will have dimethyl sulfate, methyl iodide and Methyl trifluoromethanesulfonate - all of which will either kill you NOW, or shortly (cancer). 'Magic Methyl' AKA Methyl fluorosulfonate was banned after a Dutch chemist methylated themself to death. But then their are the energetic materials (and there are more than you think) AKA explosives and even what would be considered benign but which kill. You will not notice that the lab is filling with nitrogen. You will just pass out and die. Oh, and those gas bottles with the brass headers? Instant torpedos if you drop one & the (soft) brass shears.

I DO realise that it was just 1 point you made.... but it's really totally out of scale. It seems EVERONE knows how Karen Wetterhahn died, but the news of 8 food factory workers dying because their workspace filled with N2 didn't seem so, well, frightening.

So, if you worry about BrCN (BP 62C) then use NaHNCN. It's not as efficient, no professional would choose it over BrCN but it is benign. I have posted on the single step L-PAC ---> 4MAR via that reagent (with references).

So, have a good day.
F

 

[Kushman3000]

I don't think that is correct. I recall reading that MAPS is using a proprietary recipe. I also read that they plan to release their process eventually, so that should be revealing. I will try to find the quotes that discuss their process. Safrole can also be used in fragrance, so that information by itself does not really reveal anything.

I have sent several emails to MAPS and have never gotten a reply.

@Negi
I do not necessarily think MehDMA is devoid of therapeutic potential. Yes, it is sedating and provokes introspection. In a therapeutic setting, that could be beneficial. One of the things that is so frustrating about it is that it makes me want to stop talking to people. If I was just alone and on a personal journey of discovery, I think there could be some value there. I mentioned before that it really seems to enhance hypnagogic dream-like visuals if you lay down and meditate. So, I don't know that MDMA-naivete reddit posters who are seeking therapeutic potential would really understand that they don't want to cuddle with the therapist and that may be a sign of subpar product.

One time "A friend" of mine had 3 300mg XBOX pills on him. Police were called cause his GF was screaming in a trailer next to the house so the police came to his house and then threw him on the ground for putting his hands in his pockets while we were talking calmly before that So He ran, cops tackled him and put him in the cop car. Now he had abo'ut 30 minute drive to the county so I decide I would take 2 of them because if he took 3 he probably would have OD'ed. So he proceeded to grab 3 xtc xbox 300 mg a piece from my scok to the top of my thigh while in the back of the cop car. he took 2 and left 1 under the seat. We pulled up to county he got out and they immedietely lifted the seat and saw the pill, FUCK! So anyway I started rolling harder then he ever had and they were trying to take my thumprint and photograph me it was pretty intense. After they put me in a cell and I started imagining my GF was with me and I could swear she was right there with me. I was kissin on here and talking to her smelling her SHE WAS THERE it seemed I agree with the dram like visuals they can be very INTENSE and REAL. Ive taken alot of E this was probably the most ive ever taken at 1 time and it was AMAZING. Luckily he got bailed out of jail a couple hours later by my mom and GF. On the way home he had a great convo with my mom.

 

[unodelacosa]

Well, I am sorry if I over-reacted.

Bygones.

Oh, and if BrCN worries you, don't go near ANY lab. There are dozens if not hundreds of MORE dangerous chemicals.

Yes I know, but I'm not talking about a proper, legitimate lab. BrCN makes me nervous in a clandestine setting. BrCN can be made in a garage-lab from NaCN + Br₂ → BrCN + NaBr, and the fact that BrCN is highly deadly poisonous and is known to decompose explosively should give any kitchen chemist pause.

Any halfway decent lab will have dimethyl sulfate, methyl iodide and Methyl trifluoromethanesulfonate - all of which will either kill you NOW, or shortly (cancer). 'Magic Methyl' AKA Methyl fluorosulfonate was banned after a Dutch chemist methylated themself to death. But then their are the energetic materials (and there are more than you think) AKA explosives and even what would be considered benign but which kill. You will not notice that the lab is filling with nitrogen. You will just pass out and die. Oh, and those gas bottles with the brass headers? Instant torpedos if you drop one & the (soft) brass shears.

These are industrial accidents. There's also the 1984 Bhopal India / Union Carbide methyl cyanide leak disaster. I guess I should've scoped it within the realm of clandestine manufacture.

I DO realise that it was just 1 point you made.... but it's really totally out of scale. It seems EVERONE knows how Karen Wetterhahn died, but the news of 8 food factory workers dying because their workspace filled with N2 didn't seem so, well, frightening.

I guess it's the difference between a seemingly peaceful death in which people were found dead versus the instance of a scientist research mercury compounds becoming rapidly very sick from mercury poisoning despite following all the best safety protocols at the time, and within the course of less than a year, Ms. Watterhahn was sadly taken off of life support as the accumulated brain damage had already caused all her intellect to check out early. There's tragedy either way, one's just more in your face and the other is deceivingly tepid.

