Police Brutality Thread

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

So now you're backing away from the "if he had just dropped the gun" argument. Now it's changed to "if he had just dropped it sooner". Interesting.

Did you watch the full unedited video?

He had multiple chances to drop the gun, stop running, turn around, and surrender peacefully but kept holding the gun and the cop shot him and this is justified as he had a gun and was firing it. His gloves had gunpowder residue on them, and the gun matched shell casings from shots fired.

Would you have preferred if the cop was not armed, said "Hey kid, drop the gun?" and got shot and killed instead?

Chicago police say bodycam footage shows less than a second passes from when 13-year-old is seen holding a handgun and is shot by officer

Authorities released body-worn camera footage that shows an officer making a split-second decision to fire a single shot that killed 13-year-old Adam Toledo after the boy is seen holding a handgun at the end of a foot chase, according to police.

www.cnn.com

 

[Zephyn]

Did you watch the full unedited video?

He had multiple chances to drop the gun, stop running, turn around, and surrender peacefully but kept holding the gun and the cop shot him and this is justified as he had a gun and was firing it. His gloves had gunpowder residue on them, and the gun matched shell casings from shots fired.

Would you have preferred if the cop was not armed, said "Hey kid, drop the gun?" and got shot and killed instead?

Chicago police say bodycam footage shows less than a second passes from when 13-year-old is seen holding a handgun and is shot by officer

Authorities released body-worn camera footage that shows an officer making a split-second decision to fire a single shot that killed 13-year-old Adam Toledo after the boy is seen holding a handgun at the end of a foot chase, according to police.

www.cnn.com

from what was obviously observable, the punk thought he was going to get away and keep his gun. i don't think he ever intended to kill anyone, and he certainly never threatened the cop, only dropping the gun when he realized he wasn't getting away, never intending any kind of shoot out. i agree him shooting at that random car or whatever was not cool, but making a really bad decision like that might mean he is no angel, but it doesnt mean he gets the death penalty.

 

[alasdairm]

but kept holding the gun and the cop shot him

absolutely false. you initially said he has the gun in his hands when he was shot. i've demonstrated that is false.

then you changed your story. even you can't get your own story straight...

alasdair

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Where do you expect a 9 year old to learn that? Where does a 9 year old even learn about suicide ?

9 year olds can look up anything they want on the internet, watch violent films or videos of people being killed, etc.

Or maybe she heard about suicide and murder from the news?

It is not like it was when I was 9 and there was no internet, and if you wanted to see what were claimed to be videos of people being killed you had to watch the faces of death films on VHS.

I didn't watch those films as a child, but today if young kids want to watch much more graphic videos they easily can.

 

[Zephyn]

9 year olds can look up anything they want on the internet, watch violent films or videos of people being killed, etc.

Or maybe she heard about suicide and murder from the news?

It is not like it was when I was 9 and there was no internet, and if you wanted to see what were claimed to be videos of people being killed you had to watch the faces of death films on VHS.

I didn't watch those films as a child, but today if young kids want to watch much more graphic videos they easily can.

i mean true, i guess. i got into some pretty dark and intense shit on the internet at only 12-13, but still, 9? i dunno, i still had 56k when i was like 12.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

absolutely false. you initially said he has the gun in his hands when he was shot. i've demonstrated that is false.

then you changed your story. even you can't get your own story straight...

alasdair

Maybe he dropped the gun when shot? Either way he was a violent threat that was eliminated.

His nicknames were 'lil homicide', and 'baby diablo' he was in a gang, and had a gun, and made the choice to join a gang, be a thug, fire a gun, etc.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

So now you're backing away from the "if he had just dropped the gun" argument. Now it's changed to "if he had just dropped it sooner". Interesting.

He's also a gang member who had just gotten done firing 8 rounds at passing cars with an accomplice and had a gun in his hand a split-second prior to being shot. This cop made a split-second life/death decision in the dark of night, knowing he had a violent suspect with a gun that the suspect was firing.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@aemetha

But that's been my argument all along. That there are all sorts of contributing factors, which should be analysed. You can't just arbitrarily exclude data because it doesn't suit your argument.

You made an argument that 2.93:3.59 is not proportionate. You were using the wrong numbers. Both of those numbers were ratios of US/Canada police shootings. I averaged mine across four years. So you were saying that something isn't proportionate to itself. But, ignoring that, you made other comparisons (like 6:15) about homicide rates not mimicking police shooting rates. I said, right at the beginning of our discussion, that homicide rate is a single factor.

No? Police are not the primary agency responsible for reducing violent crime?

That's not what you said. You asked me if it is the police's fault. I said no.

Again, not an argument I've made.

Didn't say you did make that argument.

