What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[hardtack]

There's some writing about it, mid-90s from newsgroup, alt.drugs.chemistry. Eleusis (legend) talks at length about 4-MAR and its synthesis. Circa 2003 a novel synthetic route to the specific enantiomer, trans-4-methylaminorex, emerged on The-Hive.ws. By 2004 there was a Federal case in Florida of a clandestine chemist producing both cis-4-MAR and trans-4-MAR. Only the cis enantiomer is specifically scheduled and the U.S. federal govt. failed to convict the defendant on charges involving the trans product on hand at the time of arrest. He still got 48 months for the cis portion, but even the infamous Analogue Act did not apply here. So this specific enantiomer is a gray market specific drug. Oh and unlike what the govt. expected, the trans enantiomer is not just active, but it's a bit more potent than the illegal cis counterpart.

Depends on what you're comparing it to, though. Compared to a typical MDMA dose, yes, 2C-B is nearly ten times more potent. But compared to LSD, well, I think you see where I'm going with this.

Not as much as you might think. The traditional route makes use of cyanogen bromide (BrCN), which is both deadly toxic and known for becoming explosively unstable upon degradation from impurities, which can happen rapidly in the right conditions. This can be a bit daunting, but it's otherwise fairly straightforward.

Alternatively there's a nifty one-pot synth from norephedrine (PPA, aka: cathine) using Potassium Cyanate (KOCN) to reach a urea intermediate which is then hydrolyzed by the addition of HCl, a little clean up and presto: 4-MAR. This manages to avoid dealing with BrCN and targets the legally ambiguous trans enantiomer, making for an unattractive target to most would-be prosecutors. This is the original Hive Thread: https://chemistry.mdma.ch/hiveboard/novel/000458588.html. (note: illicit manufacturing is super dangerous both in terms of physical safety and the endangerment of human lives, and in terms of the numerous and significant legal risks involved; please do not break any laws; this is for academic understanding only).

Yeah if you can find it. No one seems willing to manufacture it these days, even though it should be quite easy for an RC manufacturer in the East, and despite the lowered liability afforded in the trans enantiomer, as explained above.

Compared to 4-MMC, it has significantly more dopaminergic and adrenergic activity and less serotonergic involvement, which is a bit disappointing, particularly as I've enjoyed the buzz/rush of 4-MMC quite a bit in the past.

Regardless, 3-MMC is an okay stim w/a nice entactogenic aspect to its effects. It's nothing as spectacular as MDMA, but I can tell there's 5-HT activity behind my eyes. This is nice if you want to go out partying with friends, but wish to avoid Karaoke Tuesday® at The Suicide Shack™ & The E-Tard MDMA Hillbilly Hangover Blues brought to you live and direct by MDMA Comedowns, LLC if you catch my drift. That said, if 3-MMC's price is still super low like it was, then it's a great deal, totally worth it. One thing to consider though: 3-MMC is likely prosecutable in the U.S. via the Analogue Act for being so similar to 4-MMC which is specifically scheduled. Sorry to everyone in EU, Aus, NZ, et al., but I'm not as familiar with foreign drug law.

THANKS -actually doing a little roll on 3 MMC this very minute and got to say it's very mild , not bad but compared to the old 4 MEC it's half as strong. I guess 4 MEC was my absolute favorite. Pentylone was very enjoyable too. But never forgot the buzz I got from 2C-B because tripping is not my bag . I had pretty enjoyable e

xperience and never forgot it. I was Hallucinating for sure but felt allot of Euphoria. It really worked. Now tell me how 3',4'-Methylenedioxy-α-pyrrolidinohexiophenone or better known as MD-PHP reason interested it has the magic structure at the front. You know that attachment for sure! Same one MDMA has same one Methylone has and that I know is the empathogen part. I see that amphetamine has similar structure but without that front part there is not LOVE as I call it. But all the RCs I did had it and it really is the trigger...no question Ethylone and Methylone have it and of course real MDMA. The front five sided ring yeah makes huge difference? SO your guess-timation on MD-PHP or maybe HEXEN known as N-ethylnorhexedrone...?

 

[mrfoxly]

Hey, I got to try this 'mdma' again today with a larger dose. 200mg. I crushed it into more of a powder and used gel cap instead of a zigzag to try and be more 'true' to my real experiences, trying to reduce any chance of having any reason to suspect something else.

Very much the same experience. I tried to pay more attention to it this time. I vomited at about 1hr in. I had taken the cap 30min after eating. I've never vomited back in the day from mdma, that is definitely odd for me.

I must have absorbed atleast 100-150mg because my experience was a bit stronger than my 100mg previous experience but not by a large amount.

