Social Justice Universal Health Care Discussion Thread

[Jabberwocky]

Ah but don't you know, that's your fault for getting pregnant. In fact everything bad that happens to people is their fault. That's what people have to believe to live with themselves while believing in a system where they don't have to pay any tax on welfare or medical support.

ah yes i had forgotten!! and obviously the people who believe that will conveniently die of a heart attack before they get to an age where they require people from younger generations to take care of them

Universal health care gets you needles in the arm of invega and other drugs you don't want because they are profitable or at least insurance profiting.

it does not. universal healthcare is based on clinical need, not profit. but it seems impossible to convince US citizens of this fact despite the many well run universal healthcare systems around the world that are far cheaper and have far better clinical outcomes.

the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world, so it should get the best outcomes but it does not and many of the countries that routinely scores higher than the US have universal healthcare and spend way, way less per capita on it.

 

[ions]

I see a dividing line here.

Government does not belong in health care.

 

[JessFR]

You'd swear some people worship getting fucked over.

I'll say what I said before. I have lived in Australia for a pretty long time now and never, not once, have I heard anyone say they envy the American system.

I've seen plenty of Americans envy the Australian system. But not once the reverse.

And is the reason not obvious? A lot of Americans want the security to get health problems treated regardless of if they're insured. They don't like that they pay taxes to spend more on a system that gets them less.

While noone with half a brain is gonna go "no I wish I had to pay more for that health care or not be able to afford it at all!".

But as is the case with so many things in American politics, an extremist minority is holding hostage the sensible majority.

 

[ions]

When you're not paying for it (insured) and the price is high enough, doctors will sell you unnecessary procedures.

Let's remove that gallbladder while you're in here...

 

[JessFR]

When you're not paying for it (insured) and the price is high enough, doctors will sell you unnecessary procedures.

Let's remove that gallbladder while you're in here...

I actually live in a country with universal health care, and I'm telling you, just like the other person who actually has first hand experience, that that is not what happens.

Enough fear mongering. This is always the standard ploy. Claim that the improvement actually does the opposite.

We can't have better healthcare cause it costs lives. We can't have fewer guns, more people will get shot. We can't have fairer democratic systems by ditching the electoral college, that would be unfair! It's all crap.

 

[ions]

The price of a routine procedure (broken arm) is thousands less than what a hospital will charge.

So fuck it. Next time I go in for gout, I think they'll want to amputate instead of giving me morphine and prednisone. Not like I'd need the morphine.

But the reason I get gout is also symptomatic of being fat unhealthy alcoholic in a society where we can't freely choose what drugs we want in our bodies.

Then again my parents intercept my mail so there's the whole mail fraud insurance fraud thing. Overpriced, educated fools, from uneducated schools.

 

[ions]

Sorry @JessFR You know I've got vinegar in my blood.

 

[bmf666]

Every time I’m at the dmv I’m reminded how great our government is at doing things. I have free va healthcare because I’m a veteran and still choose to pay for my union insurance since it’s way better.

 

[bmf666]

If you want universal healthcare in America then we need to actually enforce our immigration laws. I’m fine with it as long as our taxes don’t increase which isn’t happening and we already pay to much

 

[Jabberwocky]

The price of a routine procedure (broken arm) is thousands less than what a hospital will charge.

yes!! this is why the US system is fucked. in a public healthcare system prices are not artificially inflated for profit, because there is no profit. so everyone saves money. i can't see how better clinical outcomes for less money isn't a no brainer.

@bmf666 see the link i posted above about the clinical outcomes of different healthcare systems- the ones routinely outperforming the US are run by their governments and cost significantly less.

immigration laws not being enforced (and to the rest of the world it looks like you do enforce them pretty harshly) has fuckall to do with it given that presenting at hospital would get you deported.

immigration is blamed for problems in our NHS too but its a lie, its underfunding by the government. immigrants keep the NHS going.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

It's not that I don't think that universal healthcare is a bad idea empirically, its that my life experience has shown that the government fucks up each and every process it touches.

