Nurse Ratched
Bluelight Crew
Time for an update on how your weekend went tapering and how you are feeling.
Quitting phenibut journal
- Thread starter negrogesic
- Start date
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
I've been having a tougher time, been waking up suddenly at around 4am, with a tightness in my chest. I don't think its from any recent dose decreases, I think I was just suddenly hit will all those previous decreases all at once.
Night before last i woke up to this weird sinister/"evil" feeling, skinny burning/parathesia, which is common for me with GABAergic withdrawal. But then during the day im mostly fine, but start to get more tense in the evenings. As with most withdrawal, nights are the worst. Gabapentinoids are a little different than benzos however in that the nights are particularly bad, yet compartively mild during the day (whereas benzo withdrawal is mostly a 24/7 horror show).
I believe the reason it was particularly bad that night was because i took the phenibut only 30 minutes after eating, which decreases its effect. I try wait an hour usually. But overall im feeling it more all of a sudden.
In any event the other night was quite severe. The food must have messed up the absorption quite a bit or its possible I weighed it wrong. Woke up in a panic, felt very trippy too, like heavier GABAergic withdrawal always is (trippy, and sanity testing). In response I took around 30mg of sublingual HA-966 (an experimental non-GABAergic sedative/anxiolytic), which eventually helped some. Almost took a benzo too, but I held out since benzos set me backwards on this.
Have yet to break into the 3800's (im at around 3905mg) however I will try this week. I thought i was going to get away continuing to feel very little from that but all of a sudden my body has seemed to become of my aware that I'm tricking it with less phenibut.
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
Yes still plan on increasing the rate, just waiting to stabilize to get some perspective.
The other thought i had was to take one large single drop once a week, like say 80 or 100mg. Or even 200mg once every two weeks, etc. In some ways it would be easier since i would have to fumble around with it daily.
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
In the 3,890's tonight, at 3,897mg.
Thus out of the 3,900mg range and into the 3,800mg range. Main problems are waking up too early/ shitty restless sleep. Dreams. Skin burning. Few issues during the day. Some increased physical anxiety, but increased clarity. Some skin burning/parathesia. Not bad. Some decrease in appetite which is unwelcomed, im not a big eater yet exercise a good deal which is a great practice. I struggle to eat naturally, always have. And sleep.
But the sleep thing is a killer for me, thats why i got on phenibut in the first place. I quit gabapentin (which i only used to get off of pregabalin, which in turn i only used to get off of benzos, etc) and was fine during the day but the severe insomnia became unbearable after, no joke, months straight AFTER stopping completely. Meaning I tapered to 0mg of gabapentin (from a high dose), stopped completely, and couldn't sleep for a few months. The insomnia never stopped, it was terrible. But during the day i felt pretty good. In fact i felt great, i just couldn't sleep, so I broke down and knew phenibut would help. And of course it did, they are structurally and pharmacodynamically similar. I did not start phenibut to treat daytime anxiety, i don't get much anxiety relief from phenibut. Sometimes i actually get anxiety from phenibut, its sort of dissociative, with some parallels to GHB dissociation (GABA-B agonists can be trippy, so can compounds with GABA-A affinity, great examples being muscimol and zolpidem).
I suppose i should learn a lesson from this, now that im thinking aloud (see this is why this journal is helpful, to identify past failure points). I failed gabapentinoid withdrawal not due to the daytime anxiety, which wasn't bad at all, but the crushing and unbearable insomnia. The key to get off of phenibut will be through getting past the insomnia. That is the final boss in this "getting off of phenibut" game.