I have posted on the single step L-PAC ---> 4MAR via that reagent (with references).

Where did you post this? i'd like to read it.

 

[moonyham]

International Energy Control will test product that is mailed from anywhere in the world. However, their results should be taken with a grain of salt. They do the best they can, but they are unable to identify everything. I have sent product in that has had a result of "MDMA" but the product produces the "meh" effects. If you do send it to them, put a note in and indicate that a MDMA naïve user and an experienced user both had subpar results.

Hey, I got to try this 'mdma' again today with a larger dose. 200mg. I crushed it into more of a powder and used gel cap instead of a zigzag to try and be more 'true' to my real experiences, trying to reduce any chance of having any reason to suspect something else.

Very much the same experience. I tried to pay more attention to it this time. I vomited at about 1hr in. I had taken the cap 30min after eating. I've never vomited back in the day from mdma, that is definitely odd for me.

I must have absorbed atleast 100-150mg because my experience was a bit stronger than my 100mg previous experience but not by a large amount.

The come up was rough and I got intense hot flashes accompanied by dripping armpits. It felt a lot more like being poisoned than anything.

Tactile sensations improved only a small amount. I could not cum from sex, which I've always been able to do while high. I could cum on 100mg but not easily, which for me is more normal when doing *any* stims. This again is odd for me.

Music wasn't really much better. Definitely miles away from that mdma/music combo where you like *feel the music man* and wanna just go with it and dance. It was nice to listen to music though, again - only a small improvement over 'sobriety'(daily weed usage).

My energy was off. I preferred to sit or do non-physical. I felt a small idling engine going but its like it didn't want to rev. Hard to explain.

My vision is what I find most interesting. My pupils again did not fully dilate, I had about 1-2mm of colour left that on real shit would be filled with pupil. Very obvious 'glare' from all light sources. Unlike glare I've experienced before and it has lasted 10 hours. Light sources like screens of phones, TV etc are very 'glowy' and soft. In general I can see better in low light environments. My pupils are not as dilated as they were at the 2hr mark but are still just slightly larger than normal(at 10hrs).

Jaw clenching, or desire to chew gum was minimal, but longer lasting. I still have mild jaw restlessness. It seems to be just a constant that is mild from start to(now 10hrs). Also my balance hasn't been the best? I stumbled once and I almost fell over when I stretched my arms out in the first few hours. Seemed generally harder to control my body eloquently.

I got a bit of eye wobbles, it was very difficult to read at certain points. That didn't last too long. I'd say the actual 'buzz' part of this drug is about 4hrs long peaking at the 1.5 to 3hr mark-ish, and then about 6-12(?) hours more of weird lingering side effects.

I've smoked meth a few times of varying qualities in my life(literally a few times, maybe a dozen drags) and this shit is like a crappy hybrid between meth and mdma.

I'm gonna look into your link for testing and see where else I can send samples to try and get better data.

I'm not consuming it again, I know this much. Definitely a very meh drug. Give it like 3/10. Minor euphoria/buzz at lower dose was OK at best. Beyond that, seems to be gross.

Honestly I'm just gonna stick to weed, mushrooms, mescaline etc. Atleast I know wtf I'm consuming, it can't be fucked with, it can't lose some magic precursor that doesn't exist anymore. They are consistent in their doses and safe. I just got a bit excited because someone I know got 'mdma' that I tested with a regent test and got positive results. Unaware there was all this fuckery with mdma now.

It's sad but I can't be fucked dealing with hit and miss. I like it when my drugs just do what they are supposed to do. Time and health is too precious to spend chasing drugs that may not even exist anymore.

 

[indigoaura]

Hey, I got to try this 'mdma' again today with a larger dose. 200mg. I crushed it into more of a powder and used gel cap instead of a zigzag to try and be more 'true' to my real experiences, trying to reduce any chance of having any reason to suspect something else.

Very much the same experience. I tried to pay more attention to it this time. I vomited at about 1hr in. I had taken the cap 30min after eating. I've never vomited back in the day from mdma, that is definitely odd for me.

I must have absorbed atleast 100-150mg because my experience was a bit stronger than my 100mg previous experience but not by a large amount.

The come up was rough and I got intense hot flashes accompanied by dripping armpits. It felt a lot more like being poisoned than anything.

Tactile sensations improved only a small amount. I could not cum from sex, which I've always been able to do while high. I could cum on 100mg but not easily, which for me is more normal when doing *any* stims. This again is odd for me.

Music wasn't really much better. Definitely miles away from that mdma/music combo where you like *feel the music man* and wanna just go with it and dance. It was nice to listen to music though, again - only a small improvement over 'sobriety'(daily weed usage).

My energy was off. I preferred to sit or do non-physical. I felt a small idling engine going but its like it didn't want to rev. Hard to explain.

