Police Brutality Thread

[birdup.snaildown]

Well, refuting the study I posted for starters. You just dismissed it because it was, in your opinion, nonsensical. The full text of the study is available on the link I posted. The statistics are properly analysed and the study is extensively referenced. Right now you're basically saying your opinion trumps the facts I posted. If the study is nonsensical, where is/are the error/s?

I already explained what is (in my opinion) wrong with the study.

Studies aren't indisputably "factual" because they're studies.

which leads communities to rely less on the formal justice system and resolve disputes internally and informally

The murders during BLM protests that follow the fatal police shootings of unarmed Black people don't fit this description. They are not "disputes being resolved internally". They are people murdering each other in the name of anti-murder. The conclusion of the study you cited is so unscientific that I have no desire to analyse it any further.

What I reject is the suggestion that police don't need to change.

I never said that.

There needs to be more acceptance that fault lies on both sides.

Agreed. 100%.

The focus is too much on police and not enough on the core problems that contribute to massively inflated crime rates within African American communities. I'm not suggesting that the police are infallible. I never have. But, BLM should focus on the real issue which is an internal issue.

If you're interested, I suggest you look up some videos with Thomas Sowell. He is a highly respected Black academic that has studied this stuff for 30 years. He has written over twenty books on the subject. He is as sharp as they come. I've watched all of his interviews and read a couple of his books. He is a fascinating, brilliant man.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

Where is the evidence for this?

Media and social media spearheaded the 'defund the police' thing, I would wager that certainly increases 'legal cynicism'.

In that sense I understand birdup very well, because normalcy vanishes and that is frustrating. On the one hand it's good that it (the 'fact' that the US police department does have issues) gets attention, but I would agree that the way often isn't ideal, counter productive, and clouded by too much hysteria. MSM capitalizes because they gotta get clicks somewhere, especially now that Trump is gone.



Insane and unnecessary, and for once I'm not talking about the military spending.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I don't get how spending less money on police is going to help?

 

[Phoenix_03]

I'm sure there are some racists cops in the US. There are racist teachers too and racist journalists. These people need to be dealt with on an individual basis. It doesn't reflect on teachers or cops who are not racist.

I'm not going to just assume that a significant portion of police are racist, but (even if they were racist) they can still act impartially. Racist teachers aren't going to expose themselves as racists in this climate and neither are cops. Neither group can get away with it.

Police in the US are crucified - and branded racists - for accidentally killing people... maybe this hidden racism that is raging inside people like Chauvin and Potter suddenly drives them to kill... or maybe they legitimately fucked up. We don't know.

American police are definitely harsher in the US than in Australia, but if you zoom in there are lots of areas that aren't heavily policed. Cops act differently in small towns than they do in Detroit.



Opportunity exists.

I agree, I'm not going to assume all police officers are racist just because I encountered a few that are. Way too many Americans take this stance and I've heard a few people say they "hate cops" after hearing news stories about the Floyd case, or any others like it. Even though I absolutely agree that Chauvin should be charged with something for his role in Floyd's death, I don't now "hate" every single police officer in America. I have no idea if Chauvin is racist, but I blame the media for putting that spin on all of these police brutality cases. Even without knowing that information, somehow in my head Floyd being African American feels like it's relevant, when it most likely isn't. Racism will never go away if we constantly blame every situation on someone's skin color.

 

[Phoenix_03]

No, he had it in his hands. At any time when the policeman showed up he could have dropped the gun, surrendered with his hands up, and been questioned by the cop or been arrested but he made the choice to keep the gun, run with it, and threaten or keep holding the gun. He was still holding the gun milliseconds before he was shot.

If you do stupid things like joining a violent gang, shooting people or pointing or having a gun or a weapon near a cop do not be surprised when you get shot and killed.

They can aim for a leg or shoulder, something nonfatal

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Data Lacking on Non-Fatal Police Shootings - The Crime Report

There were 1,000 fatal shootings by police officers in 2020, but the overall picture of officer gun violence remains murky. One criminologist estimates that there were an additional 820 non-fatal shootings by officers.

thecrimereport.org

 

[Jabberwocky]

If you take a quick glance, it seems like Black people are being hunted down by the police because of the colour of their skin... but if you look deeper into it, there are contributing factors that extend beyond race.

