Police Brutality Thread

[aemetha]

It's plainly obvious if a certain group of people commit more crime, they are going to be more likely to encounter police and (therefore) more likely to be fatally shot by police.

Okay, fair point. Consider these two groups though. People in the United States. People in Australia/New Zealand. The homicide rate is 6 times higher in the United States, the rate of police killing suspects is 15 times higher. Even accepting your theory that the issue is related in increased crime, the police response to that is disproportionate.

New Zealand police are too soft. Ask anyone from NZ.

Australian sentences are a fucking joke.

And yet the violent crime rate in both countries is 6 times lower than that of the US. Perhaps police in these countries aren't "soft" as you put it, but rather "smart".

 

[birdup.snaildown]

No, NZ police are too soft.

I didn't say Australian police are too soft... I said Australian sentences are too soft.

the violent crime rate in both countries is 6 times lower than that of the US

If you break down the crime rate by region, it tells a different story though.

The homicide rate in Victoria Australia is higher than 12 US states. A large amount of the crime in the USA is concentrated to certain problematic areas. You'd think (if the problem was gun control or police reform) that US crime would be relatively consistent across the country?

Even accepting your theory that the issue is related in increased crime, the police response to that is disproportionate.

Show me the maths.

 

[aemetha]

Show me the maths.

Seriously?
1:1 = proportionate
15/6:1 = 2.5:1

 

[CfZrx]

What do you believe will happen or that the outcome of the trial will be?

This is the full video:

After I saw the cop's POV cam, it seems like he will not be found guilty, or if he is, it will not be severe. The poor Floyd guy was being a total prick, at least the minute I saw. It was uncalled for to kneel on his neck though. You can literally see the insanity in Chauvin's facial expressions. He is a certifiable madman.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Seriously?
1:1 = proportionate
15/6:1 = 2.5:1

I mean cite your sources. Show me the actual data you're working with. I will break it down by race and region.

 

[aemetha]

Violent Crime Rates by Country 2022

worldpopulationreview.com

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@aemetha

Thanks. I misread what you wrote before... Comparing Australia and the US (in terms of homicides vs fatal police shootings) isn't going to give you an accurate picture of what is happening. There are lots of other factors to take into account. I don't have time to do a thorough analysis.

I'll use numbers from your source:

The US homicide rate is 5.35/100k
Canada sits at 1.68/100k
(US = 3.18 times Canada.)

There are 28.4/million cases of people being fatally shot by cops in the US.
Canada sits at 9.7/million.
(US = 2.93 times Canada)

3.18:2.93 - proportionate.

I don't think it's fair to compare countries like Australia & NZ because they never had major crime problems to begin with... and, even before the buyback programs, nobody walked around carrying guns. It makes more sense to compare Canada and the US.

...

In 2019, 56% of all homicides in the US were committed by African Americans. If you separate homicide by race you get:

Black homicides = 22.15 / 100k
Non-Black homicides = 2.72 / 100k

So the homicide rate is over 8 times higher.
Now let's do what you did with the number of homicides vs police killings.

US citizens shot fatally by police, averaged across four years:

Black = 227 = 5.12 / million
Non-Black = 803 = 2.82 / million

The rate that Black people are fatally shot by police is less than twice the rate non-Black people are fatally shot... So do we conclude (since the homicide rate is 8 times higher) that white people are being disproportionately shot by police?

People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2023 | Statista

The trend of fatal police shootings seems to only be increasing in the U.S., with a total 639 civilians shot to death by police as of August 28, 2023.

www.statista.com

 

[aemetha]

Where did you source your police killings data? The data I sourced for that was from 2019 (most recent available) which had the US killing 34.8 per 10,000,000 and Canada killing 9.7 per 10,000,000. The difference between that and your data is massive.

34.8/9.7 = US 3.59 times Canada's rate of police killings.

3.59:2.93 =/= proportionate. That's definitely a statistically significant difference. I will concede it's a smaller difference than the Australasia comparison, but still very significant.

I will also concede that higher homicide rates are likely to lead to higher incidence of police use of force, but clearly it's not the only difference.

I am curious, what's the end game of your argument? Even if high violent crime rates are the major driver of police use of force, doesn't that make the police at fault anyway? There seems to me to be a conflict of interest where police can move resources from preventing violent crime in order to justify more use of force on their part.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@aemetha

3.59:2.93 =/= proportionate. That's definitely a statistically significant difference. I will concede it's a smaller difference than the Australasia comparison, but still very significant.

No. That is not statistically significant, particularly when you consider the fact that we aren't taking into account all sorts of other crimes and contributing factors.

I cited the source of my data in my previous post. My data was averaged across four years (2017-2020). The source you cited has only one cited source: wikipedia. My source was Statista Research Department.