The come up was rough and I got intense hot flashes accompanied by dripping armpits. It felt a lot more like being poisoned than anything.

Tactile sensations improved only a small amount. I could not cum from sex, which I've always been able to do while high. I could cum on 100mg but not easily, which for me is more normal when doing *any* stims. This again is odd for me.

Music wasn't really much better. Definitely miles away from that mdma/music combo where you like *feel the music man* and wanna just go with it and dance. It was nice to listen to music though, again - only a small improvement over 'sobriety'(daily weed usage).

My energy was off. I preferred to sit or do non-physical. I felt a small idling engine going but its like it didn't want to rev. Hard to explain.

My vision is what I find most interesting. My pupils again did not fully dilate, I had about 1-2mm of colour left that on real shit would be filled with pupil. Very obvious 'glare' from all light sources. Unlike glare I've experienced before and it has lasted 10 hours. Light sources like screens of phones, TV etc are very 'glowy' and soft. In general I can see better in low light environments. My pupils are not as dilated as they were at the 2hr mark but are still just slightly larger than normal(at 10hrs).

Jaw clenching, or desire to chew gum was minimal, but longer lasting. I still have mild jaw restlessness. It seems to be just a constant that is mild from start to(now 10hrs). Also my balance hasn't been the best? I stumbled once and I almost fell over when I stretched my arms out in the first few hours. Seemed generally harder to control my body eloquently.

I got a bit of eye wobbles, it was very difficult to read at certain points. That didn't last too long. I'd say the actual 'buzz' part of this drug is about 4hrs long peaking at the 1.5 to 3hr mark-ish, and then about 6-12(?) hours more of weird lingering side effects.

I've smoked meth a few times of varying qualities in my life(literally a few times, maybe a dozen drags) and this shit is like a crappy hybrid between meth and mdma.

I'm gonna look into your link for testing and see where else I can send samples to try and get better data.

I'm not consuming it again, I know this much. Definitely a very meh drug. Give it like 3/10. Minor euphoria/buzz at lower dose was OK at best. Beyond that, seems to be gross.

Honestly I'm just gonna stick to weed, mushrooms, mescaline etc. Atleast I know wtf I'm consuming, it can't be fucked with, it can't lose some magic precursor that doesn't exist anymore. They are consistent in their doses and safe. I just got a bit excited because someone I know got 'mdma' that I tested with a regent test and got positive results. Unaware there was all this fuckery with mdma now.

It's sad but I can't be fucked dealing with hit and miss. I like it when my drugs just do what they are supposed to do. Time and health is too precious to spend chasing drugs that may not even exist anymore.

This is more or less a word for word account of my experiences over the last few years as well.

 

[PsychedelicSummer]

Mine too. Got some new pills (green Philip Plein), but I'm reluctant to try them as I don't enjoy MehDMA. I must have at least 10 different batches of "MDMA" of which I've just have had one sample and never again. I only save them in order to send them somewhere where they can detetect regioisomers - but don't know where that would be.

 

[unodelacosa]

THANKS -actually doing a little roll on 3 MMC this very minute and got to say it's very mild , not bad but compared to the old 4 MEC it's half as strong. I guess 4 MEC was my absolute favorite. Pentylone was very enjoyable too. But never forgot the buzz I got from 2C-B because tripping is not my bag . I had pretty enjoyable e

xperience and never forgot it. I was Hallucinating for sure but felt allot of Euphoria. It really worked. Now tell me how 3',4'-Methylenedioxy-α-pyrrolidinohexiophenone or better known as MD-PHP reason interested it has the magic structure at the front. You know that attachment for sure! Same one MDMA has same one Methylone has and that I know is the empathogen part. I see that amphetamine has similar structure but without that front part there is not LOVE as I call it. But all the RCs I did had it and it really is the trigger...no question Ethylone and Methylone have it and of course real MDMA. The front five sided ring yeah makes huge difference? SO your guess-timation on MD-PHP or maybe HEXEN known as N-ethylnorhexedrone...?

While I do think there's something to be said for a 3,4-methylenedioxy-phenyl ring structure in terms of the compound's preference for 5-HT targets in the brain, both as a releasing agent and partial reuptake inhibitor, it's not all as simple as that. Also worth noting: Paroxetine (aka: Paxil) has a methylenedioxy ring bound to a phenyl ring and the rest of the molecule is attached via a negatively charged oxygen atom, which affords it enantiomeric shielding and thus helps it to "target" selective 5-HT receptors in the brain. Note too that Paxil does not induce rolling.

I've had Hexen. It was just so-so, to me. I actually really like α-PVP, but I admit that it doesn't suit everyone the same, much like the amphetamine-class drugs. I think I passed on MD-PHP as the reviews weren't wonderful and I didn't like PHP compared to MDPV and α-PVP; YMMV.