*Perhaps i should start quetiapine (seroquel) at 25mg a night sublingually which would allow me to accelerate this process. Eventually i do become dependent on quetiapine, but its easy to quit. Have had a few multi month run with low dose quetiapine, you do have to wean off it but its easy. Also improves appetite. Might reduce creativity, which i need right now for a variety of reasons. Still, might be worth it. Its while i couldn't handle gabapentin withdrawal and it is definitely the worst phenibut withdrawal symptom. If i can treat the insomnia then i can speed up this process probably considerably. When i wake up at 3:30am i do feel the anxiety. During the day, somewhat but i can ignore. Can't ignore that shit at 4:14am. Plus even when you're asleep its barely sleep, very heavy dreaming activity. Dreaming indicates poor quality light sleep, and ive been dreaming all night long. Phenibut withdrawal dreams can be horrifying, and combined with the parathesia (ie skin crawling) actually hurts, physically. If i can sleep past it this will be pretty easy, relative to say benzos (which is 100% impossible to ignore during the day).
Thus out of the 3,900mg range and into the 3,800mg range. Main problems are waking up too early/ shitty restless sleep. Dreams. Skin burning. Few issues during the day. Some increased physical anxiety, but increased clarity. Some skin burning/parathesia. Not bad. Some decrease in appetite which is unwelcomed, im not a big eater yet exercise a good deal which is a great practice. I struggle to eat naturally, always have. And sleep.
But the sleep thing is a killer for me, thats why i got on phenibut in the first place. I quit gabapentin (which i only used to get off of pregabalin, which in turn i only used to get off of benzos, etc) and was fine during the day but the severe insomnia became unbearable after, no joke, months straight AFTER stopping completely. Meaning I tapered to 0mg of gabapentin (from a high dose), stopped completely, and couldn't sleep for a few months. The insomnia never stopped, it was terrible. But during the day i felt pretty good. In fact i felt great, i just couldn't sleep, so I broke down and knew phenibut would help. And of course it did, they are structurally and pharmacodynamically similar. I did not start phenibut to treat daytime anxiety, i don't get much anxiety relief from phenibut. Sometimes i actually get anxiety from phenibut, its sort of dissociative, with some parallels to GHB dissociation (GABA-B agonists can be trippy, so can compounds with GABA-A affinity, great examples being muscimol and zolpidem).
I suppose i should learn a lesson from this, now that im thinking aloud (see this is why this journal is helpful, to identify past failure points). I failed gabapentinoid withdrawal not due to the daytime anxiety, which wasn't bad at all, but the crushing and unbearable insomnia. The key to get off of phenibut will be through getting past the insomnia. That is the final boss in this "getting off of phenibut" game.
*Perhaps i should start quetiapine (seroquel) at 25mg a night sublingually which would allow me to accelerate this process. Eventually i do become dependent on quetiapine, but its easy to quit. Have had a few multi month run with low dose quetiapine, you do have to wean off it but its easy. Also improves appetite. Might reduce creativity, which i need right now for a variety of reasons. Still, might be worth it. Its while i couldn't handle gabapentin withdrawal and it is definitely the worst phenibut withdrawal symptom. If i can treat the insomnia then i can speed up this process probably considerably. When i wake up at 3:30am i do feel the anxiety. During the day, somewhat but i can ignore. Can't ignore that shit at 4:14am. Plus even when you're asleep its barely sleep, very heavy dreaming activity. Dreaming indicates poor quality light sleep, and ive been dreaming all night long. Phenibut withdrawal dreams can be horrifying, and combined with the parathesia (ie skin crawling) actually hurts, physically. If i can sleep past it this will be pretty easy, relative to say benzos (which is 100% impossible to ignore during the day).
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Yeah my struggle with offing benzos is chronicled around here somewhere and that no sleep was killin me I think literally: At the least it was the root of many other symptoms imo. Madness.
I started phenibut for the exact same reason. Prolly in my first few post here at BL.
Man I do hope the best for ya I know ya got the strength but I def know that feeling of trepidation... constant.
We still here man. Lovely in itself.
1
Nurse Ratched
Bluelight Crew
3 days since I asked how you were doing so enlighten me?
Hope the taper is still going smooth and that you are well.
Hope the taper is still going smooth and that you are well.
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
Sorry I just saw this!