Even if high violent crime rates are the major driver of police use of force, doesn't that make the police at fault anyway?

No.

I am curious, what's the end game of your argument?

I don't have an end game. Just analysing the data and trying to establish the reason for police using deadly force in the USA. I don't believe it's racist. I don't believe black people are being shot disproportionately simply because they're black.

BLM exists in Australia as well. There was a royal commission about 20 years ago that examined deaths of indigenous people in custody. If you examine the data, it's clear that there are (non racist) reasons for this too.

 

[dalpat077]

Good morning again everyone.

Not much to contribute really. But I'll work my way backwards and see.

This being said: I have read all of the posts and in particular the last few where numbers and statistics are being presented and discussed. Hats off to the two of you for going to such trouble.

Given the population over there: there simply isn't an issue based on the figures and statistics presented. Especially when you consider the population size. And here I was under the impression that law enforcement were offing people of color in record numbers on a daily basis. Worse still was the notion that black people were being singled out and offed in record numbers on a daily basis. But that's the power of the media (all of it) is it not. Not to mention the Internet. It just depends on who is pushing what narrative. And who takes all of this shit at face value. Well. Carry on. Not my problem obviously. But I put it to you that this shit is costing the American taxpayer a LOT of money (and I'm not talking about just these ridiculous settlements).

And looking at all of these figures and statistics: the socioeconomic issues are what should be being addressed. That is not law enforcement's problem. And they are not to blame for the same. If anything: they're being scapegoated and thrown under the bus.

Somebody made a good comment in the comments section of one of the videos showing the riots that broke out as a result of that innocent angel being sent on his way. To the effect that if you want to solve the police brutality problem the solution is pretty simple: don't call the police (when there's shootings or riots or whatever else in your area). To add (from my side); you can apply that to almost all of the cases that have been mentioned on this thread. In particular Mr. Floyd's of course. One or two of the others? Do away with traffic stops i.e. let those under the influence (of any substance) drive around freely (or get away after being nabbed and continue their little journey because they were lucky enough to be able to get away after an attempt was being made to take them into custody).

That's about it (pending me going through some of the other posts and maybe passing comment) (but I'm now leaning toward the notion "nothing to see here").

Oh fuck me. As I was about to hit the "Post reply" button this just come over the radio news now:

The South African Government is now being called on to intervene in the little Hawaii incident. Because why? Apparently shots were fired BEFORE the officers identified themselves. You know where THIS is going to go I suppose. Best case scenario: somebody gonna get a nice payout! If his wife has any sense: she'd come back here (because of the exchange rate)!

 

[dalpat077]

Statista Research Department

Statistically correct? Maybe. Neutral? No way. Just read the notes. Exactly what I'm talking about.

Add up "Hispanic", "Other", and "Unknown". The numbers don't look that black (no pun intended) anymore. Add "Black" to that and then compare it to "White"?

Narrative baby! Narrative!

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@dalpat077

It's hard to find a neutral source, particularly when you're lazy and you just Google stuff.

Add up "Hispanic", "Other", and "Unknown". The numbers don't look that black (no pun intended) anymore. Add "Black" to that and then compare it to "White"?

Indeed. People see all these news stories about Black people being shot by police and they assume the statistics are considerably different than they are.

Take 2020 for example.

Black people shot dead by police: 241 ( 23.6% )
White people shot dead by police: 457 ( 44.8% )
Hispanic people shot dead by police: 169 ( 16.6% )
Other people shot dead by police: 28 ( 2.7% )
Unknown people shot dead by police: 126 ( 12.3% )

Considering that Black people committed nearly 60% of the homicides, 23.6% seems like quite a low number to me.

More white people are shot by police than Black people.

If a black person and a white person encounter a police officer, the white person is statistically more likely to be fatally shot.

 

[dalpat077]

It's hard to find a neutral source, particularly when you're lazy and you just Google stuff.

I'm not pointing fingers at you or at your link. Just making the point that anybody can fudge statistics and present them in whatever manner suits. And that is causing shit.

That and the fact that only idiots like us will take the time and go to the trouble of analyzing this stuff and seeing it for what it is. Most, if it suits, will act on the headline and the headline only.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

We live in a dangerous new world where people's feelings are more important than facts.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

We live in a dangerous new world where people's feelings are more important than facts.

True, I pretty much agree with you, but there might be a couple things you're overlooking.

The solution (to Black people being shot by police) involves fixing the core problems in the US that cause African Americans to disproportionately commit various crimes. I don't believe the problem can be fixed by reforming police, because police are not the core of the problem.