 

[hardtack]

While I do think there's something to be said for a 3,4-methylenedioxy-phenyl ring structure in terms of the compound's preference for 5-HT targets in the brain, both as a releasing agent and partial reuptake inhibitor, it's not all as simple as that. Also worth noting: Paroxetine (aka: Paxil) has a methylenedioxy ring bound to a phenyl ring and the rest of the molecule is attached via a negatively charged oxygen atom, which affords it enantiomeric shielding and thus helps it to "target" selective 5-HT receptors in the brain. Note too that Paxil does not induce rolling.

I've had Hexen. It was just so-so, to me. I actually really like α-PVP, but I admit that it doesn't suit everyone the same, much like the amphetamine-class drugs. I think I passed on MD-PHP as the reviews weren't wonderful and I didn't like PHP compared to MDPV and α-PVP; YMMV.

Thank you for your expertise and knowledge on how this structure is. I always thought that front attachment was responsible for the empathy because having taken the Real pure MDMA of 90's no question about that and pure Methylone ... having to triple dose the Methylone seemed to prove same feeling. No question I was getting best of the best but difference was years of time passed. But thank you telling about Hexen. Guess really not worth the time for use. I must say though many of my girlfriends partied with did not seem to have as good of an experience with rolling as I did. Does it effect men better than woman? Could we have better acceptance of the 3,4-methylenedioxy-phenyl ring than they do? Also wondered allot about Butylone back a few years ago. Felt allot like having pure high grade cocaine; and that was it. More of a powerful stimulant and pretty hard on the heart. Have to say did allot of the real thing, no binders, no added nothing; just 98% pure. None of them had any bad effect "NONE" long term or short. Smart thing never mixed anything like I hear constantly in forums. People US ,UK, everywhere just cocktailing too many mixes at one time. That has got to be dangerous for sure! Still by far 4-MEC has to be the best for mild enjoyment and super safe. Not being too strong like 4MMC it was excellent. Wish that was back around .
(Paxil is a mood stabilizer right? SSRI -took in 96 & zero effect on me. But seems to that attachment we spoke of)

 

[hardtack]

There's some writing about it, mid-90s from newsgroup, alt.drugs.chemistry. Eleusis (legend) talks at length about 4-MAR and its synthesis. Circa 2003 a novel synthetic route to the specific enantiomer, trans-4-methylaminorex, emerged on The-Hive.ws. By 2004 there was a Federal case in Florida of a clandestine chemist producing both cis-4-MAR and trans-4-MAR. Only the cis enantiomer is specifically scheduled and the U.S. federal govt. failed to convict the defendant on charges involving the trans product on hand at the time of arrest. He still got 48 months for the cis portion, but even the infamous Analogue Act did not apply here. So this specific enantiomer is a gray market specific drug. Oh and unlike what the govt. expected, the trans enantiomer is not just active, but it's a bit more potent than the illegal cis counterpart.

Depends on what you're comparing it to, though. Compared to a typical MDMA dose, yes, 2C-B is nearly ten times more potent. But compared to LSD, well, I think you see where I'm going with this.

Not as much as you might think. The traditional route makes use of cyanogen bromide (BrCN), which is both deadly toxic and known for becoming explosively unstable upon degradation from impurities, which can happen rapidly in the right conditions. This can be a bit daunting, but it's otherwise fairly straightforward.

Alternatively there's a nifty one-pot synth from norephedrine (PPA, aka: cathine) using Potassium Cyanate (KOCN) to reach a urea intermediate which is then hydrolyzed by the addition of HCl, a little clean up and presto: 4-MAR. This manages to avoid dealing with BrCN and targets the legally ambiguous trans enantiomer, making for an unattractive target to most would-be prosecutors. This is the original Hive Thread: https://chemistry.mdma.ch/hiveboard/novel/000458588.html. (note: illicit manufacturing is super dangerous both in terms of physical safety and the endangerment of human lives, and in terms of the numerous and significant legal risks involved; please do not break any laws; this is for academic understanding only).

Yeah if you can find it. No one seems willing to manufacture it these days, even though it should be quite easy for an RC manufacturer in the East, and despite the lowered liability afforded in the trans enantiomer, as explained above.

Compared to 4-MMC, it has significantly more dopaminergic and adrenergic activity and less serotonergic involvement, which is a bit disappointing, particularly as I've enjoyed the buzz/rush of 4-MMC quite a bit in the past.