I am down to 3,891mg. Feeling ok and sleep is getting better. Perhaps because i slowed.
I really feel like i need to find a way to address the insomnia. That is where I fail with gabapentinoid withdrawal. Fine during the day but the insomnia causes me to throw in the towel.
theghostofbillhicks
Bluelighter
Melatonin and magnesium help sleep in WD. I’ve trod this awful path out of gaba / benzo addiction and all I can say is I understand the heroic effort. The awful sensations do fade, it’s just time. You’ll get there!
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
3,888mg tonight, pretty sweet.
Not too many effects. Will like to kick it up more.
Already take melatonin nightly, 50mg of diphenhydramine too. Have tried magnesium at many doses, not too noticeable. Agmatine sulfate does work pretty ok but tears a hole in my stomach.
Imagine taking 4g of phenibut nightly for 6 years. When mixed with water phenibut hcl had a pH of 1, ever with a fair amount of water it turns pH paper bright red, instantaneously. Acidic stuff
Not too many effects. Will like to kick it up more.
Already take melatonin nightly, 50mg of diphenhydramine too. Have tried magnesium at many doses, not too noticeable. Agmatine sulfate does work pretty ok but tears a hole in my stomach.
Imagine taking 4g of phenibut nightly for 6 years. When mixed with water phenibut hcl had a pH of 1, ever with a fair amount of water it turns pH paper bright red, instantaneously. Acidic stuff
theghostofbillhicks
Bluelighter
Makes sense. Have you tried taking antacids ?
theghostofbillhicks
Bluelighter
On magnesium - it’s readily absorbed through the skin. Epsom salts are cheap in bulk and bathing in high concentrations of it really helped me through a long withdrawal
Nurse Ratched
Bluelight Crew
Things still going okay with the tapering? How's life treating you these days?
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
Was going to update last night.
3,882mg.
I haven't yet been able to take the larger cuts I've been wanting to do since I've been so busy. I think i do need to address my finding that the success of this is mediated by my ability to address the insomnia.
But regardless, im still going down, at a crawl, but i am going down. This is the most progress I've made in a very long time. Very much appreciate everyone's help here.
I think im going to order some quetiapine from india to address the sleep deficits. But i have some reservations.
Nurse Ratched
Bluelight Crew
Is quetiapine a supplement like kratom and phenibut. I mean does it activate any receptors?
Are you wary because it is addictive?
Glad you're still tapering. Going down at a crawl is better than not at all. Hey that rhymed.
Regards
deficiT
Bluelight Crew
Quetiapine is an atypical antipsychotic with mood stabilizing and sedative effect. Commonly given in low doses in rehab and the like to aid with sleep when detoxing. I'm on it personally for mood disorder, I take 200mg.
It's not traditionally addictive it's a dopamine antagonist primarily. Similar to risperdal, aripiprazole... Older examples of these drugs were thorazine and haldol.
It's really effective in low 12-25mg doses as a sleep aid.
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
No it's an antipsychotic/mood stabilizer when used at high doses but can be used as a sleep aid at low doses. Quetiapine is the only antipsychotic I'd ever take. I have tried the antipsychotic olanzapine and risperdal, only one time each, and they felt horrible. Felt like I got hit in the head with a hammer. Quetiapine is a much weaker of an antipsychotic but is still quite a potent antihistamine at low doses (12.5mg to 50mg), which means one can take advantage of its sedating effects without venturing into the meat-head antipsychotic territory. Yet even then, I've taken up to 100mg of quetiapine (actually i think I've tried up to 200mg) and I didn't feel as gross and dysphoric as I felt from the one time i tried olanzapine and risperidone.
But my concern with taking quetiapine for phenibut withdrawal sleep issues is multifold, essentially:
1. While quetiapine is not addictive or abusable, it is habit-forming. Meaning if you take it with any consistency you will have difficulty sleeping without it. Everytime I've had it around I wind up becoming dependent on it. However it is easy to taper off.