My vision is what I find most interesting. My pupils again did not fully dilate, I had about 1-2mm of colour left that on real shit would be filled with pupil. Very obvious 'glare' from all light sources. Unlike glare I've experienced before and it has lasted 10 hours. Light sources like screens of phones, TV etc are very 'glowy' and soft. In general I can see better in low light environments. My pupils are not as dilated as they were at the 2hr mark but are still just slightly larger than normal(at 10hrs).

Jaw clenching, or desire to chew gum was minimal, but longer lasting. I still have mild jaw restlessness. It seems to be just a constant that is mild from start to(now 10hrs). Also my balance hasn't been the best? I stumbled once and I almost fell over when I stretched my arms out in the first few hours. Seemed generally harder to control my body eloquently.

I got a bit of eye wobbles, it was very difficult to read at certain points. That didn't last too long. I'd say the actual 'buzz' part of this drug is about 4hrs long peaking at the 1.5 to 3hr mark-ish, and then about 6-12(?) hours more of weird lingering side effects.

I've smoked meth a few times of varying qualities in my life(literally a few times, maybe a dozen drags) and this shit is like a crappy hybrid between meth and mdma.

I'm gonna look into your link for testing and see where else I can send samples to try and get better data.

I'm not consuming it again, I know this much. Definitely a very meh drug. Give it like 3/10. Minor euphoria/buzz at lower dose was OK at best. Beyond that, seems to be gross.

Honestly I'm just gonna stick to weed, mushrooms, mescaline etc. Atleast I know wtf I'm consuming, it can't be fucked with, it can't lose some magic precursor that doesn't exist anymore. They are consistent in their doses and safe. I just got a bit excited because someone I know got 'mdma' that I tested with a regent test and got positive results. Unaware there was all this fuckery with mdma now.

It's sad but I can't be fucked dealing with hit and miss. I like it when my drugs just do what they are supposed to do. Time and health is too precious to spend chasing drugs that may not even exist anymore.

Yeah man, I get all of this.

"I felt a small idling engine going but its like it didn't want to rev." Good metaphor. It feels like something that can't get started. In my experiences, I would say that the very early come up feels promising, like something is about to happen, but then it feels aborted. Would you agree with that statement?

This article details how monoamine blockers impact the MDMA experience in virgin users. If you look at the graphs in detail, you will see that the MDMA initially progresses, but the blockers interrupt the experience before it can peak. To be clear, I do not suspect that duloxetine is the adulterant in question, but I do think monoamine transporters may be getting blocked by some unclear contaminant/adulterant.
“Duloxetine Inhibits Effects of 3,4-MDMA (‘‘Ecstasy’’) In Vitro and in Humans in a Randomized Placebo-Controlled Laboratory Study” by Ce´dric M. Hysek et al. (Hysek)

Like you, I have noticed no benefit to increasing dose other than more unpleasant side effects. I have had some limited success with pre-dosing with 15 mg of 2CB.

You're right that it is a waste of time and money, especially when it is an important date or event that you want to enjoy and then this meh product just bombs and ruins it.

For me, I keep doing it because I have some health issues that prevent the use of alcohol or weed, and psychedelics can sometimes produce anxiety that is difficult to manage. Also, minor as they are, I do appreciate the minimal sexual benefits.

I have never done meth, so I cannot make that comparison, but I agree that you basically just want to be still on this shit. Did you feel annoyed at all with being expected to move? My eyes also do not fully dilate. I will get the short bursts of jaw clenching or nystagmus, but it feels completely divorced from any good feelings. Just feels like side effects with no payoff. How was your short term memory throughout the experience?

 

[unodelacosa]

@indigoaura @moonyham — dammit, man. That's shitty. I'm sorry you and others have been having these lame fuckaround experiences still in 2022. The last time I had this kind of MDMA was in 2018. It felt fucking jittery and it made us all vomit easily. Granted, MDMA makes some people vom almost every time they take it, but I'm not one of those people and it was nauseating and an overall unpleasant experience. However, in my case it turned out being the so-called “MDMA” in question was in fact some blend of caffeine, βk-MBDB (butylone) and/or βk-EDBD (eutylone) with a touch of MDMA sufficient to muddy a reagent test so the stew goes to black eventually on the Marquis for example… these pills eventually went up on Pill Reports and I'm pretty sure we identified the same pills.

Keeping up with the growing global demand for illicit MDMA is a massive, high stakes game of cat & mouse…Personally, I think the right dose of 2C-B can be an amazing stand-in for MDMA's desirable effects. The downside is that it's a psychedelic, especially with higher doses. The upshots are that it's an incredible aphrodisiac, eating while on the drug is not only possible, it's genuinely more enjoyable than sober (food tastes amazing on 2C-B), it has a gentle come up and there's no hangover later. Oh and if you don't like where you are in your trip, just hang tight – it's a short trip compared to most other psychedelics.

