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Reasoning for/against a creator

extropy said:
your english is fine, it may be mine that's the problem. but perhaps we mean something different by stand alone. i mean stand alone in the sense that from there, nothing else can be truly considered fact. there is no logical step you can take to derive 100% certainty.

i think you're just saying the same thing as before, growth. i don't see how you can prove growth. how can you be certain you're not imagining everything after the cogito?
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I do not think we live in a Matrix type reality.

The statement itself, for most, is a statement with 100% certainty.

If you begin with I think therefore I am, then unless you stop thinking, you will follow time and grow in your learning of life, both physically and mentally.

If we are only imagining life, what a waste it would be, because in Matrix thinking, invented by my own Gnostic Christianity BTW, then you would have to remember that the proof of concept for one Matrix system, is proof of many.

The same condition applies if we would have a proof of concept for a god. It would prove many gods.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
I do not think we live in a Matrix type reality.
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you don't too sound certain.
Gnostic Bishop said:
The statement itself, for most, is a statement with 100% certainty.
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it's not for me. but i would say i'm about 99% convinced this isn't some solipsistic nightmare.
Gnostic Bishop said:
If you begin with I think therefore I am, then unless you stop thinking, you will follow time and grow in your learning of life, both physically and mentally.
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so i did say the kantian version of the cogito where unless i'm mistaken, even thought itself could be considered an illusion. it's merely a recognition of 'something existing'
so how can i be sure it's actually me thinking? what if the Evil Demon is placing these thoughts within my rudimentary awareness and i'm merely observing them?
Gnostic Bishop said:
If we are only imagining life, what a waste it would be, because in Matrix thinking, invented by my own Gnostic Christianity BTW, then you would have to remember that the proof of concept for one Matrix system, is proof of many.
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hmm, was matrix like thinking really invented by the gnostics (whom i admire btw.) the concept of Maya (illusion) was started by the hindus.
 
extropy said:
you don't too sound certain.
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Certain enough to show why I think as I do.

The concept has never been scientifically proven to be either true or false, but the logic of it's proof of concept being proof of many is sound. Think Mandelbrot sets.

extropy said:
it's not for me. but i would say i'm about 99% convinced this isn't some solipsistic nightmare.
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Doubt is always good. It helps prevent gullibility.

extropy said:
so i did say the kantian version of the cogito where unless i'm mistaken, even thought itself could be considered an illusion. it's merely a recognition of 'something existing'
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Yes, and all you know of yourself at that point is that we name "I" internally and as babies, who knows if we even put the term to "I".

extropy said:
so how can i be sure it's actually me thinking? what if the Evil Demon is placing these thoughts within my rudimentary awareness and i'm merely observing them?
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If your Demon is skilled, you cannot ever be sure.

One might wonder what kind of a fool that Demon was and why it had no worthy like.

The whole notion is anti-intuitive for intelligent beings.

Can you picture yourself sitting somewhere controlling the thought an ant or some other lower animal?

Not even a good video game game.

extropy said:
hmm, was matrix like thinking really invented by the gnostics (whom i admire btw.) the concept of Maya (illusion) was started by the hindus.
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That is what I hear but never did the hard research.

Apparently Phillip K Dick introduced it to Hollywood and by now, a huge number of movies have used those notions. There is a long list on the net that I read but never kept track of.

Think Men in Black and it's layers of creation.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
because ----- of the less intelligent people who do not know when a theory is so laden with evidence that only a fool would not accept it as fact and law, even if all the pieces are not in place.

So says notable respected scientists like Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

Sure it is still called a theory, but only supernatural believers and poor thinkers will argue with such.

Regards
DL
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You have major reading comprehension problems and you're insulting on top of it, as usual.

How many times does it have to be explained to you?

It's called the theory of evolution because it's the best current working model. A scientist could come along with a new facet and it could be changed to something else. That's why it's called a theory despite the preponderance of positive evidence in its favour.

I'm pretty much done talking to you about this subject because the wilful ignorance that you cling to in such an antagonistic fashion is both tiring and counterproductive. There is no "law" of evolution like there are physical laws. You are wrong and will always be wrong. Good day to you.
 
The most obvious argument against a divine creator as described by any religion/cult/etc, is that it assigns humans a higher power(eternal life) and generally view the rest of life as lacking souls. I believe this argument is made from equating expressed intelligence and civilization with higher being. The irony of it all is that countless life has been lost over this "divinity", wars fought over who's god is the real god, or even in the name of god(s). Essentially religion brings out the animal hiding in civilization... at least from a historic perspective.

The best argument for no creator or god is the sheer lack of evidence, and that all believers of gods require that one has "faith" aka, belief in something despite evidence of such. Churches love present their followers testimonials as evidence, but in terms of evidence, first hand accounts aren't exactly deemed as credible by most any profession. I don't intend to live my differently because a group of people claim to see and communicate with bigfoot, and I dont see how god and bigfoot differ except one has a much more organized following.
 
there is a ultimate reality that can be accessed just not your limited mind. You have to annhilate yourself on 5meo dmt to get to the highest truth.
 
TripSitterNZ said:
there is a ultimate reality that can be accessed just not your limited mind. You have to annhilate yourself on 5meo dmt to get to the highest truth.
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Thanks for showing your faith based ideas.

What would you call a higher truth?

Examples please.

