Social Justice Universal Health Care Discussion Thread

[JessFR]

Blind? I’m living pretty good and I never went to college and wouldn’t exactly say I’m an over achiever. So because you live in a rich country you’re entitled to other peoples crap? Only problem I have with this country is I pay to much in taxes to pay for all the free crap you people cry about. You want free healthcare join the military or he’ll work at Starbucks. Again it’s not hard to leave this country kinda funny how few people end up leaving here but people with way less means manage to make it here

How about we do like all the other wealthy countries and have a proper health care system.

One that isn't so retarded that in a pandemic everyone gets fired and loses their health insurance, which they suddenly are much more likely to need cause it's a pandemic!

It's crazy that some people argue with a straight face that it's selfish for society to use tax money to help society.

This isn't some hypothetical. Virtually all the other wealthy countries already do this and are the better off for it.

I grew up in America, and I moved to Australia in my early adulthood.

I have heard soooo many Americans and seen my American family members express jealousy for how amazing the Healthcare system in Australia is.

You know what I've never heard? Ever? Not even once? An Australian saying how much they wish they didn't have public health care and had to be employed to stand a chance of maybe not being denied coverage and getting to pay substantially more for substantially less.

It's never happened.

 

[bmf666]

Well maybe if we had as harsh an immigration policy as Australia we could afford universal healthcare, or if we cut are military budget in half so it equaled Australia’s we’d be able to do that and you guys can deal with China and Russia.

 

[JessFR]

Well maybe if we had as harsh an immigration policy as Australia we could afford universal healthcare, or if we cut are military budget in half so it equaled Australia’s we’d be able to do that and you guys can deal with China and Russia

Rofl. That's an excuse. And a bad one. America already spends twice per capita on health care than Australia does. But it's misspent and mismanaged so we don't get nearly as much benefit for it.

So no. That's total bullshit. We can afford it. And it has nothing to do with immigration and we don't need to slash the military budget.

The obstacles are purely political not economic.

 

[bmf666]

how does it have nothing to do with immigration. So all those illegals swarming our country don’t cost money when they need healthcare? Stay in Australia please we got enough freeloaders over here

 

[bmf666]

For Sri Lankan Refugees, a Free and Fair Australia Is a Myth

A murder mystery is an indictment of Australia’s draconian immigration policy that has left many legitimate asylum-seekers detained, deported, or dead.

foreignpolicy.com

Yeah you guys are so strict on immigration since it has no effect on your economy lol

 

[JessFR]

how does it have nothing to do with immigration. So all those illegals swarming our country don’t cost money when they need healthcare? Stay in Australia please we got enough freeloaders over here

Another bad argument. You can easily screen out illegals by tying health care to citizenship and legal residency. Just as Australia does.

The only problem is people like you. Foolish people who've convinced themselves that paying more for worse Healthcare is somehow superior and obstruct any efforts to improve America and maybe get her back to being the best country in the world.

I'm sick of seeing America listed as the worst of the first world countries under nearly every measure. Worst health, worst crime, worst education.

But noooooo none if that matters in the eyes of a loud minority of Americans holding the rest of us hostage. To them so long as they have their ar15 that means they're free and that America is the best country in the world and that's all that matters.

The type of people who claim to be patriots then attack the heart of American government and try and murder our elected representatives.

 

[bmf666]

I’m just going to do what you do since it’s a lot easier and dismiss everything you just said because it’s a bad argument lol. Just curious how did you feel about the 8 months of riots leading up to the capital riot?

 

[JessFR]

I’m just going to do what you do since it’s a lot easier and dismiss everything you just said because it’s a bad argument lol. Just curious how did you feel about the 8 months of riots leading up to the capital riot?

What, you mean the blm riots? They're very disappointing too. I mean the non violent protests are fine. But there's no excuse for violent rioting regardless of the supposed underlying politics.

 

[bmf666]

Well at least we agree on something I’m using this as my out this crap gets me to worked up.

 

[JessFR]

I’m just going to do what you do since it’s a lot easier and dismiss everything you just said because it’s a bad argument lol. Just curious how did you feel about the 8 months of riots leading up to the capital riot?

Except I specified why they were bad arguments. I didn't just call them bad arguments and otherwise ignore them and provide no reasoning.

The illegal alien argument is bad because it's easy and in fact widely the case in the first world that public Healthcare is limited to citizens and legal residents. So the only Healthcare illegal aliens would have is what in practice they already have now, emergency care.