 

[moonyham]

Yeah man, I get all of this.

"I felt a small idling engine going but its like it didn't want to rev." Good metaphor. It feels like something that can't get started. In my experiences, I would say that the very early come up feels promising, like something is about to happen, but then it feels aborted. Would you agree with that statement?

This article details how monoamine blockers impact the MDMA experience in virgin users. If you look at the graphs in detail, you will see that the MDMA initially progresses, but the blockers interrupt the experience before it can peak. To be clear, I do not suspect that duloxetine is the adulterant in question, but I do think monoamine transporters may be getting blocked by some unclear contaminant/adulterant.
“Duloxetine Inhibits Effects of 3,4-MDMA (‘‘Ecstasy’’) In Vitro and in Humans in a Randomized Placebo-Controlled Laboratory Study” by Ce´dric M. Hysek et al. (Hysek)

Like you, I have noticed no benefit to increasing dose other than more unpleasant side effects. I have had some limited success with pre-dosing with 15 mg of 2CB.

You're right that it is a waste of time and money, especially when it is an important date or event that you want to enjoy and then this meh product just bombs and ruins it.

For me, I keep doing it because I have some health issues that prevent the use of alcohol or weed, and psychedelics can sometimes produce anxiety that is difficult to manage. Also, minor as they are, I do appreciate the minimal sexual benefits.

I have never done meth, so I cannot make that comparison, but I agree that you basically just want to be still on this shit. Did you feel annoyed at all with being expected to move? My eyes also do not fully dilate. I will get the short bursts of jaw clenching or nystagmus, but it feels completely divorced from any good feelings. Just feels like side effects with no payoff. How was your short term memory throughout the experience?

Yes agree on the promising come up that feels aborted. Right before the intense sweating and hot flashes I was thinking 'ah maybe this is mdma and my dose was too low last time' which I realized was not the case quite quickly.

And yeah for me doing these anything beyond weed is usually an 'event' not just some Tuesday night haha. So yeah it needs to hit.

Unfortunate regarding the weed/psychedelics thing. For me I love tripping I just find it hard to get the time and mushrooms are seasonal so for the most part I just trip a couple times in autumn.

I found meth is very easy to sit still at a computer or watching TV, unless you had a particularly large dose. You have energy to do anything as soon as you start though, unlike this stuff where it doesn't feel easier, it feels like a choir. With meth it's more like you still have that little humming motor but it WILL rev when you need it. For me it lasts a very long time though. I've been up for 3-4 days off one large hit(pipe). Usually just a small hit I would stay up that night and skip one sleep. I would love to try a micro dose in the morning one day.

Oh and yeah my short term memory was very bad. My GF was sober and very frequently we would be talking and I'd not know what we just said.


Interestingly after my post last night I went to bed. I had pretty intense closed eye visuals. Like, a photographic image of some dude flying onto a merry go round that spins up to like 100x the speed and flings a dozen of those faces off. Real weird shit. The visuals were nothing like lsd, mushrooms, mescaline. The were erratic, had weird speed ups I've never seen before. There was the typical rainbow pattern visuals but they were dull and more in the background compared to the strange dream like visuals I was experiencing. At one point a large hammer starting banging into the ground.. Faster and faster until it was a almost a blur.. The ground it was hitting had rainbows flying off it. Just.. Weird stuff. It was very entertaining almost like watching TV.

This was 11+ hrs after dosing. I am experienced with psychedelics and that was just so utterly weird.

 

[moonyham]

@indigoaura @moonyham — dammit, man. That's shitty. I'm sorry you and others have been having these lame fuckaround experiences still in 2022. The last time I had this kind of MDMA was in 2018. It felt fucking jittery and it made us all vomit easily. Granted, MDMA makes some people vom almost every time they take it, but I'm not one of those people and it was nauseating and an overall unpleasant experience. However, in my case it turned out being the so-called “MDMA” in question was in fact some blend of caffeine, βk-MBDB (butylone) and/or βk-EDBD (eutylone) with a touch of MDMA sufficient to muddy a reagent test so the stew goes to black eventually on the Marquis for example… these pills eventually went up on Pill Reports and I'm pretty sure we identified the same pills.

Keeping up with the growing global demand for illicit MDMA is a massive, high stakes game of cat & mouse…Personally, I think the right dose of 2C-B can be an amazing stand-in for MDMA's desirable effects. The downside is that it's a psychedelic, especially with higher doses. The upshots are that it's an incredible aphrodisiac, eating while on the drug is not only possible, it's genuinely more enjoyable than sober (food tastes amazing on 2C-B), it has a gentle come up and there's no hangover later. Oh and if you don't like where you are in your trip, just hang tight – it's a short trip compared to most other psychedelics.