Regardless, 3-MMC is an okay stim w/a nice entactogenic aspect to its effects. It's nothing as spectacular as MDMA, but I can tell there's 5-HT activity behind my eyes. This is nice if you want to go out partying with friends, but wish to avoid Karaoke Tuesday® at The Suicide Shack™ & The E-Tard MDMA Hillbilly Hangover Blues brought to you live and direct by MDMA Comedowns, LLC if you catch my drift. That said, if 3-MMC's price is still super low like it was, then it's a great deal, totally worth it. One thing to consider though: 3-MMC is likely prosecutable in the U.S. via the Analogue Act for being so similar to 4-MMC which is specifically scheduled. Sorry to everyone in EU, Aus, NZ, et al., but I'm not as familiar with foreign drug law.

Yes your completely right on that. Still wonder about that 4 MAR? I guess because of being a form of amino it sounds something natural to the brain unlike the synthetics. Guess I am just trying to find the 4 MEC magic because sadly I never had allot of it and kick my self in the arse for not hoarding the hell out of it back in the day.

 

[indigoaura]

Does it effect men better than woman?

I rolled hard enough for all your friends, LOL.

But, seriously, there can be fluctuations in intensity for women due to the way the menstrual cycle impacts serotonin and dopamine levels. Serotonin is low during PMS. Also, some birth control pills utilize some of the same liver enzymes as MDMA, so that can interfere as well. I once had a friend who changed pills and the entire way she rolled changed. So, there are factors at play for women that may not be at play for men. However, women do not roll less than men; some studies actually show the opposite.

Here is an article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/qkgqx3/why-ecstasy-may-be-more-dangerous-and-deadly-if-youre-a-woman

 

[G_Chem]

Thank you for your expertise and knowledge on how this structure is. I always thought that front attachment was responsible for the empathy because having taken the Real pure MDMA of 90's no question about that and pure Methylone ... having to triple dose the Methylone seemed to prove same feeling. No question I was getting best of the best but difference was years of time passed. But thank you telling about Hexen. Guess really not worth the time for use. I must say though many of my girlfriends partied with did not seem to have as good of an experience with rolling as I did. Does it effect men better than woman? Could we have better acceptance of the 3,4-methylenedioxy-phenyl ring than they do? Also wondered allot about Butylone back a few years ago. Felt allot like having pure high grade cocaine; and that was it. More of a powerful stimulant and pretty hard on the heart. Have to say did allot of the real thing, no binders, no added nothing; just 98% pure. None of them had any bad effect "NONE" long term or short. Smart thing never mixed anything like I hear constantly in forums. People US ,UK, everywhere just cocktailing too many mixes at one time. That has got to be dangerous for sure! Still by far 4-MEC has to be the best for mild enjoyment and super safe. Not being too strong like 4MMC it was excellent. Wish that was back around .
(Paxil is a mood stabilizer right? SSRI -took in 96 & zero effect on me. But seems to that attachment we spoke of)

I’ve noticed this as well.. I think it’s because of the difference in effects between men and women with relation to the hormone oxytocin. To women oxytocin has many purposes and from what I gathered they experience it/release it more often and to a greater extent. Hence one reason women probably have more extensive friend groups than males.

To males, oxytocin is a bit less common and seems to be more strictly related to interpersonal relationships and to a lesser extent early childhood bonding.

So my guesstimate is that when males get flooded with oxytocin it is a lot more novel and interesting than when females experience it.

-GC

 

[Feretile]

It seems that MDMA is almost unique. It's possible to emulate it's action using a mixture of other compounds (2:1 p/m-Me Aminorex), but 5APB/6APB aren't as good, neither are p-MeO & p-MeS) amphetamine and they are also toxic.

noname01 hosted at ImgBB

Image noname01 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

I have often wondered if the above has ever been contemplated. Yes, the metabolism would have to be carefully considered BUY the reason MDA/MDMA are much less toxic than p-MeO & p-MeS- amphetamine is due to metabolism (the methylene bridge is removed and the stuff leaves the CNS.

I really do not know. It's likely too complex to make. Anybody know if 2H-1,3-benzoxathiole-5-carbaldehyde is commercially available.

BTW I placed the S at the meta position because it's my opinion that 4MTA (4-MeS-amphetamine) was so toxic because it is oxidised to the methylsulfone and then the methanesulfonate. It seems to me that in a meta position, it will have too much steric bulk to fit any monoamine receptors... but that is my opinion. I'm not so sure that I would not need animal studies. I was fairly sure the aminorex derivatives were safe, so was willing to slowly work up the dose.

 

[hardtack]

I’ve noticed this as well.. I think it’s because of the difference in effects between men and women with relation to the hormone oxytocin. To women oxytocin has many purposes and from what I gathered they experience it/release it more often and to a greater extent. Hence one reason women probably have more extensive friend groups than males.