That’s exactly what every halfway educated liberal believes. They call those ‘contributing factors’, structural factors (as in Structural Racism). They may not be overtly racist but they nonetheless manifest as explanatory variables in the analysis of racialised social outcomes.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

They can aim for a leg or shoulder, something nonfatal

True, it was very dark and a split second decision, so I do not think this was an option? Firing a gun is not like it is shown in film and TV, or like if you have ever done target practice or have been to a shooting range.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Atelier3

Looking at things through the lens of race is useful in certain situations, but not everything is race related. People are focusing too much on the race angle at the expense of more serious issues.

...

If you're poor, you're more likely to commit crime. Black people (apparently?) are poor because of white people. So, it all comes back to racism in the end.

If we accept that as true, what is the solution?

Somebody mentioned reparations before.

How much money do you give each Black American?

There are 44 million black people in the US. If you give each of them $20,000 would that be enough? 20k isn't going to last you long in this world... and that's already a grand total of 880 billion taxpayer dollars.

 

[alasdairm]

Maybe he dropped the gun when shot?

he did not.

he dropped the gun and raised his hard when the cop shouted. and he was shot.

alasdair

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

@Atelier3

Looking at things through the lens of race is useful in certain situations, but not everything is race related. People are focusing too much on the race angle at the expense of more serious issues.

...

If you're poor, you're more likely to commit crime. Black people (apparently?) are poor because of white people. So, it all comes back to racism in the end.

If we accept that as true, what is the solution?

Somebody mentioned reparations before.

How much money do you give each Black American?

There are 44 million black people in the US. If you give each of them $20,000 would that be enough? 20k isn't going to last you long in this world... and that's already a grand total of 880 billion taxpayer dollars.

There is no way to accurately 1,000% tell who has ancestors that were slaves in the USA. Not all black people in the USA have ancestors who were slaves.

The Spanish and Portuguese enslaved and transported way more African slaves to South America than the Dutch, Spanish, and British transported to what is now the USA.

Arabs were much more brutal with Sub-Saharan African slaves, would use them for labor, or rape them, and then kill them and go and capture more or buy them from other Sub-Saharan tribes. The Arab-African slave trade started Centuries before the European slave trade, and it still goes on today.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

he did not.

he dropped the gun and raised his hard when the cop shouted. and he was shot.

alasdair

People who play with fire, get burned.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

If you tease or poke a bear, do not be surprised when it bites you head off.

Adam 'lil homicide' Toledo wanted to be a street thug and was in a gang so he was killed like the criminal he is by not surrendering when the police told him to stop running, so he got his wish.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Phoenix_03]

Unfortunately, that’s not how the police are trained. Cops aren’t trained to shoot to wound. It takes a skilled marksman to hit someone exactly in the arm or leg, and most officers are not skilled marskmen. In fact, outside of an old-fashioned TV Western, few people can make that shot, no matter the training. Police officers are trained to shoot as many rounds as necessary at the threat they are confronted with until the threat is neutralized. They are trained to fire until the suspect is unable to shoot or in some other way injure the officer, other police or bystanders.

In fact, the Supreme Court ruled in 1994 that officers do not have to use less lethal force before resorting to deadly force. For instance, an officer does not have to use a Taser before he or she uses a gun in a situation. As a policy, shooting to wound would be a really bad idea because it would give the police permission to take their gun out of the holster under any circumstance. It would lower the legal threshold for the use of deadly force if that was the case.

Interesting. I was under the impression that police should be using their non lethal subduing methods for the most part, and the guns were last resort. I see your point about how difficult it would be to hit a specific (moving) target, like an arm or leg. As someone who has never shot a gun, or even held one, I imagined it being easier to hit someone anywhere to wound than versus in the head, or a specific kill shot.

 

[Phoenix_03]

True, it was very dark and a split second decision, so I do not think this was an option? Firing a gun is not like it is shown in film and TV, or like if you have ever done target practice or to a shooting range.