This is getting silly. This debate has basically become: me "US police kill more people than similar countries" you "They aren't racist". I appreciate the civil discussion, but you're just not arguing the same subject as me. It's baffling.

The topic on this thread is broad. I responded to your point about the US police killing more people than similar countries, by providing a comparison between Canada and the USA. I also broke the stats down by race and made a point about whether or not racism is the reason more people are being killed.

Not sure how any of it is silly or baffling, but happy to leave it there.

 

[aemetha]

You made an argument that 2.93:3.59 is not proportionate. You were using the wrong numbers. Both of those numbers were ratios of US/Canada police shootings. I averaged mine across four years. So you were saying that something isn't proportionate to itself. But, ignoring that, you made other comparisons (like 6:15) about homicide rates not mimicking police shooting rates. I said, right at the beginning of our discussion, that homicide rate is a single factor.

Okay, so your premise is that US rates of police-involved killings reflect higher US homicide rates. This study actually analysed homicide rates using several regressions in the wake of protested police-involved killings and found the reverse. Police-involved killings predicted significantly higher homicide rates. I would contend that the high homicide rates seen in the US are not a justification for police-involved killings, but rather caused (in part) by police-involved killings.

The conclusion of that study:

In the post-Ferguson Era, cities experiencing protests following police-involved deaths saw substantial increases in homicides and, to a lesser extent, aggravated assaults. While the precise mechanism is unclear the findings are in line with the a priori hypothesis that police abuses increase legal cynicism, which leads communities to rely less on the formal justice system and resolve disputes internally and informally, which is unfortunately more violent.

 

[Zephyn]

Okay, so your premise is that US rates of police-involved killings reflect higher US homicide rates. This study actually analysed homicide rates using several regressions in the wake of protested police-involved killings and found the reverse. Police-involved killings predicted significantly higher homicide rates. I would contend that the high homicide rates seen in the US are not a justification for police-involved killings, but rather caused (in part) by police-involved killings.

The conclusion of that study:

id say they are mostly unrelated, although maybe a higher incidence with the easier access to firearms. (which i dont necessarily not support)

 

[birdup.snaildown]

so your premise is that US rates of police-involved killings reflect higher US homicide rates

Not exactly. I demonstrated clearly that there appears to be a proportional relationship between Canada and the USA. There are roughly three times the homicides and roughly three times the police shootings. But, there are many factors that contribute. Like I said initially, I don't have the time to do a thorough analysis.

You said your argument was "police kill more in the US than similar countries". As I pointed out, Australia and NZ are not similar countries. It makes more sense to compare the US with Canada. Lo and behold, three times the murders mean three times the fatal police shootings. Do you have an alternative explanation for Canada? This is your argument, remember?

Now you're quoting something about protests causing homicides. BLM and the MSM is responsible for this violence more than the police. I've already demonstrated that white people (not Black people) are shot disproportionately. I couldn't be bothered doing a thorough analysis. I limited the numbers to homicides. You could argue that this doesn't reflect other violent crimes. I put it to you that all violent crimes are committed disproportionately by African Americans. You can verify this yourself, if you like. I'm not "arbitrarily excluding" anything.

The conclusion of that study:

In the post-Ferguson Era, cities experiencing protests following police-involved deaths saw substantial increases in homicides and, to a lesser extent, aggravated assaults. While the precise mechanism is unclear the findings are in line with the a priori hypothesis that police abuses increase legal cynicism, which leads communities to rely less on the formal justice system and resolve disputes internally and informally, which is unfortunately more violent.

The conclusion of this study is, frankly, nonsense.

First of all, there is a difference between police fatally shooting someone and police "abuse".

Secondly, they are drawing a broad conclusion about police based on murders committed during BLM protests. It is insane to call police officers murderers because they fatally shot someone like Breonna Taylor when her boyfriend shot at them first... but it is a whole other level of crazy to then blame the same police for murderous rioters.

Lastly, it is BLM (and the MSM and social media and certain people in this thread) that increase legal cynicism.

 

[Zephyn]

Not exactly. I demonstrated clearly that there appears to be a proportional relationship between Canada and the USA. There are roughly three times the homicides and roughly three times the police shootings. But, there are many factors that contribute. Like I said initially, I don't have the time to do a thorough analysis.

You said your argument was "police kill more in the US than similar countries". As I pointed out, Australia and NZ are not similar countries. It makes more sense to compare the US with Canada. Lo and behold, three times the murders mean three times the fatal police shootings. Do you have an alternative explanation for Canada? This is your argument, remember?