Thanks for the insight. I very much think this is some weird shit and quite possibly a mix that has been muddled with real mdma. I just replied above with my experience of intense closed eye visuals 11hrs after dosing. Wtf is that about!

What's the deal with 2c-b? Is it like mdma or other drugs where quality varies and sometimes it isn't even 2c-b or it tests for it but it's some weird hybrid like what I'm dealing with in mdma issue?

I remember I was trying to order some from Canada in early 2000s and then the analogues act was passed in my country and I gave up.

I've seen it on the darknet, but know nothing about its status in terms of purity and fakes.

Is there still places its legally made or is it completely illegal worldwide now like coke mdma etc.

 

[hardtack]

Ingestion of cocaine still seems oddly wasteful in terms of bioavailability for such an expensive ingredient, but I'm not accounting for the inflationary effects of prohibition.

Firstly, it wasn't all pure and for the record, there were fake-ass, pressed & stamped, bunk AF pills sold back then, too. Shit still happened; people were poisoned by PMA, some fatally, in a number of places including Chicago in the late 90s, for example.

Secondly, sassafras contains mostly the allylbenzene, safrole, which needs isomerizing and is then typically converted to an intermediate—MDP-2-P (aka: PMK)—which is then reduced to MDMA (or MDA, MDE, et al.). I'm pointing this out so no one becomes confused thinking only MDMA from the 90s was made from sassafras oil and/or that MDMA made from, say, "PMK-glycidate" is somehow inexplicably different from MDMA made a few decades earlier.

Redosing is still not uncommon.

You're drifting into a Grampa's "Back in my day" rant, haha; it's easy to do…

Agreed. I feel blessed to have tried even half the compounds I've had now. This was a major reason I set up a lab years ago – I thought I was gonna have to make these compounds myself if I wanted to taste them. And yeah going to raves has always been kick-ass.

Grampa and his 90s Gabber over here…

I'm much more optimistic. Hopefully everything will be legal by then, and they'll have the chance to explore inner space safely and without the danger of crippling legal consequences once they're adults. And they'll admire how courageous their grandparents' generation was for taking those early risks and fighting for everyone's right to explore their own minds. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Wow. You really see it that way? Like Shulgin was busy designing new "fantastic party chems" (FPCs?), and the "Chinese did build on his work"? As if the Chinese govt. shared a common goal with Dr. Alexander Shulgin (lol) of designing and producing new FPCs (haha), and they actually built on his work. Or like Shulgin was secretly selling RCs and motivated by profits, lol. Obviously this was not the case, as you know. What I'm saying is: it's woefully inaccurate to conflate the life's work of Dr. Shulgin with the profit-incentivized goals and strategies of Chinese RC manufacturers, so statements like this can be misleading to others.

I don't know about "should be made in bulk"—I think I disagree there—but I agree that 4-MAR is a fascinating compound. I've written about it a little on this site some months ago and I've researched it in the past… We're getting a little off-topic… Shoot me a PM if you feel like discussing 4-MAR at all.

[Edited for clarity.]

Ok tell me more about 4 MAR....... sounds very interesting?

 

[indigoaura]

Thanks for the insight. I very much think this is some weird shit and quite possibly a mix that has been muddled with real mdma. I just replied above with my experience of intense closed eye visuals 11hrs after dosing. Wtf is that about!

What's the deal with 2c-b? Is it like mdma or other drugs where quality varies and sometimes it isn't even 2c-b or it tests for it but it's some weird hybrid like what I'm dealing with in mdma issue?

I remember I was trying to order some from Canada in early 2000s and then the analogues act was passed in my country and I gave up.

I've seen it on the darknet, but know nothing about its status in terms of purity and fakes.

Is there still places its legally made or is it completely illegal worldwide now like coke mdma etc.

I was very lucky for many years and had one reliable source for 2CB. I ordered some 2CC from the Dark Web at one point and it was trash. I have not tried 2CB from the Dark Web, so I honestly cannot say. With anything, I always reagent test and then lab test and then eat. I think 2CB is really a niche thing, so I don't know that you are going have have the same mass scale problems you see with MDMA.

I adore 2CB. I have used it since 2006. The dose is very sensitive. VERY sensitive. In my experience, there is going to be a sweet spot for you personally depending on what you want out of the experience. For me, if I want visuals and to really be hit fairly hard but still be able to function, 30 mg is the right dose. If I take 35 mg, it is too much. However, the smaller doses in the 15-20 mg range provide a slight enhancement of mood and subtle color shifts that are more easily managed.

Mixing it with alcohol enhances the effect tremendously and in very unpredictable ways. I have seen several people lose the ability to speak after mixing with alcohol. One dude told me he "became a man" after this.

There are spiritual benefits too if you are into out of body projection and that type of thing. It definitely enhances and increases mediation ability, IMO. You are more easily able to tap into subtle currents.

