The only problem I have with this country is I pay way to much in taxes and our governments to worried about helping the wrong people. I’m all for public assistance and helping people that need it but it’s out of control in this country and way to many people are allowed to abuse it and feel entitled to it. I made $220k last year because I worked a ton of overtime and looking back it really wasn’t worth working 60 hour weeks because they just raped me in taxes. It shouldn’t be like that, no one should be thinking if it’s worth working or not because you have to worry about handing it all over so people without the same work ethic can live comfortably. It’s going to be a sad day when no matter what you do in this country you can’t get ahead because we’ll be drowned in all that bullcrap. Why is it not more fair for everyone to be expected to be self sufficient for the most part? Are medical stuff does need to be regulated and a lot needs to be changed to keep the cost down so it can be more affordable but everyone needs to foot there own bill. I just don’t understand the mindset of people thinking they’re owed all this crap simply because they where born in a rich country. All this country owes me is an opportunity to make a good living, let me keep my money and I’ll figure out the rest
Social Justice Universal Health Care Discussion Thread
- Thread starter JessFR
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Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
On the flip side... you made $220 thousand dollars! Most people don't ever make even remotely close to that in any year of their lives, nor do they ever expect to make even close to that. People in minimum or lower wage jobs can work 80 hours a week and make a small fraction of that much money (and a lot of them do, the idea that poor people are lazy is very wrong. Some are, of course, but many work extremely hard). And compared to most European countries, we still pay low taxes.
However I agree that we don't spend it on the right things. We spend way too much on the military and funding foreign wars, and corporate tax cuts, and "pork barrel" spending where every bill that disperses money anywhere comes with a bunch of random stuff that benefits the politicians writing the legislation, or their hometowns, or things like that.
Health care is one of the things we absolutely should be spending taxes on, that and infrastructure. The fact is, without health care, people don't go to the doctor because it's insanely expensive. And people who are low wage earners simply can't afford health care, it's way too expensive. I mean my mom had to switch to paying for her health care once my dad retired, and she pays about $700 a month for her premium. She can afford it, but most people can't, that's more than rent for a lot of people.
In my opinion, if we had a public option and still allowed private health care, too (like Britain does), it would be ideal. That way the two systems would have to compete with each other and it would go a long way towards controlling the out of control costs we see in the US healthcare system (~10 times as much as pretty much anywhere else, it's absurd). Right now the insurance companies basically control the whole system and it's messed up. If we had public and private options, it would ensure everyone has health care, but if you can afford it you can still participate in the private system. The way it is now, we have a gigantic health epidemic with people who don't participate in preventative medicine at all because they can't afford to go to the doctor. Then taxpayers and people who pay for health insurance foot the bill when people get really sick and can't pay for it. But it's not those peoples' fault, really. Many people are low wage earners, those jobs need to be filled, and those people are basically screwed, they can't afford to pay outright for health care and they can't afford to pay for insurance, either.
Obamacare helped (a number of my friends only started to be able to afford health care because of it, because they are low wage earners or musicians and couldn't afford it until they got government subsidies to help). But it hasn't solved the problem, clearly.
However I agree that we don't spend it on the right things. We spend way too much on the military and funding foreign wars, and corporate tax cuts, and "pork barrel" spending where every bill that disperses money anywhere comes with a bunch of random stuff that benefits the politicians writing the legislation, or their hometowns, or things like that.
Health care is one of the things we absolutely should be spending taxes on, that and infrastructure. The fact is, without health care, people don't go to the doctor because it's insanely expensive. And people who are low wage earners simply can't afford health care, it's way too expensive. I mean my mom had to switch to paying for her health care once my dad retired, and she pays about $700 a month for her premium. She can afford it, but most people can't, that's more than rent for a lot of people.
In my opinion, if we had a public option and still allowed private health care, too (like Britain does), it would be ideal. That way the two systems would have to compete with each other and it would go a long way towards controlling the out of control costs we see in the US healthcare system (~10 times as much as pretty much anywhere else, it's absurd). Right now the insurance companies basically control the whole system and it's messed up. If we had public and private options, it would ensure everyone has health care, but if you can afford it you can still participate in the private system. The way it is now, we have a gigantic health epidemic with people who don't participate in preventative medicine at all because they can't afford to go to the doctor. Then taxpayers and people who pay for health insurance foot the bill when people get really sick and can't pay for it. But it's not those peoples' fault, really. Many people are low wage earners, those jobs need to be filled, and those people are basically screwed, they can't afford to pay outright for health care and they can't afford to pay for insurance, either.