To males, oxytocin is a bit less common and seems to be more strictly related to interpersonal relationships and to a lesser extent early childhood bonding.

So my guesstimate is that when males get flooded with oxytocin it is a lot more novel and interesting than when females experience it.

-GC

That makes sense....but could also have to do with how Males brain fire feel good and happy signals better than women do? Woman I have rolled with tend to get moody and silly where as friends I had that were guys really got in super good mood and
like being your best of friends!

 

[indigoaura]

Males brain fire feel good and happy signals better than women do?

Huh? What research are you referring to here?

Full disclosure - I am a woman. I guarantee you I felt full fire, elation, euphoria, happiness, sensuality, love, etc.

 

[Ambien Powered Rabbit]

I must say though many of my girlfriends partied with did not seem to have as good of an experience with rolling as I did.

I’ve noticed this as well.. I think it’s because of the difference in effects between men and women with relation to the hormone oxytocin. To women oxytocin has many purposes and from what I gathered they experience it/release it more often and to a greater extent. Hence one reason women probably have more extensive friend groups than males.

To males, oxytocin is a bit less common and seems to be more strictly related to interpersonal relationships and to a lesser extent early childhood bonding.

So my guesstimate is that when males get flooded with oxytocin it is a lot more novel and interesting than when females experience it.

-GC

That makes sense....but could also have to do with how Males brain fire feel good and happy signals better than women do? Woman I have rolled with tend to get moody and silly where as friends I had that were guys really got in super good mood and
like being your best of friends!

why is all the grass blue in the southern hemisphere?

"well the reason for that is chlorophyll undergoing a morphiescent transfuckification from being upside down all the time"

choose a premise with absolutely no basis in reality and then work backwards trying to scientificate it to sound plausible. is that how this thread works?

 

[unodelacosa]

I have often wondered if the above has ever been contemplated.

Yes it has. This 2013 paper published by two Chilean researchers in Current Neuropharmacology discusses it: https://bitnest.netfirms.com/external/10.2174/1570159X11311050007 (Sáez-Briones, P; Hernández, A. MDMA (3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine) Analogues as Tools to Characterize MDMA-Like Effects: An Approach to Understand Entactogen Pharmacology. Curr. Neuropharmacol., 1 Sep 2013, 11 (5), 521–534. 1.4 MB. https://doi.org/10.2174/1570159X11311050007).

They write (bold mine):

Bioisosteric replacement of oxygen by sulfur has been shown to increase potency in a number of cases that bear some structural analogy to the molecules […] A single such modification has been introduced in the dioxole ring of MMDA-2 […] and it seems reasonable to extend this concept based on the MDMA structure. As an extension of the latter, the study of isoxazoles and their dihydro derivatives […] might be possible suitable templates for the development of novel MDMA-like molecules.

They also go on to state:

The monothio analogues of the mono-, di-, and triethoxy homologues of mescaline have been evaluated in man. Modifications at the ring position para to the ethylamine chain, either with a sulfur atom, a longer alkyl chain, or both, lead to compounds with potent central nervous system activity. The 4-n-propoxy and 4-n-butoxy homologues and their corresponding 4-thio analogues were also synthesized and pharmacologically evaluated. The propyl homologues retained high potency, but a butyl group (either with or without a sulfur atom) leads to a decrease in activity. The m-ethyl or m-thio analogues retained some effect but the diethoxy and especially the triethoxy homologues seem to be inactive as psychotomimetic drugs.

I found this part interesting (and perhaps relevant to @G_Chem's point regarding oxytocin):

As described earlier, MDMA induces in humans an altered state of consciousness characterized by increased empathy to others […] Interestingly, MDMA is able to enhance social interaction in rats as well and to decrease aggression in mice and fish. These effects seem to be mediated by alterations in 5-HT neurotransmission. In rats, MDMA doses ranging 2.5 to 5 mg/kg elevates “adjacent lying”, a specific passive physical contact parameter measured in the social interaction model. This effect is further increased when ambient temperature is higher, suggesting that it is not simply an adaptation to a cold environment. This prosocial effect should be linked to serotonergic 5-HT1A receptor activation mediated by the massive 5-HT release in the hypothalamus induced by MDMA at acute doses. The latter causes the release of the neuropeptide oxytocin that, in turn, should be the direct effector of the prosocial behaviors induced by MDMA. Modifications of oxytocin release patterns are proposed to be limited to a specific structure network in the central nervous system, including the medial preoptic area, the nucleus accumbens, medial amygdala, ventromedial hypothalamus, as well as hypothalamic oxytocin containing neurons. More recently, another study showed that the prosocial effects mediated by MDMA are also associated with increments in the expression of Fos transcription factor in the same brain regions.