As far as I know, 2CB is illegal everywhere. I also love 2CC which is still legal in some places, but it is very hard to find. 2CC is like the softer, quieter cousin of 2CB. Anal administration of 2CC is fantastic and hits in a very different way. Highly recommended if you can find 2CC anywhere. I have not been able to find it for years.

Oh and yeah my short term memory was very bad. My GF was sober and very frequently we would be talking and I'd not know what we just said.

This is one factor I have noticed with the "meh" product that is really weird to me. Yes, there can be some similar memory issues with good MDMA, but this is just in another ballpark entirely. You feel almost sober but you don't know what you just said, just did, or were planning to do. I have had moments where it was like my mind was just wiped for 5 minutes. It is very noticeable and significantly worse than what I have experienced on a good roll.

 

[Feretile]

Someone I know made the BK versions i.e. bk-2CB. Potency was lower but apparently they were very similar.

The reason they had not turned up before was that people presumed that the compound would dimerise via dehydration (ketone + primary amine) but it turned out that it only occured in VERY cacidic conditions - I mean, even when dry HCl was bubbled through a solution of a freebase, THAT didn't dimerize it.

I wonder if anybody had added a ketone to things like AET? No..... silly idea.

 

[unodelacosa]

Ok tell me more about 4 MAR....... sounds very interesting?

I don't want to go too far off topic. Just look it up. Its effects are somewhat emotionally open like MDMA and also cognitively boosting and filled with CNS stimulation like methamphetamine but with an academic-minded slant where instead of manufacturing frankenstein-esque inventions from various power tools in your garage, you're more likely to want to write dissertations on academic subjects of interest, and in general there's something of a Limitless-like effect that people sometimes report. Unlike meth and MDMA though, it shows no serious signs of neurotoxicity, but it is quite possible that the drug is cardiotoxic, much like the norephedrine (aka: PPA, cathine) from which it can be made, and which was an ingredient in Dexatrim until it was pulled from the market allegedly for causing heart problems, including myocardial infarction, for some consumers. Also, the duration is unmercifully long, as in somewhere around 14 hours of zooming after a little 15 mg bump. This is largely considered to be a demerit by most who've taken it, though it may appeal to others who like to binge. For this reason, it tends to attract poor media attention when news of it breaks through the surface of the underground (which isn't often, the last two significant times being 2004 and 1987).

 

[unodelacosa]

Someone I know made the BK versions i.e. bk-2CB. Potency was lower but apparently they were very similar.

The reason they had not turned up before was that people presumed that the compound would dimerise via dehydration (ketone + primary amine) but it turned out that it only occured in VERY cacidic conditions - I mean, even when dry HCl was bubbled through a solution of a freebase, THAT didn't dimerize it.

I wonder if anybody had added a ketone to things like AET? No..... silly idea.

I've had βk-2C-B. It seems to have more DA and NE response and less 5-HT overall, and that's true both in the literature I've read and my own experience. There's also a 2C-B-Aminorex but I haven't tasted it.

However, are there any known, active β-ketone tryptamines? There are active MAOIs that are β-carbolines but that's a different thing altogether.

 

[Feretile]

4MAR is a 5HT2b ligand so it causes heart valve damage. It's also an MAOI. AR isn't an MAOI, but it's still a 5HT2b ligand. When it was prescribed as a diet pill, it harmed a lot of people.

 

[hardtack]

I don't want to go too far off topic. Just look it up. Its effects are somewhat emotionally open like MDMA and also cognitively boosting and filled with CNS stimulation like methamphetamine but with an academic-minded slant where instead of manufacturing frankenstein-esque inventions from various power tools in your garage, you're more likely to want to write dissertations on academic subjects of interest, and in general there's something of a Limitless-like effect that people sometimes report. Unlike meth and MDMA though, it shows no serious signs of neurotoxicity, but it is quite possible that the drug is cardiotoxic, much like the norephedrine (aka: PPA, cathine) from which it can be made, and which was an ingredient in Dexatrim until it was pulled from the market allegedly for causing heart problems, including myocardial infarction, for some consumers. Also, the duration is unmercifully long, as in somewhere around 14 hours of zooming after a little 15 mg bump. This is largely considered to be a demerit by most who've taken it, though it may appeal to others who like to binge. For this reason, it tends to attract poor media attention when news of it breaks through the surface of the underground (which isn't often, the last two significant times being 2004 and 1987).

Thanks - yeah did not really see much talk of it except many many years ago on this site. So it tends to overload the heart but nice part -4 MAR does not require much of an amount to act on a person. that is what was unique with 2 C-B ; took very very little to get a decent effect. Yeah stuff is not too common guessing it takes allot of tweaking of chemicals to make this product? However if it does wok allot like MDMA and meth it may prove something to just stash for a rainy day? How do you rate another RC 3-MMC?