Obamacare helped (a number of my friends only started to be able to afford health care because of it, because they are low wage earners or musicians and couldn't afford it until they got government subsidies to help). But it hasn't solved the problem, clearly.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
What you're describing is the system we already have, where insurance companies drive prices up, which is fine for people with insurance, and horrible for everyone else. Universal health care focuses on keeping prices low, since it's being paid for with taxes.
health insurance is such a racket, do you ever look at a bill you get? They charge some huge amount, then the insurance company barters it way down (in some cases when I got lab work done, they deducted 90% of the cost that the insurance company had to pay). But people with no insurance have to pay the full amount. It's so backwards. Why do people without insurance have to pay far more? Because the insurance companies have a lot of power and basically set the prices they pay, and hospitals/health care providers charge people who they can get away with charging more, a much higher amount.
I have health insurance. I have a good job that I went to college for, and my work pays for 80% of my premium (I pay $140 a month, pre-tax, they pay a lot more than that). I'm awfully thankful for my situation, but I still think it's very wrong the way our system works.
It's not hard if you make $220 thousand dollars a year, that is certainly true. If you're one of the millions of people who work hard but don't make a living wage, then it's pretty insurmountable.
So I’d have to pay for people’s health care then also pay more for my private insurance? Yeah $220k is a good living and I had to do a ton of crap I really didn’t want to to get it. I’m an electrician, it’s a blue collar job and anyone could do it if they wanted so it’s not like I got extremely lucky and beat all the odds. I’m just willing to show up every day and work which a lot of Americans have stopped wanting to do
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Again I agree that some poor people are lazy, in fact I would venture to say we have a laziness problem in America (more of an entitlement problem). But there are lots and lots of people who work hard and do not make very much money. No one should make less than a living wage while working full time, that's crazy. Like I said before, you can't penalize people who work minimum wage jobs. Someone has to work those jobs. Not everyone can be an electrician or work a trade, it doesn't work that way.
Anyway I don't know what the answer is, but the system we have now is fucked for a lot of people, through no fault of their own. Some people fuck themselves over and it's their fault, but millions of people are fucked despite working hard and doing everything they can. And that's wrong.
Regarding paying for public and private health care... if our health care costs weren't ballooned to 10 times what other first world countries pay, health insurance premiums would be much, much lower. So there is that to consider, too.
Anyway I don't know what the answer is, but the system we have now is fucked for a lot of people, through no fault of their own. Some people fuck themselves over and it's their fault, but millions of people are fucked despite working hard and doing everything they can. And that's wrong.
Regarding paying for public and private health care... if our health care costs weren't ballooned to 10 times what other first world countries pay, health insurance premiums would be much, much lower. So there is that to consider, too.
I disagree, anyone that wants to work a trade can definitely do it if they wanted it enough. My company pays illegals $20 on hour because they can’t find Americans worth a shit. That jobs worth way more then $20 and if we ‘d actually enforce our borders they’d be forced to pay Americans more to do it. It’s hard to find good help I just don’t understand how anyone that actually tries not eventually moving up or getting a raise
I agree our health care needs to be fixed. We pay more then the rest of the world for the same medication and hospitals inflate the cost of people with insurance to make up for the people that don’t pay. I remember trump was actually pushing for setting medicine costs and because he said it everyone lost the ere mind
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
I realize anyone can work a trade, technically, I'm just saying that everyone who works low wage jobs can't move into the trades, there aren't that many jobs, and the low wage jobs need to be filled, too. So the problem remains that we have people who work low wage jobs, full time or more than full time, who can't afford health care, and I think that's wrong. I think everyone who works full time should be able to afford the basic necessities in life, but that isn't how it is in America.
Of course, if our health care costs were in line with what other first world nations pay, then we might be able to make it work, it just definitely doesn't work now.
That was one thing I would have definitely supported if Trump had done that. Pharmaceutical companies can just set the prices to whatever.
Of course, if our health care costs were in line with what other first world nations pay, then we might be able to make it work, it just definitely doesn't work now.
That was one thing I would have definitely supported if Trump had done that. Pharmaceutical companies can just set the prices to whatever.