And as for the money argument that's bad because we are already paying more per capita than countries with better health care. We're paying more to get less. So of course arguing that we can't afford it is a bad argument.

 

[JessFR]

Well at least we agree on something I’m using this as my out this crap gets me to worked up.

You would hope most people would agree with this. I mean, you have a right to protest and I think the protests were probably well deserved given recent events.

But you have no right to start rioting and damaging people's private property or terrorizing them. Anyone who does that is a rioter, not a protester, and should expect the full force of the law to come down upon them.

 

[bmf666]

Except I specified why they were bad arguments. I didn't just call them bad arguments and otherwise ignore them and provide no reasoning.

The illegal alien argument is bad because it's easy and in fact widely the case in the first world that public Healthcare is limited to citizens and legal residents. So the only Healthcare illegal aliens would have is what in practice they already have now, emergency care.

And as for the money argument that's bad because we are already paying more per capita than countries with better health care. We're paying more to get less. So of course arguing that we can't afford it is a bad argument.

So illegals don’t cost this country money in other ways besides emergency healthcare? Then there’s the fact that once they have a kid he’s a citizen and now entitled to free healthcare. And also the fact that it’s proven there’s illegals taking up section 8 and other benifits they’re supposedly not supposed to get. Illegal immigration is expensive that’s why most countries actually enforce there boarders.

 

[JessFR]

So illegals don’t cost this country money in other ways besides emergency healthcare? Then there’s the fact that once they have a kid he’s a citizen and now entitled to free healthcare. And also the fact that it’s proven there’s illegals taking up section 8 and other benifits they’re supposedly not supposed to get. Illegal immigration is expensive that’s why most countries actually enforce there boarders.

Of course they do, but we aren't talking about illegal immigration we're talking about... Well we're supposed to be talking about blm so I might see if we can split this part of the conversation off, but we were talking about public health care. So any discussion of illegal immigration should be with regards to how feasible public health care is.

And if illegals are gaining access to public housing then the solution is to fix that. Not to get rid of public housing.

We are the wealthiest country in the world. We can afford to give our citizens the same quality of health as the rest of the developed world has. That's my point here.

 

[alasdairm]

Then there’s the fact that once they have a kid he’s a citizen

it's not just a fact. it's a right granted by the u.s. constitution. do you not support the u.s. constitution? or only the bits you like?

the u.s. is number 1 in a lot of inspiring categories. it's also number 1 in a lot of shameful ones:

• highest incarceration rate in the world
• highest percentage of obese people in the world
• highest divorce rate in the world
• joint first in number of hours of t.v. watched in the world
• highest rate of car theft in the world
• spends the most on health care as a percentage of gdp in the world
• the most student loan debt in the world

america is a great country. i chose to become a u.s. citizen and i am proud of that choice.

but let's try a little perspective and see that it's far, far from #1 in the world in many troubling categories.

alasdair

 

[JessFR]

america is a great country. i chose to become a u.s. citizen and i am proud of that choice.

Interesting, I'd always assumed you were a born citizen.

Something I've always hated is how the constitution only allows birth citizens to be president. It creates a de facto second class citizenry which to me goes against what america is, or should be about. Equality.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@bmf666

Sorry for the delayed response. I've been at work all day. Hectic day. One for the history books.

To answer your question from earlier, I think healthcare should be affordable. For some people that means it should be free. It's outrageous and utterly shameful for citizens of a wealthy country to have a choice between bankruptcy and death. I spend a lot of time with people who are seriously ill. Being diagnosed with a serious condition is hard enough (believe me) without taking into account the monetary side of things... There are definitely people that take advantage of the system, but welfare payments in the US are so low that the incentive to sit on your ass doesn't really exist. Here, in Australia (I'm not really from NZ thank God), the dole used to be way too easy to exploit. Now you have to work for welfare and the payments are still not enough to live on. I'm not super familiar with the US welfare system, but I don't think it provides a living wage to non-parents.

If you want to live in a country that has less (or no) income tax, there are many destinations to choose from. The fact is: you live in a country that provides support to needy people. You live in a country that (to one extent or another) values human decency relative to other, less fortunate, countries. Frankly, it sounds like you like America less than I do... So why not move? It's never going to change the way you want it to. Acceptance is good for the soul. It's childish to whinge about reality. Shit could be much worse, my friend. Count your blessings.