Regards
DL
 
if the bible is gods book why didn't he give it to everyone ?

Moburg Rum Diary
Hunter Thompson
 
prince_igor said:
if the bible is gods book why didn't he give it to everyone ?

Moburg Rum Diary
Hunter Thompson
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Him and his churches need a lot of cash to move those pedophile priests and victimize the child yet again by making the rape a pay for play and turn the victim into a paid prostitute.

All in the faces of judges and lawyers and price negotiators.

Yahweh screwed Jesus good by volunteering him to die needlessly, so priests and preachers figure they should screw those around them too. Just a guess.

They get free air fare to wherever they want to go hunting young flesh again.

Can you tell I have a pet peeve against our G D mainstream religions and courts on this issue?

That was a rhetorical question.

Regards
DL
 
yep I can tell.

not a believer or a disbeliever myself as its one that at the moment the test of scientific method

has not answered so I just sit on the fence.
 
This thread blew up, cool. I guess I feel isolated because I don't have any beliefs or maybe fundamental beliefs. I'm an atheist because I've never believed in a concept of a god or gods being real life things outside literature. But when others say stuff like prove there's a creator or they use their brand of logic (non-logic to me) and state that a deity or multiple deities/sentient beings wouldn't allow death or pain, it loses me

I mean I guess what I'm saying is that if somebody asked me to prove there isn't a creator, I'd say that there isn't because I don't believe in it. If you believe there is, then maybe there is for you even though my mind tells me such a thing doesn't exist outside myself; my mind being my experience and intuition as well
 
women religion and politics.

any workplace I know hate the three subjects as there is so much passion involved in belief

or lack there of.
 
prince_igor said:
women religion and politics.

any workplace I know hate the three subjects as there is so much passion involved in belief

or lack there of.
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I get what you're saying. I wanted to clarify though that I have nothing against what others believe even if I might not be their friend in real life because of said beliefs. I don't think I could have Christian friends, but that's okay. For me that's just a normal thing to be aware of. I'd be weirded out even if I thought they were nice people or whatever
 
prince_igor said:
yep I can tell.

not a believer or a disbeliever myself as its one that at the moment the test of scientific method

has not answered so I just sit on the fence.
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Hmm.

I think biology has proven scientifically that serpents and donkeys cannot talk and that men cannot walk on water unless it is frozen.

Sit on the fence too long good buddy and the picket might find it's way deeper than you want.

I hope you are using morality over the fear of something or someone to help you decide the worth of our mainstream religions.

Regards
DL
 
Gormur said:
This thread blew up, cool. I guess I feel isolated because I don't have any beliefs or maybe fundamental beliefs. I'm an atheist because I've never believed in a concept of a god or gods being real life things outside literature. But when others say stuff like prove there's a creator or they use their brand of logic (non-logic to me) and state that a deity or multiple deities/sentient beings wouldn't allow death or pain, it loses me

I mean I guess what I'm saying is that if somebody asked me to prove there isn't a creator, I'd say that there isn't because I don't believe in it. If you believe there is, then maybe there is for you even though my mind tells me such a thing doesn't exist outside myself; my mind being my experience and intuition as well
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The title of god is best defined as an elevated person.

Gods are not here to express themselves. Only humans can put words in a gods mouth.

Religions say follow, follow, follow.

If one does not get elevated by following, or is actually lowering themselves by following an evil genocidal god, they show their low moral sense.

Pray for the religious, get moral. Satan has them by the ----

Regards
DL
 
That was kind of the Greco-Roman concept of gods at least, that included dualism. I tend to think a lot of polytheism is or was a bit animistic to where it becomes hard to distinguish animism from polytheistic paganism. This is based on my limited knowledge of course, but that's the impression I get. For example a heathen might not necessarily hold a belief in actual real-life gods when they pray, make oaths, hold feasts, perform weddings or make offerings

Mind you not every religion has a concept of a creator. Once you add a creator it becomes necessary to adopt a belief in it if you want to identify with said religion
 
Gormur said:
Once you add a creator it becomes necessary to adopt a belief in it if you want to identify with said religion
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True.

You have to lie to yourself, set your morals aside, and vote the party line.

That is how Trump got elected.

Lying religions are just as evil as that lying prick.

Regards
DL
 
Gnostic Bishop said:
Hmm.

I think biology has proven scientifically that serpents and donkeys cannot talk and that men cannot walk on water unless it is frozen.

Sit on the fence too long good buddy and the picket might find it's way deeper than you want.

I hope you are using morality over the fear of something or someone to help you decide the worth of our mainstream religions.

Regards
DL
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ah again your treating religion like a white man.

personally I think there is a little truth in all religions and I have found that I can do the most good

in this world if I do not alienate others by having an inflexible view on others beliefs.

im not religious yet

I love christmass with my family

I love chinese new year and I have done Ramadan so I could see what it was like.

I am happy to go to peoples churches with them too.

I lean more to your side of beliefs but find that the worst thing you can do to someone is steal there

religious beliefs from them.

it defines many people in ways us non believers do not understand.

there families believe and there communities.

many use there belief as a moral compass and a way to celebrate there history and ancestors.

all revelations need to be found on our own and pushing something like you have to choose

actually divides the population.

so I believe in everything and nothing.

I have learnt so much from others due to this stance and I insult so few it is very effective.
 
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