And this part seems relevant to the thread discussion:

In addition, the prosocial effect induced by MDMA can be attenuated and even replaced by an anxiogenic-like syndrome (mediated by serotonergic 5-HT2A receptor activation), probably induced by 5-HT depletion that may arise after repetitive drug exposure.

 

[G_Chem]

Also I feel I should add context on the gender differences with oxytocin.

This article shows a significant amount more oxytocin in plasma of females than males.

Sex-Related Differences in Plasma Oxytocin Levels in Humans - PMC

Increasing evidence supports a key role of Oxytocin (OT) as a modulator of social relationships in mammals. The aim of the present study was to investigate possible sex-related differences in plasma OT levels in human beings. Forty-five healthy men ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Emotional empathy was enhanced after 125 mg of MDMA, mainly in men; that is, MDMA increased empathy ratings in men up to the higher placebo levels of women…”

MDMA enhances emotional empathy and prosocial behavior - PubMed

3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, 'ecstasy') releases serotonin and norepinephrine. MDMA is reported to produce empathogenic and prosocial feelings. It is unknown whether MDMA in fact alters empathic concern and prosocial behavior. We investigated the acute effects of MDMA using the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This second study states they found lower ratings of empathy with females but increased ratings on the facial recognition test regarding negative faces seeing them as more positive. (Butchered that lol.)


And here’s a study showing sex dependent differences in relation to “oxytocin genes” and subsequent empathy levels related to it.

The association between oxytocin receptor gene polymorphism (OXTR) and trait empathy

Oxytocin exerts well accepted effects on one of the key social processes: empathy. Previous researches have demonstrated that oxytocin promotes emotio…

www.sciencedirect.com

All that said, it seems while oxytocin plays a part in MDMA’s effects, it’s not all. And because women respond much stronger to MDMA, when looking at blood levels 125mg dose is much stronger for a woman than a man. So it all kinda pans out in the end.

I’ll say again while I think MDMA is fun as hell for women too it’s not quite as novel an experience as it is to males. I’ve been reading and it seems easy for males to have dysfunction regarding oxytocin release, so when we get a dump of it, it’s like seeing the world in a new way for the first time. My first roll was life changing in that way.

This has fuck all to do with the topic so I’ll see myself out now..

-GC

 

[unodelacosa]

This article shows a significant amount more oxytocin in plasma of females than males.

Sex-Related Differences in Plasma Oxytocin Levels in Humans - PMC

Increasing evidence supports a key role of Oxytocin (OT) as a modulator of social relationships in mammals. The aim of the present study was to investigate possible sex-related differences in plasma OT levels in human beings. Forty-five healthy men ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Emotional empathy was enhanced after 125 mg of MDMA, mainly in men; that is, MDMA increased empathy ratings in men up to the higher placebo levels of women…”

MDMA enhances emotional empathy and prosocial behavior - PubMed

3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, 'ecstasy') releases serotonin and norepinephrine. MDMA is reported to produce empathogenic and prosocial feelings. It is unknown whether MDMA in fact alters empathic concern and prosocial behavior. We investigated the acute effects of MDMA using the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Worth noting: this is self-reported, I assume. Not the best metric vis-à-vis science data and statistical, objective, and observable events.

This second study states they found lower ratings of empathy with females but increased ratings on the facial recognition test regarding negative faces seeing them as more positive.

This seems contradictory to me.

And here’s a study showing sex dependent differences in relation to “oxytocin genes” and subsequent empathy levels related to it.

The association between oxytocin receptor gene polymorphism (OXTR) and trait empathy

Oxytocin exerts well accepted effects on one of the key social processes: empathy. Previous researches have demonstrated that oxytocin promotes emotio…

www.sciencedirect.com

All that said, it seems while oxytocin plays a part in MDMA’s effects, it’s not all. And because women respond much stronger to MDMA, when looking at blood levels 125mg dose is much stronger for a woman than a man. So it all kinda pans out in the end.

Wait so you're saying MDMA triggers more oxytocin release in men which makes the experience more novel and profound for males, yet at the same time you state that "women respond much stronger to MDMA"… I guess you're implying that although oxytocin release is rare and profound in men, and MDMA triggers its release thus leading to sometimes life-changing experiences, women must have a more robust serotonergic response to MDMA?

I’ll say again while I think MDMA is fun as hell for women too it’s not quite as novel an experience as it is to males.