 

[hardtack]

I was very lucky for many years and had one reliable source for 2CB. I ordered some 2CC from the Dark Web at one point and it was trash. I have not tried 2CB from the Dark Web, so I honestly cannot say. With anything, I always reagent test and then lab test and then eat. I think 2CB is really a niche thing, so I don't know that you are going have have the same mass scale problems you see with MDMA.

I adore 2CB. I have used it since 2006. The dose is very sensitive. VERY sensitive. In my experience, there is going to be a sweet spot for you personally depending on what you want out of the experience. For me, if I want visuals and to really be hit fairly hard but still be able to function, 30 mg is the right dose. If I take 35 mg, it is too much. However, the smaller doses in the 15-20 mg range provide a slight enhancement of mood and subtle color shifts that are more easily managed.

Mixing it with alcohol enhances the effect tremendously and in very unpredictable ways. I have seen several people lose the ability to speak after mixing with alcohol. One dude told me he "became a man" after this.

There are spiritual benefits too if you are into out of body projection and that type of thing. It definitely enhances and increases mediation ability, IMO. You are more easily able to tap into subtle currents.

As far as I know, 2CB is illegal everywhere. I also love 2CC which is still legal in some places, but it is very hard to find. 2CC is like the softer, quieter cousin of 2CB. Anal administration of 2CC is fantastic and hits in a very different way. Highly recommended if you can find 2CC anywhere. I have not been able to find it for years.


This is one factor I have noticed with the "meh" product that is really weird to me. Yes, there can be some similar memory issues with good MDMA, but this is just in another ballpark entirely. You feel almost sober but you don't know what you just said, just did, or were planning to do. I have had moments where it was like my mind was just wiped for 5 minutes. It is very noticeable and significantly worse than what I have experienced on a good roll.

2C-B is not that bad an experience long as you just take 15mg to 20 mg and that's it. Kinda like a very very mild acid experience combined with euphoria of MDA. Hits you like 20 minutes in after just placing powder on tongue and dissolves. Well worth having at least 200 mg or more for just enjoyment.2C-B is best known and lucky I got to experience it. Was enjoyable for real!

 

[unodelacosa]

Thanks - yeah did not really see much talk of it except many many years ago on this site.

There's some writing about it, mid-90s from newsgroup, alt.drugs.chemistry. Eleusis (legend) talks at length about 4-MAR and its synthesis. Circa 2003 a novel synthetic route to the specific enantiomer, trans-4-methylaminorex, emerged on The-Hive.ws. By 2004 there was a Federal case in Florida of a clandestine chemist producing both cis-4-MAR and trans-4-MAR. Only the cis enantiomer is specifically scheduled and the U.S. federal govt. failed to convict the defendant on charges involving the trans product on hand at the time of arrest. He still got 48 months for the cis portion, but even the infamous Analogue Act did not apply here. So this specific enantiomer is a gray market specific drug. Oh and unlike what the govt. expected, the trans enantiomer is not just active, but it's a bit more potent than the illegal cis counterpart.

that is what was unique with 2 C-B ; took very very little to get a decent effect.

Depends on what you're comparing it to, though. Compared to a typical MDMA dose, yes, 2C-B is nearly ten times more potent. But compared to LSD, well, I think you see where I'm going with this.

Yeah stuff is not too common guessing it takes allot of tweaking of chemicals to make this product?

Not as much as you might think. The traditional route makes use of cyanogen bromide (BrCN), which is both deadly toxic and known for becoming explosively unstable upon degradation from impurities, which can happen rapidly in the right conditions. This can be a bit daunting, but it's otherwise fairly straightforward.

Alternatively there's a nifty one-pot synth from norephedrine (PPA, aka: cathine) using Potassium Cyanate (KOCN) to reach a urea intermediate which is then hydrolyzed by the addition of HCl, a little clean up and presto: 4-MAR. This manages to avoid dealing with BrCN and targets the legally ambiguous trans enantiomer, making for an unattractive target to most would-be prosecutors. This is the original Hive Thread: https://chemistry.mdma.ch/hiveboard/novel/000458588.html. (note: illicit manufacturing is super dangerous both in terms of physical safety and the endangerment of human lives, and in terms of the numerous and significant legal risks involved; please do not break any laws; this is for academic understanding only).

However if it does wok allot like MDMA and meth it may prove something to just stash for a rainy day?

Yeah if you can find it. No one seems willing to manufacture it these days, even though it should be quite easy for an RC manufacturer in the East, and despite the lowered liability afforded in the trans enantiomer, as explained above.

How do you rate another RC 3-MMC?

Compared to 4-MMC, it has significantly more dopaminergic and adrenergic activity and less serotonergic involvement, which is a bit disappointing, particularly as I've enjoyed the buzz/rush of 4-MMC quite a bit in the past.