Now you're quoting something about protests causing homicides. BLM and the MSM is responsible for this violence more than the police. I've already demonstrated that white people (not Black people) are shot disproportionately. I couldn't be bothered doing a thorough analysis. I limited the numbers to homicides. You could argue that this doesn't reflect other violent crimes. I put it to you that all violent crimes are committed disproportionately by African Americans. You can verify this yourself, if you like. I'm not "arbitrarily excluding" anything.



The conclusion of this study is, frankly, nonsense.

First of all, there is a difference between police fatally shooting someone and police "abuse".

Secondly, they are drawing a broad conclusion about police based on murders committed during BLM protests. It is insane to call police officers murderers because they fatally shot someone like Breonna Taylor when her boyfriend shot at them first... but it is a whole other level of crazy to then blame the same police for murderous rioters.

Lastly, it is BLM (and the MSM and social media and certain people in this thread) that increase legal cynicism.

*sigh* i dont feel like pointing this out. but if you compare:

amount of unarmed black people killed by cops
__________________________________________
total amount of black population


vs


amount of unarmed white people kiled by cops
_______________________________________________________
total amount of white population

the disparity is obvious.

 

[aemetha]

The conclusion of this study is, frankly, nonsense.

First of all, there is a difference between police fatally shooting someone and police "abuse".

Secondly, they are drawing a broad conclusion about police based on murders committed during BLM protests. It is insane to call police officers murderers because they fatally shot someone like Breonna Taylor when her boyfriend shot at them first... but it is a whole other level of crazy to then blame the same police for murderous rioters.

Lastly, it is BLM (and the MSM and social media and certain people in this thread) that increase legal cynicism.

Okay, so cite some studies supporting this. This study at least did the work to link the statistics.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Zephyn

Perhaps, but that's misleading. There are more encounters between police and Black people than there are police and white people. More crimes are committed by the former than the latter.

If you take the word unarmed out of it:

amount of black people killed by cops
__________________________________________
total amount of black population

vs

amount of white people killed by cops
_______________________________________________________
total amount of white population

The disparity is still obvious.

The question is: why?

If you take a quick glance, it seems like Black people are being hunted down by the police because of the colour of their skin... but if you look deeper into it, there are contributing factors that extend beyond race.

 

[Zephyn]

@Zephyn

Perhaps, but that's misleading. There are more encounters between police and Black people than there are police and white people. More crimes are committed by the former than the latter.

If you take the word unarmed out of it:





The disparity is still obvious.

The question is: why?

If you take a quick glance, it seems like Black people are being hunted down by the police because of the colour of their skin... but if you look deeper into it, there are contributing factors that extend beyond race.

i dont think it has to do with black skin equaling low morals, i think it has more to do with poverty, i mean, my family came as immigrants from WW2, refugees, but they were still better off than most families recovering from segregation at that time..

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Okay, so cite some studies supporting this. This study at least did the work to link the statistics.

Supporting what, specifically?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

i dont think it has to do with black skin equaling low morals, i think it has more to do with poverty

Agreed, but it isn't just a result of poverty. Race still influences statistics beyond poverty. Poor Chinese Americans aren't as likely to commit crimes than poor African Americans.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

I am confused by you guys' argument.
So @aemetha argues that higher homicide rates are caused by police-involved killings, and @birdup.snaildown argues that police kill more if the homicide rate is higher.

Haven't you guys thought that you might actually both be right?
Like I said earlier, the one thing makes the other worse, and the other makes the one thing worse, it's not a static system.

 

[aemetha]

Supporting what, specifically?

Well, refuting the study I posted for starters. You just dismissed it because it was, in your opinion, nonsensical. The full text of the study is available on the link I posted. The statistics are properly analysed and the study is extensively referenced. Right now you're basically saying your opinion trumps the facts I posted. If the study is nonsensical, where is/are the error/s?

Lastly, it is BLM (and the MSM and social media and certain people in this thread) that increase legal cynicism.

Where is the evidence for this?

Actually, you don't have to. I have a sense we're arguing at loggerheads and the positions are entrenched. For what it's worth I don't think you're wrong about many of the opinions you've voiced. I do think your wrong about the extent your theories influence matters. I think it's complex and there are many factors which intersect to cause high homicide rates and high rates of police-involved killings. What I reject is the suggestion that police don't need to change. The populations they police also need to change. There needs to be more acceptance that fault lies on both sides. I'm not anti-police, but there are clear examples of where US police have acquired too much impunity to act violently and that impunity causes populations to react violently. It's also true of the reverse - populations acting violently leads to police violence and them seeking more impunity to act with violence. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken somewhere.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Buzz Lightbeer

You could be right.

Maybe it's not the chicken or the egg.

There are certainly homicides that result from police shootings, but (like I said) I tend to blame BLM and the MSM, etc for that... rather than blaming the police department.