This is where you're losing people's support. Don't you think this sounds audacious to presume what the qualitative effects of MDMA are for female users and how they specifically diverge from male users' experiences? It does sound like you had this thought and then reverse engineered the data to match the conclusion. It's easy to do; I know I'm guilty of it at least once a week usually, lol

But since we're just speculating here, I disagree with your take on the female MDMA experience. In my personal life, from what I've witnessed, MDMA has the same core empathogenic effect coupled with anxiolysis and an intense mindset of living in the present 100% with neither worry for the future nor regret for the past. It's a feeling of serene satisfaction and an overall a general acceptance of the world as it is. This crosses the lines of gender, sex, origin, race/ethnicity, age and whatever other "EOE" terms apply, from what I've seen. But this is just my observation and opinion. It gets solipsistic and existential at some point – who knows for sure what anyone else's experience of subjective reality is actually like?

Until we can elucidate how consciousness really works and concretely define what it is and what specifically gives rise to it, we'll continue to be in the dark concerning exactly how psychotropic drugs work.

I’ve been reading and it seems easy for males to have dysfunction regarding oxytocin release, so when we get a dump of it, it’s like seeing the world in a new way for the first time. My first roll was life changing in that way.

Are you referring here to sexual/erectile dysfunction? I recommend—if you're a healthy adult with no heart or blood pressure issues and not taking any blood pressure medication—taking MDMA w/ Cialis, Levitra, or Viagra. Sextacy. It's a real thing, and it's great. I can't explain why, but MDMA doesn't always put me in the mood, but when it does, it does so with enthusiasm.

This has fuck all to do with the topic so I’ll see myself out now..

Well… we are still discussing MDMA and how the qualitative effects present along a wide array of possible biological and psychological responses and why this may or may not be. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[G_Chem]

Regarding the study, they used two tests. One called “Multifaceted Empathy Test” and the other “Face Emotion Recognition Task.” Empathy and facial recognition are obviously two very different things. My ability to determine is someone’s mad at me or not has nothing to do with whether I empathize with them or not.

Also novelty and potency are again two wildly different things. Women have higher blood levels of MDMA from the same dose, but just because they’re flooded with more oxytocin doesn’t mean it’s anything new for them. Oxytocin is just one piece of a very large puzzle, and studies debate back and forth whether the pro social effects are even mediated by it.. (Thinking on this more, the variable in this debate could be gender.)

Women have 3x more oxytocin on average than males, so when we look at this relatively, oxytocin increase isn’t as much compared to males.

Also I was referring to dysfunction of oxytocin release, not my cock

I had a good article talking about how males can deal with decreased endogenous levels from trauma and head injuries which alter the function of the hypothalamus pituitary adrenal axis. (Idk about anyone else but I’ve taken more than a couple hits to the head over the years.) Can’t find it now. Lots of stuff regarding PTSD and early childhood trauma damaging it though, which leads to lower endogenous levels and may be why MDMA is so effective at treating PTSD.

Yes I reverse engineered this freak of an idea, which I should reiterate once again the word “idea”. People don’t like anything that is race or gender related, but simple fact is men and women don’t respond the same to drugs. Just like certain races don’t respond the same to drugs (Asian flush anyone?) But to talk of these things makes us uncomfortable. If we don’t talk about them we’ll never know, I’m not saying I’m right or wrong but find it interesting how butt hurt people get over this kind of thing just by trying to discuss.

I’m not a chick, at the end of the day I don’t know how hard anyone but me is truly rolling. Just making observations based on pro-social behaviors I’ve witnessed in highly controlled experimental settings such as festivals

-GC

 

[G_Chem]

An article that shows while women do get a stronger overall effect, they reported a significantly higher rating of “bad drug effect” compared to males.

At 125mg women reported a score of 85 for any drug effect, 82 for good drug effect and 24 for bad drug effect. For men; 73 for any drug effect, 77 for good drug effect and 13 for bad drug effect. Clearly we see women, despite reporting a stronger overall drug effect are reporting less positive and much more negative effects than males.

https://edoc.unibas.ch/56152/1/20170920162155_59c2798357d20.pdf

Another article on MDMA gender differences…

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/47795762/Gender_differences_in_the_subjective_eff20160804-26440-sx2wpv-with-cover-page-v2.pdf?Expires=1645716717&Signature=KHLhO-PNN1LHdL4SWnMcfrfls850StmxsW2JJqWMkx87ut~7LlLd9TPN3xEkdSXdp9JjTWCyYC6Gmfmpj9qJSjwJKGp~ld20FBkWks5nDXzvngZ~uUVB8RBee~dfP89QFfQlwOCtoBPJoIMCPj7ViD4YpmT--YJYZr2COCHhfI6wAZEmgUVORHnqauUxskQt~YgYC817tEgFb7P5ZRDBmYW~7u-KW0tarwJAAmNlJC~F1Q03O2jNDNPm3JB98zpsYt8fO8VelhjvA36D3T75V0G~TcMCEP-7fxa8oulufG-r1u9QpG0exzYbQuEUKtP3bRiNst9-vCCB99xF0bjrBw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

“Interestingly, only women had increased scores for anxiety and depression.”