Well that’s a hypothetical situation that’s not actually a problem right now so who cares. I know for a fact there’s plenty of opening in the trades. So anyone stuck right now making minimum wage at a job like that definitely has better opportunities available so again not really feeling bad for them since it’s there fault. I see a lot of immigrants filling American jobs and it pisses me off, if we’d enforce our borders the demand for workers would go up which would give us higher wages. On the other hand I see a lot of Americans start working and very few hang around or end up being worth a shit so I’m kinda torn. I’m in the union and we have R workers that do the same thing as us but get paid less. I see poor Americans and inner city kids that supposedly have had it so bad get into the apprenticeship where they’d be making over 100k in 5 years and they always screw it away. On the other hand the poor immigrants get into the R program and don’t make shit and they work there butt off and I know every single one of them would finish the apprenticeship if they could get in. I think we need politicians that aren’t afraid to start telling the truth and giving Americans some much needed tough love. Imagine a president saying “ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country” and that was a democrat that said that
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
I agree we've gotten soft, and that we need real leaders. I think it's good to let individuals know that they can get into the trades to improve their financial situation, absolutely. It's a good message and a good thing for someone to do. Some people probably don't even know it's an option. But my reasoning was not hypothetical. How many people work minimum/low wage jobs? Let's pick a number... 10 million (it's probably more, I dunno though, the exact number isn't important). Sure there are more openings for trade jobs now, but there certainly aren't 10 million. And we need people working at gas stations, and grocery store checkout lanes, and all the other bottom-tier jobs. So you can't just say "get a better job, it's your fault you can't afford to live because you have a shitty job", because those shitty jobs need to be filled by someone, and if everyone in a shitty job tried to move up, there wouldn't be enough need for all of them, or even close to all of them, and then no one would be working the jobs they left. So it comes right back to the root of the issue, which is that the people who occupy those bottom tier jobs are screwed, even though they work full time. We should be set up so that minimum wage at 40 hours a week is enough to pay your living expenses and health care.
I actually don't think we should just give everyone money for doing nothing, I just think everyone who does their part and works full time should be able to afford life, even if they work at a gas station or something.
I actually don't think we should just give everyone money for doing nothing, I just think everyone who does their part and works full time should be able to afford life, even if they work at a gas station or something.
Why does every job have to be a career? There’s plenty of young adults and people just getting started that have no life experience that typically fill those positions. What’s a living wage? Should every job be able to support a family of 4? Not being a smart ass just asking. I had a shitty job when I was 16 and said screw that and joined the navy, a path that’s available to everyone
Honestly I think a lot of those problems with low wages would work themselves out if we enforced our immigration laws. I’m in dc and I look around and i swear half this cities first generation immigrants. Everyone praises places like Canada and Australia for being progressive but good luck getting in there if you can’t prove your self sufficient. We let people swarm this country by the 1,000’s and none of them are going to contribute to our economy and end up being more of a burden on an already overburdened system
When you add everything up at the end of the year, it seems quite expensive to live in the States; unless of course your job provides healthcare or other insurance. Luckily I get disability and free healthcare. In principle I'm against healthcare as a whole, but if I had to choose for a population I think universal would be the best option even though you still have to buy medicines (or at least I did in Canada), but they're affordable
It's not like the States where you might walk into the ER and they charge you a grand just for a nurse/doctor visit. Then you walk out thinking what are my taxes paying for? It doesn't add up
It's not like the States where you might walk into the ER and they charge you a grand just for a nurse/doctor visit. Then you walk out thinking what are my taxes paying for? It doesn't add up
atara
Bluelighter
It wouldn't actually be good for the economy if all of those poor people joined the Navy. In fact, it'd be terrible. Sailors won't do your dry cleaning or deliver your pizza.
But anyway, people seem to have missed that the US got a universal affordable healthcare guarantee as part of the COVID recovery act:
www.economist.com
For at least the next two years, all Americans in 38 states will see individual contributions to health insurance premiums capped at 8.5% of taxable income. The exceptions are Wyoming, Wisconsin, Texas, Tennessee, South Dakota, South Carolina, North Carolina, Mississippi, Louisiana, Kansas, Georgia, Florida, and Alabama, which still have the Medicaid coverage gap.