I haven't, and TV/movies definitely gives the impression that it's easy to shoot someone. I think I assumed the cop would even have a choice

 

[Phoenix_03]

@Atelier3

Looking at things through the lens of race is useful in certain situations, but not everything is race related. People are focusing too much on the race angle at the expense of more serious issues.

...

If you're poor, you're more likely to commit crime. Black people (apparently?) are poor because of white people. So, it all comes back to racism in the end.

If we accept that as true, what is the solution?

Somebody mentioned reparations before.

How much money do you give each Black American?

There are 44 million black people in the US. If you give each of them $20,000 would that be enough? 20k isn't going to last you long in this world... and that's already a grand total of 880 billion taxpayer dollars.

A lot of black people I know personally find the whole reparations concept offensive. Like they're such failures they need a hand out from white people? Which I get, but at the same time we're not talking about two groups that did not start the race at the same starting line. Whites have the advantage and many obstacles have been put in the black man's way. But, like you said, what price do you put on the suffering of whole generations of people? People who are going to be next to impossible to prove relation since barely any birth or death records for slaves were kept.

 

[alasdairm]

so he got his wish

i don't presume to know what he wished.

but, again, your point is made and you're happy somebody is dead.

alasdair

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Whites have the advantage and many obstacles have been put in the black man's way.

Africa is a bigger obstacle than anything put in African Americans way. White people had the advantage long before the slave trade. Do we have thousands of years of "privilege" because our ancestors were more successful?

But, like you said, what price do you put on the suffering of whole generations of people?

I don't. I'd rather be descended from slaves and living in the US than still living in Africa. People in Africa aren't exactly wealthy; the enslavement of their ancestors resulted in them having more opportunity in that department, not less.

Assuming I did believe in reparations: the US can't afford to put a market-value price tag on slavery. If George Floyd gets 27 million dollars, what is the value of a couple of centuries of slavery? It is way too high.

 

[Phoenix_03]

Africa is a bigger obstacle than anything put in African Americans way. White people had the advantage long before the slave trade. Do we have thousands of years of "privilege" because our ancestors were more successful?



I don't. I'd rather be descended from slaves and living in the US than still living in Africa. People in Africa aren't exactly wealthy; the enslavement of their ancestors resulted in them having more opportunity in that department, not less.

Assuming I did believe in reparations: the US can't afford to put a market-value price tag on slavery. If George Floyd gets 27 million dollars, what is the value of a couple of centuries of slavery? It is way too high.

We have privilege partly because we have had the power for so long. Everything I said was applicable to America, I didn't factor in outside countries/continents. Though people in Africa were taking part in the slave trade by selling their fellow countrymen.

I know you didn't say a price, I meant a general "you", i quoted you because I agreed with you.

 

[Xorkoth]

Distrust is being fabricated by the MSM and social media feeding people a never ending torrent of lies about how much Black people are oppressed and how the police are bloodthirsty monsters.

It is being stoked to new heights by the MSM, but mistrust of police has been going on for a long time, far longer than this current political climate. Since the 80s at the very least, but probably well before that. I wouldn't know personally since I wasn't alive before the 80s.

I don't get how spending less money on police is going to help?

It's about spending the money differently. "defund the police" is not really the original message of the movement, though some far-left liberals have tried to make it that, people who foolishly think that we don't need police in a functioning society. The original message was about reallocating funds to be spent differently. Right now, we are using the funding to buy military weapons and even tanks to police departments. Instead, the original movement says, we should be spending much of that money not on tanks and military weapons, but instead of better training, mental health services for the population and for the police, and working to reduce ;poverty, which is a huge correlating factor in violent police encounters in the first place. No one you should be taking seriously is actually trying to say we should no longer fund police departments. The MSM tries to make it seem like that's what all the liberals want, but that is simply not true. Sensible people who support police reform want the money spent on police departments to be spent differently than it is, in a more sensible and holistic way, that's all.

 

[cduggles]

People in Africa aren't exactly wealthy

My expertise is mainly in subSaharan Africa, where there are huge disparities in wealth, and the people who are wealthy there are quite rich, even by Western standards.