2. I'm concerned about the need to escalate the dose. I've never found the need to exceed 50mg but perhaps the phenibut withdrawal sleep with get bad enough where i will need to. Eventually this might mean that I'd need to take a dose of quetiapine that ventures into the antipsychotic territory.
3. I'm worried that even at 25-50mg i might still be experiencing some mild dopamine antagonism (the antipsychotic feature of the drug). This might negatively impact my musical creativity, which I value immensely since I am actively writing new music on a daily basis.
Overall though, I think I'm going to order some. I think the positive might out weigh the negative. The positive being that I could increase the speed of this phenibut taper significantly. The insomnia is what breaks me with gabapentinoid withdrawal, not the daytime anxiety. I really think this sizeable dose of phenibut is slowing me down and killing my ambition. I already feel a little better from this dose decrease so far.
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
You should also get some trazodone too for your war chest if you don’t already and cycle through your sleep aide drugs. 100-150 mg rage is the limit before it starts modulating serotonin and begins to act like an antidepressant. Cycle through them so that tolerance doesn’t happen too quickly.
Yeah that's not a bad idea. I really am not a fan of trazodone due to the next day dysphoria though. Trazodone has a nasty metabolite (mCPP) that causes a unique dysphoria/anxiety around 18 hours after dosing. That said it is bearable, and trazodone is reasonably effective, so I definitely could alternate between than and trazodone.
In fact i might consider using mirtazapine too. Perhaps i could cycle the following: 25mg quetiapine, 50mg trazodone, 15mg mirtazapine. That way I'd avoid tolerance and dependence.
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
Yeah, not much of a cardio guy but its worth a try. That is probably a much better approach than resorting to more drugs to deal with the insomnia (ie, exhausting myself during the day and general sleep hygiene measures, like going to bed at the same time nightly etc).
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
No i appreciate people bugging me.
I have a bit of issue was gonna post about it. I realized last night that my piece of shit chinese gemini-20 milligram scale is wrong.
Not sure how long it has been, i don't think too long, but i placed the 10g calibration weight on it and instead of 10.000 it read 9.746, which mean I've been taking hundreds of milligrams more on accident. Not sure how long its been, i know i checked it a few weeks ago. Thus, for at least some period of time, I've been taking more than the dose I started at
. Ive been taking around 4,130mg for an unknown amount of time.
I have a backup scale and dropped to 3,975mg last night and slept like shit but im going to try to do a fast taper (like 25mg/night) back to where i was. Fucking bullshit, piece of shit chinese scale. Very upset about this.
I am going to have to check the scale with the 10g weight now each and every time i take it. No wonder why i was sleeping better. Could have been a week or so easy on this dose. Maximum 2 weeks possible. Very distressing
I have a bit of issue was gonna post about it. I realized last night that my piece of shit chinese gemini-20 milligram scale is wrong.
Not sure how long it has been, i don't think too long, but i placed the 10g calibration weight on it and instead of 10.000 it read 9.746, which mean I've been taking hundreds of milligrams more on accident. Not sure how long its been, i know i checked it a few weeks ago. Thus, for at least some period of time, I've been taking more than the dose I started at
. Ive been taking around 4,130mg for an unknown amount of time.I have a backup scale and dropped to 3,975mg last night and slept like shit but im going to try to do a fast taper (like 25mg/night) back to where i was. Fucking bullshit, piece of shit chinese scale. Very upset about this.
I am going to have to check the scale with the 10g weight now each and every time i take it. No wonder why i was sleeping better. Could have been a week or so easy on this dose. Maximum 2 weeks possible. Very distressing
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
***note, I must have been on that higher dose for a fair amount of time. I dropped from that mistaken dose of 4,130mg to 3,975mg last night and feeling like shit today, dissociated, anxious as hell, pins and needles. This sucks. My guess is that i was taking around 250mg more than i thought for a good 10 days. I was hoping it was less.