Regardless, 3-MMC is an okay stim w/a nice entactogenic aspect to its effects. It's nothing as spectacular as MDMA, but I can tell there's 5-HT activity behind my eyes. This is nice if you want to go out partying with friends, but wish to avoid Karaoke Tuesday® at The Suicide Shack™ & The E-Tard MDMA Hillbilly Hangover Blues brought to you live and direct by MDMA Comedowns, LLC if you catch my drift. That said, if 3-MMC's price is still super low like it was, then it's a great deal, totally worth it. One thing to consider though: 3-MMC is likely prosecutable in the U.S. via the Analogue Act for being so similar to 4-MMC which is specifically scheduled. Sorry to everyone in EU, Aus, NZ, et al., but I'm not as familiar with foreign drug law.

 

[unodelacosa]

Thanks for the insight. I very much think this is some weird shit and quite possibly a mix that has been muddled with real mdma.

If you think about it and apply Occam's Razor, this is the best explanation to the MDMAmazing/MehDMA riddle, in my humble opinion.

I just replied above with my experience of intense closed eye visuals 11hrs after dosing. Wtf is that about!

Drug counterfeiting via deliberate mislabelling of another psychotropic compound is what that sounds like to me.

What's the deal with 2c-b?

2C-B is the proverbial bee's knees, and according to its inventor, the late Dr. Alexander Shulgin, it stands out as the drug he was most proud to have discovered and introduced to the world. (And he introduced a lot).

Is it like mdma or other drugs where quality varies and sometimes it isn't even 2c-b or it tests for it but it's some weird hybrid like what I'm dealing with in mdma issue?

How could I be certain? In my experience so far, however, no, it does not currently appear to suffer from MDMA's shiesty production problems. MDMA is much more popular and its natural precursors have been targeted and destroyed at times by LE, same as with coca/cocaine and poppy/raw opium. These and other factors have allowed unscrupulous drug dealers to “pump and dump” large amounts of garbage MDMA before anyone figures it out. This is generally not true of less popular drugs, where the vendor must rely more heavily on reputation to move their wares.

Do note: there is a completely different product that is sometimes found being sold on the DNMs called "Tusibi" and is pronounced identically to "2C-B" despite not being the same compound(s). It's usually a pink powder that contains some amounts of MDMA, caffeine, and ketamine, but rarely if ever does it contain 2C-B. Per usual, it is wise to do your research into the vendor from which you plan to procure your extracurriculars, shall we say?

I've seen it on the darknet, but know nothing about its status in terms of purity and fakes.

I don't think 2C-B has hit that critical tipping point in popularity to warrant this concern, but scammers abound on the interwebz as usual, so it's always prudent to use caution and do research.

Is there still places its legally made or is it completely illegal worldwide now like coke mdma etc.

Just from a glance at this page, it seems like it's mostly explicitly illegal virtually everywhere, like many of Shulgin's discoveries, sometimes perhaps merely for appearing in PiHKAL or TiHKAL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2C-B#Drug_prohibition_laws

 

[unodelacosa]

Well, I am sorry if I over-reacted.

Bygones.

Oh, and if BrCN worries you, don't go near ANY lab. There are dozens if not hundreds of MORE dangerous chemicals.

Yes I know, but I'm not talking about a proper, legitimate lab. BrCN makes me nervous in a clandestine setting. BrCN can be made in a garage-lab from NaCN + Br₂ → BrCN + NaBr, and the fact that BrCN is highly deadly poisonous and is known to decompose explosively should give any kitchen chemist pause.

Any halfway decent lab will have dimethyl sulfate, methyl iodide and Methyl trifluoromethanesulfonate - all of which will either kill you NOW, or shortly (cancer). 'Magic Methyl' AKA Methyl fluorosulfonate was banned after a Dutch chemist methylated themself to death. But then their are the energetic materials (and there are more than you think) AKA explosives and even what would be considered benign but which kill. You will not notice that the lab is filling with nitrogen. You will just pass out and die. Oh, and those gas bottles with the brass headers? Instant torpedos if you drop one & the (soft) brass shears.

These are industrial accidents. There's also the 1984 Bhopal India / Union Carbide methyl cyanide leak disaster. I guess I should've scoped it within the realm of clandestine manufacture.

I DO realise that it was just 1 point you made.... but it's really totally out of scale. It seems EVERONE knows how Karen Wetterhahn died, but the news of 8 food factory workers dying because their workspace filled with N2 didn't seem so, well, frightening.

I guess it's the difference between a seemingly peaceful death in which people were found dead versus the instance of a scientist research mercury compounds becoming rapidly very sick from mercury poisoning despite following all the best safety protocols at the time, and within the course of less than a year, Ms. Watterhahn was sadly taken off of life support as the accumulated brain damage had already caused all her intellect to check out early. There's tragedy either way, one's just more in your face and the other is deceivingly tepid.

I have posted on the single step L-PAC ---> 4MAR via that reagent (with references).

I'm having trouble finding that post… ?