Anything but government run HealthCare.

 

[bmf666]

yes!! this is why the US system is fucked. in a public healthcare system prices are not artificially inflated for profit, because there is no profit. so everyone saves money. i can't see how better clinical outcomes for less money isn't a no brainer.

@bmf666 see the link i posted above about the clinical outcomes of different healthcare systems- the ones routinely outperforming the US are run by their governments and cost significantly less.

immigration laws not being enforced (and to the rest of the world it looks like you do enforce them pretty harshly) has fuckall to do with it given that presenting at hospital would get you deported.

immigration is blamed for problems in our NHS too but its a lie, its underfunding by the government. immigrants keep the NHS going.

Bs if we’re not deporting them at the border why would we deport them at the hospital. Plus once they get in and have a kid the kids a citizen and he brings his whole family over with chain migration. Most first world countries have a merit based immigration policy where if you’re not going to be able to contribute you’re probably not getting in. America they get over here and immediately start getting benifits. How many illegals and ‘asylum seekers’ do we have in free housing and other benifits?

 

[JessFR]

It's not that I don't think that universal healthcare is a bad idea empirically, its that my life experience has shown that the government fucks up each and every process it touches.

Anything but government run HealthCare.

Much as that might seem like a sensible point, nothing changes the fact that Americans are paying more for some of the worse healthcare in the developed world.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

It's not that I don't think that universal healthcare is a bad idea empirically, its that my life experience has shown that the government fucks up each and every process it touches.

Anything but government run HealthCare.

You've got a point and there are admittedly many issues with our NHS. But if I get badly fucked up in a car crash or something, its comforting to know I'm not going to get hit with a bill for thousands.

 

[JessFR]

I'll say this yet again too. The US pays double per capita on health than Australia and yet people get very little for all that money.

"we can't afford it cause of x" is bs. The current system costs money in itself.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It's not that I don't think that universal healthcare is a bad idea empirically, its that my life experience has shown that the government fucks up each and every process it touches.

Anything but government run HealthCare.

empirically, governments run healthcare systems better than the private companies in the US, for less money.

Bs if we’re not deporting them at the border why would we deport them at the hospital. Plus once they get in and have a kid the kids a citizen and he brings his whole family over with chain migration. Most first world countries have a merit based immigration policy where if you’re not going to be able to contribute you’re probably not getting in. America they get over here and immediately start getting benifits. How many illegals and ‘asylum seekers’ do we have in free housing and other benifits?

illegal immigrants are generally not entitled to benefits. and even if they were, are such a tiny proportion of the population as to be basically irrelevant in the context of the current discusssion.

 

[bmf666]

Much as that might seem like a sensible point, nothing changes the fact that Americans are paying more for some of the worse healthcare in the developed world.

Our governments horrible at everything they do but when they take over healthcare it’s magically going to be awesome? The military spends a lot of money on its healthcare and I guarantee it won’t be at that quality if we all get it and it’s still worse then my private insurance

 

[bmf666]

empirically, governments run healthcare systems better than the private companies in the US, for less money.


illegal immigrants are generally not entitled to benefits. and even if they were, are such a tiny proportion of the population as to be basically irrelevant in the context of the current discusssion.

Tell that to all the ones in section 8 housing and food stamps. America spent 22% on public assistance and welfare programs. This country could afford to do a lot more if it actually looked out for its interests more

 

[JessFR]

Are governments horrible at everything they do but when they take over healthcare it’s magically going to be awesome? The military spends a lot of money on its healthcare and I guarantee it won’t be at that quality if we all get it and it’s still worse then my private insurance

It's gonna be better than the current system yeah. You think Australian or British governments don't have incompetence? They do. This is just another excuse.

"this solution isn't 100% perfect, so we should keep our substantially worse system instead!".

 

[bmf666]

yeah I’m really happy with my insurance. And I know it’s not hard to get if you want it. So everyone got to jump through all these hoops so people that don’t give a crap don’t have to suffer the consequences of being lazy