“We found a significant correlation between the dose of MDMA (range 1.35–1.85 mg/kg) and MDMA-induced anxiety scores in women (r=0.5; n=20, P<0.03) but not in men.”

“In contrast to women, men were slightly activated by MDMA and reported be- ing more active and energetic (significant main effect of drug for men alone.”

“Adverse effects were more frequent- ly reported by women compared to men and mainly in- cluded jaw clenching or increased tension in maxillary muscles, dry mouth, and lack or loss of appetite.”

And if women didn’t have it bad enough, an article showing increased mid week blues compared to males.

Sub-acute effects of MDMA (±3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine,

Rationale: Research with animals suggests that central 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) function may be attenuated for a period following a single dose of ±3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, 'ecstasy'). If the same is true in humans, then functions thought to be modulated by 5-HT may differ in...

link.springer.com

This article shows men are more frequent/heavier users of MDMA, probably cuz of all the reasons ive already stated.

Gender Differences Among MDMA Users on Psychological and... : Addictive Disorders & Their Treatment

onnaires to assess drug history. Results: Regardless of frequency and severity of use, MDMA users scored significantly higher on measures of depression, anxiety, and impulsivity compared with controls. However, there were no gender effects for these psychological variables. Within the MDMA...

journals.lww.com

I’d say I’ve proven my point fairly well at this time, now I just need to stay out of this thread..

-GC

 

[G_Chem]

More differences…

An article showing copeptin release in females but not males indicating vasopressin release.

Sex Differences in the Effects of MDMA (Ecstasy) on Plasma Copeptin in Healthy Subjects

AbstractBackground:. 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, ecstasy) misuse is associated with hyponatremia particularly in women. Hyponatremia is possib

academic.oup.com

This study shows how Vasopressin effects facial judgment.

Arginine Vasopressin Effects on Subjective Judgments and Neural Responses to Same and Other-Sex Faces in Men and Women - PubMed

Arginine vasopressin (AVP) influences social and emotional behaviors across a wide range of species. In humans, intranasal AVP has been previously shown to alter physiological responses to and subjective judgments of same-sex faces in both men and women. The present study attempted to elucidate...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This second study is important because it ties back in with the study before showing females had a change in facial recognition of negative emotions while males did not. It’s likely due to the varied vasopressin release between genders.

-GC

 

[G_Chem]

And this info may explain why women have harsher comedowns, less likely to use MDMA long term, etc.

“However, HMMA plasma concentrations were linked to CYP2D6 genotype (higher with two functional alleles). Female subjects displayed more intense physiological (heart rate, and oral temperature) and negative effects (dizziness, sedation, depression, and psychotic symptoms.”

“In particular, higher CYP2D6 activity among extensive metabolizers has been observed in women compared to men..”

I’ve noticed this myself without a doubt, this one is hard to dispute. Women generally have rougher mid week blues. The increased HMMA production will lead to increased rates of neurotoxicity and subsequent loss of magic compared to males.

-GC

 

[unodelacosa]

And this info may explain why women have harsher comedowns, less likely to use MDMA long term, etc.

“However, HMMA plasma concentrations were linked to CYP2D6 genotype (higher with two functional alleles). Female subjects displayed more intense physiological (heart rate, and oral temperature) and negative effects (dizziness, sedation, depression, and psychotic symptoms.”

“In particular, higher CYP2D6 activity among extensive metabolizers has been observed in women compared to men..”

I’ve noticed this myself without a doubt, this one is hard to dispute. Women generally have rougher mid week blues. The increased HMMA production will lead to increased rates of neurotoxicity and subsequent loss of magic compared to males.

-GC

No, I got what you were conveying, and I was agreeing with the thesis that there are some major biochemical differences between sexes. These physiological factors are important, and to ignore this would be foolish and fundamentally wrong. Furthermore I’m not uncomfortable discussing these topics at all. Please don’t conflate what I’m saying with snowflake politics. I guess I’m just reiterating the point that it seems like you’re jumping to some conclusions, but what do I know?

I’m reminded of the medical issue / ethics dilemma regarding the fact that pain is a self-reported phenomenon and malingering is a real thing. Entactogenic qualitative effects are complex and personal, like pain. Moreover, it’s not clear to me whether you were saying men rolled harder bc of the oxytocin thing, or if women do bc of the blood serum levels thing. I don’t think that can be determined in any linear manner like we’re attempting to do maybe