This might be somewhat harder to judge if you're not an American, but from what I've seen there's a definite problem within police departments in regards to violence. It probably grew organically through decades of a lot of crime, so it isn't an unfeasible thing that police departments kinda lost track of their original purposes, + a lack of training in certain aspects.
You can pin this on civilians since they're the ones committing the crimes, but cops inherently have the responsibility to be better, there's no solving problems in solely blaming the other. After decades of built up distrust, things are bound to go wrong both ways.
The atmosphere of encounters, and even the atmosphere within a particular police department, in addition to race, place etc... does so much, and it should be cops and police departments taking the first steps. People lose track of their purpose in the everyday chaos, politicians suffer from the same affliction, but it's literally their job to develop a more healthy relationship with the people, even if many of the factors are out of their hands (like distrust against the 'system') Lastly, it's really not an outlandish claim that many cops are pretty racist, there's been strong racial tensions in the US since it's dawn, and this doesn't only reflect in shootings. I trust that much of the rage stems from first and second hand experience, and an inherent distrust against 'the system' (not unfounded if you see the incarceration rate, propaganda media, incompetent politicians and a lot of social welfare stuff), something which is impossible to reflect in numbers.

Politicians have shown no interest in fixing these issues, so things can escalate more and more, or the police can be better where they can be better, and hope that after x amount of years a more healthy relationship exists.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

There's a middle ground @dalpat077 I understand the frustrations since similar dynamics manifest itself in many topics, but I believe you feel the need to push too much the one way, understandable but unnecessary it's somehow treading quite close to what you would accuse the other side of doing.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Buzz Lightbeer

I never said there wasn't a problem with police brutality. I've said the opposite repeatedly. The question I was addressing is whether or not the police murder Black people in the United States because of the colour of their skin. The statistics do not support this.

I honestly think the police has gotten better over time in most countries, including the US. Sometimes when you take two steps forwards, you take one backwards... But, it is certainly an upward trend.

cops inherently have the responsibility to be better, there's no solving problems in solely blaming the other

Floyd has a responsibility to not be a stain on society.

Agreed about blame though...
In this case, I blame both Chauvin and Floyd.

After decades of built up distrust, things are bound to go wrong both ways.

Distrust is being fabricated by the MSM and social media feeding people a never ending torrent of lies about how much Black people are oppressed and how the police are bloodthirsty monsters.

Lastly, it's really not an outlandish claim that many cops are pretty racist

Define many. Define pretty.

this doesn't only reflect in shootings

It doesn't reflect in the shootings.

Politicians have shown no interest in fixing these issues

I disagree. An enormous amount of progress has already been made. Politicians are campaigning on justice reform. Entire police departments are being rebuilt from the ground up... What do you expect?

 

[assclass]

We live in a dangerous new world where people's feelings are more important than facts.

My feelings are hurt when we dont use facts to make policy.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

I never said there wasn't a problem with police brutality. I've said the opposite repeatedly.

Alright then, then we're almost on the same page I didn't read through the whole thread

Floyd has a responsibility to not be a stain on society.

Eh....

Distrust is being fabricated by the MSM and social media feeding people a never ending torrent of lies about how much Black people are oppressed and how the police are bloodthirsty monsters.

True, but likely on top of first and second hand experience, hard to say from a safe European perspective. From my perspective it seems like encounters with American police are much harsher and unforgiving, with a different attitude of the police officer to it (random police stops are an excellent example). Random police stops are quite insane imo, but that aside. This also builds into the distrust, and it could certainly be that there is some amount of racial profiling there. Haven't read any research though.

Define many. Define pretty.

I cannot! And I don't have the time to go backing this up with actual research but my gut says that it's not a negligible percentage, given centuries of racism. The key is 'not negligible', I would probably agree that it's overblown and not the core of the issue, but going too much the other way is disingenuous.
If you want a number, some would say almost 50%, Trump supporters.. jk

It doesn't reflect in the shootings.

OK

I disagree. An enormous amount of progress has already been made. Politicians are campaigning on justice reform. Entire police departments are being rebuilt from the ground up... What do you expect?

The living standard to go up instead of down, but let's not go into this.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I'm sure there are some racists cops in the US. There are racist teachers too and racist journalists. These people need to be dealt with on an individual basis. It doesn't reflect on teachers or cops who are not racist.

I'm not going to just assume that a significant portion of police are racist, but (even if they were racist) they can still act impartially. Racist teachers aren't going to expose themselves as racists in this climate and neither are cops. Neither group can get away with it.

Police in the US are crucified - and branded racists - for accidentally killing people... maybe this hidden racism that is raging inside people like Chauvin and Potter suddenly drives them to kill... or maybe they legitimately fucked up. We don't know.

American police are definitely harsher in the US than in Australia, but if you zoom in there are lots of areas that aren't heavily policed. Cops act differently in small towns than they do in Detroit.

The living standard to go up instead of down

Opportunity exists.