 

[cduggles]

Thanks for creating this thread, @JessFR .

 

[Jabberwocky]

I put it in another post on this board but after the military I got a bs job at Lowe’s just to stay busy. If you worked full time they gave u health coverage yet there was a ton of them that refused to work full time since they’d lose there free healthcare and benifits. I bet you that’s the reality of 90% of these poor people you think need to be helped. I guarantee very few of them legitimately can’t do it and most of them are just taking advantage of the system. There was this young white girl there that was a manager after 9 months and worked her butt off. The leeches that wouldn’t work full time had been there for years and did the bare minimum

have you ever given any time to actually study deprivation and the causes thereof? your example is not representative. at least in the UK (and from what I understand the US is actually worse in this sense as your wealth gap is huge) there are many interrelated causes and you can't just work yourself out of the situation you are born in. deprived areas (so those with many benefits claimants) have poor local amenities; but poor transport links so you can't easily get out to amenities elsewhere; few jobs available locally, and again poor public transport makes it hard to get jobs elsewhere; poor schools, making it difficult to get jobs to get you out of there; inner city deprived areas have tended to vote against the party that is most often in power here, so get penalised via lack of investment; i think in the US you also have these 'food deserts' where it is basically impossible to buy healthy food.

your experience working a job you didn't need the money from, just to keep busy, doesn't mean you understand anything about the people you worked with's circumstances. it is fucked that there is a disconnect between pay and losing benefits - we have the same here, for some people the amount they would lose in benefits if they upped their working hours is huge compared to what they would earn for those extra hours so working extra is just not viable. this isn't laziness, its sensible decision making.

it really comes down to whether you're prepared to pay to live in a society that treats people decently, and give people the benefit of the doubt. i am but unfortunately my government doesn't want that so my tax money is squandered on their mates.

i am privileged that my job gives me private healthcare but there is loads it doesn't cover- pre existing conditions, maternity, a&e - i am so lucky i have the NHS to cover these so i won't put myself at risk of dying in an at home birth if i ever get to that stage, just because going to hospital to give birth would bankrupt me.

 

[JessFR]

have you ever given any time to actually study deprivation and the causes thereof? your example is not representative. at least in the UK (and from what I understand the US is actually worse in this sense as your wealth gap is huge) there are many interrelated causes and you can't just work yourself out of the situation you are born in. deprived areas (so those with many benefits claimants) have poor local amenities; but poor transport links so you can't easily get out to amenities elsewhere; few jobs available locally, and again poor public transport makes it hard to get jobs elsewhere; poor schools, making it difficult to get jobs to get you out of there; inner city deprived areas have tended to vote against the party that is most often in power here, so get penalised via lack of investment; i think in the US you also have these 'food deserts' where it is basically impossible to buy healthy food.

your experience working a job you didn't need the money from, just to keep busy, doesn't mean you understand anything about the people you worked with's circumstances. it is fucked that there is a disconnect between pay and losing benefits - we have the same here, for some people the amount they would lose in benefits if they upped their working hours is huge compared to what they would earn for those extra hours so working extra is just not viable. this isn't laziness, its sensible decision making.

it really comes down to whether you're prepared to pay to live in a society that treats people decently, and give people the benefit of the doubt. i am but unfortunately my government doesn't want that so my tax money is squandered on their mates.

i am privileged that my job gives me private healthcare but there is loads it doesn't cover- pre existing conditions, maternity, a&e - i am so lucky i have the NHS to cover these so i won't put myself at risk of dying in an at home birth if i ever get to that stage, just because going to hospital to give birth would bankrupt me.

Ah but don't you know, that's your fault for getting pregnant. In fact everything bad that happens to people is their fault. That's what people have to believe to live with themselves while believing in a system where they don't have to pay any tax on welfare or medical support.

Selfish short sighted fools. (my avatar really is perfect :D)

 

[ions]

The cost of medical care would plummet if we were able to privately choose insurances among non governmental sponsored insurance companies. I would repeal the affordable care act and allow private companies to compete for lower premiums. Universal health care gets you needles in the arm of invega and other drugs you don't want because they are profitable or at least insurance profiting. I don't want insurance because of the reason that government has a say what you can and can't put in your body.

"When government decides which foods and medicines we eat, then we are the sad sorry souls who live under tyranny." Jefferson