But anyway, people seem to have missed that the US got a universal affordable healthcare guarantee as part of the COVID recovery act:
Smuggled into the covid-relief bill is an overdue fix for Obamacare
America’s health-care law has never been as popular as its proponents hoped. That could soon change
For at least the next two years, all Americans in 38 states will see individual contributions to health insurance premiums capped at 8.5% of taxable income. The exceptions are Wyoming, Wisconsin, Texas, Tennessee, South Dakota, South Carolina, North Carolina, Mississippi, Louisiana, Kansas, Georgia, Florida, and Alabama, which still have the Medicaid coverage gap.
birdup.snaildown
Greenlighter
@Xorkoth
I agree with you about minimum wage in theory, but do you agree that (in practice) there are long-term downsides to significantly raising the minimum wage?
I feel the same way about welfare.
I don't sit firmly on either side of the argument. There is no easy solution.
Why does it matter?
Disabled people (of all ages) exist all over the country.
I don't see how @Gormur and his personal circumstances are relevant to the broader discussion.
I agree with you about minimum wage in theory, but do you agree that (in practice) there are long-term downsides to significantly raising the minimum wage?
I feel the same way about welfare.
I don't sit firmly on either side of the argument. There is no easy solution.
bmf666 said:
Why does it matter?
Disabled people (of all ages) exist all over the country.
I don't see how @Gormur and his personal circumstances are relevant to the broader discussion.
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
Universal health care doesn't have to mean there's no insurance. There's still health insurance in Australia. What it means is there's a fall back, a safety net for people who don't have it.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
On the several comments about immigration in this discussion and the need to ensure borders are enforced, most economists argue that immigration suppresses wages in the short term but enhances overall GDP in the medium to long term. Without population growth economic growth is difficult. Part of the inequality gap in the US seems to be wage suppression at low levels but overall GDP expansion meaning that the economy is doing fine thank you very much. Only problem is the growth in wealth is unevenly distributed with the far greater proportion going to capital rather than labour (except to the extent that labour has retirement accounts invested in stocks).
And as for minimum wage earners being lazy, there is a lot of evidence that the casualisation of work with zero hour contracts is affecting people with higher and higher qualifications. So the next step up from being a McDonald’s server or a ‘sweeping lady’ is not a yellow brick road to senior management. Some workers are lucky to essentially be in protected positions through membership of a strong union. But only certain types of jobs are amenable to unionisation and as technology de-skills many professions workers have very little collective leverage in bargaining.
Also increasing the minimum wage is essentially a form of economic stimulus. That money gets spent in the real economy creating further jobs. It’s no different to the stimulus checks you’ve all been enjoying in the US. There is a moral mindset in the US, quite evident in this thread, that the poor are undeserving and need to be kept hungry to motivate them. Which might have worked in the 18th and 19th centuries but the structural changes to the economy and the cultural attitudes of some communities still present enormous barriers to a very large number of people at the very bottom of things.
And as for minimum wage earners being lazy, there is a lot of evidence that the casualisation of work with zero hour contracts is affecting people with higher and higher qualifications. So the next step up from being a McDonald’s server or a ‘sweeping lady’ is not a yellow brick road to senior management. Some workers are lucky to essentially be in protected positions through membership of a strong union. But only certain types of jobs are amenable to unionisation and as technology de-skills many professions workers have very little collective leverage in bargaining.
Also increasing the minimum wage is essentially a form of economic stimulus. That money gets spent in the real economy creating further jobs. It’s no different to the stimulus checks you’ve all been enjoying in the US. There is a moral mindset in the US, quite evident in this thread, that the poor are undeserving and need to be kept hungry to motivate them. Which might have worked in the 18th and 19th centuries but the structural changes to the economy and the cultural attitudes of some communities still present enormous barriers to a very large number of people at the very bottom of things.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Yes, it would make it more difficult for small businesses to pay their employees, in some cases, definitely. I don't know what the best solution is, but I can't get behind the argument that a living wage as the minimum wage is harmful to employees. It doesn't compute.
I mean the biggest problem, I think, is that the cost of living expenses has gone up astronomically faster than the raise in wages. The dollar doesn't go nearly as far as it once did. There was a time that the minimum wage of $7.25 was enough for people to get by, but that is no longer the case. The cost of living has gone WAY up, and the minimum wage hasn't increased for a long time, now. It's been 12 years since it went up from 6.55 to 7.25. Which itself was a pretty small increase.
As soon as they get free healthcare it will be on to the next thing they’re entitled to. Pretty simple let us keep more of our money and I’ll figure out the rest