Social Justice Universal Health Care Discussion Thread

[JessFR]

As soon as they get free healthcare it will be on to the next thing they’re entitled to. Pretty simple let us keep more of our money and I’ll figure out the rest

No. That's extremely foolish.

I'm gonna say what I've said a hundred times. The numbers speak for themselves. More lives are saved from free/cheap/government subsidized healthcare than from the american system. Noone outside the american system in the first world wants the american system. 99% of the people who want it haven't fully experienced the alternative.

People won't "figure out the rest". They will not see doctors for risks to their health cause they can't afford it, they will get sicker as a result, they will be bankrupted to preserve their health.

All of it could be avoided.

 

[bmf666]

On the several comments about immigration in this discussion and the need to ensure borders are enforced, most economists argue that immigration suppresses wages in the short term but enhances overall GDP in the medium to long term. Without population growth economic growth is difficult. Part of the inequality gap in the US seems to be wage suppression at low levels but overall GDP expansion meaning that the economy is doing fine thank you very much. Only problem is the growth in wealth is unevenly distributed with the far greater proportion going to capital rather than labour (except to the extent that labour has retirement accounts invested in stocks).

And as for minimum wage earners being lazy, there is a lot of evidence that the casualisation of work with zero hour contracts is affecting people with higher and higher qualifications. So the next step up from being a McDonald’s server or a ‘sweeping lady’ is not a yellow brick road to senior management. Some workers are lucky to essentially be in protected positions through membership of a strong union. But only certain types of jobs are amenable to unionisation and as technology de-skills many professions workers have very little collective leverage in bargaining.

Also increasing the minimum wage is essentially a form of economic stimulus. That money gets spent in the real economy creating further jobs. It’s no different to the stimulus checks you’ve all been enjoying in the US. There is a moral mindset in the US, quite evident in this thread, that the poor are undeserving and need to be kept hungry to motivate them. Which might have worked in the 18th and 19th centuries but the structural changes to the economy and the cultural attitudes of some communities still present enormous barriers to a very large number of people at the very bottom of things.

There is zero chance uncontrolled immigration is good for our country. It might be good for democrats getting votes but that’s about it. Is large percentage of them just end up being another burden on our already taxed welfare system. We have economist that figure out the optimal number we should be taking in and even progressive countries like Australia or Canada have a merit based immigration system where you have to have valuable skills or prove you can contribute

No. That's extremely foolish.

I'm gonna say what I've said a hundred times. The numbers speak for themselves. More lives are saved from free/cheap/government subsidized healthcare than from the american system. Noone outside the american system in the first world wants the american system. 99% of the people who want it haven't fully experienced the alternative.

People won't "figure out the rest". They will not see doctors for risks to their health cause they can't afford it, they will get sicker as a result, they will be bankrupted to preserve their health.

All of it could be avoided.

or are system will be flooded with people seeking drugs or disability with nothing better to do. I said are system needs to be fixed so it’s more affordable for everyone but no one should be getting a service for free considering someone has to pay for it

 

[Zephyn]

What you're describing is the system we already have, where insurance companies drive prices up, which is fine for people with insurance, and horrible for everyone else. Universal health care focuses on keeping prices low, since it's being paid for with taxes.

health insurance is such a racket, do you ever look at a bill you get? They charge some huge amount, then the insurance company barters it way down (in some cases when I got lab work done, they deducted 90% of the cost that the insurance company had to pay). But people with no insurance have to pay the full amount. It's so backwards. Why do people without insurance have to pay far more? Because the insurance companies have a lot of power and basically set the prices they pay, and hospitals/health care providers charge people who they can get away with charging more, a much higher amount.

I have health insurance. I have a good job that I went to college for, and my work pays for 80% of my premium (I pay $140 a month, pre-tax, they pay a lot more than that). I'm awfully thankful for my situation, but I still think it's very wrong the way our system works.



It's not hard if you make $220 thousand dollars a year, that is certainly true. If you're one of the millions of people who work hard but don't make a living wage, then it's pretty insurmountable.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you fund your university endevors?

 

[bmf666]

As I said I’m not an anomaly. Anyone can take my route. The military and trades are available to anyone so I really don’t have sympathy for Americans crying about not having options. I see immigrants come here and kill it with half the opportunities we’re born with. The more you help some people the less they’ll try

 

[Zephyn]

Ok man, if I wanted to abandon my career and take your route. I have 4k. I have a warrant that will cost at least 3k. My rent is 750 a month. Training as an electrician is going to cost a lot more than I have. So I find a way to save up. I get the money, and I become an electrician. Is it that simple?

 

[bmf666]

Ok man, if I wanted to abandon my career and take your route. I have 4k. I have a warrant that will cost at least 3k. My rent is 750 a month. Training as an electrician is going to cost a lot more than I have. So I find a way to save up. I get the money, and I become an electrician. Is it that simple?

Nope it’s a lot of hard work everyday that’s why no one does it, but it’s an option

 

[Zephyn]

Nope it’s a lot of hard work everyday that’s why no one does it, but it’s an option

Well, can you write a tek?

 

[bmf666]

If you have a zero skill job anyone can learn in day why would you expect to get paid a lot. You have to learn a skill whatever it is and make yourself valuable. Pick one and stick with it and believe it or not you’ll eventually make decent money

 

[bmf666]

What is a tek?

 

[Jabberwocky]

There is zero chance uncontrolled immigration is good for our country. It might be good for democrats getting votes but that’s about it. Is large percentage of them just end up being another burden on our already taxed welfare system. We have economist that figure out the optimal number we should be taking in and even progressive countries like Australia or Canada have a merit based immigration system where you have to have valuable skills or prove you can contribute

or are system will be flooded with people seeking drugs or disability with nothing better to do. I said are system needs to be fixed so it’s more affordable for everyone but no one should be getting a service for free considering someone has to pay for it

Sure. Neither me, nor any economist I know of, recommends uncontrolled immigration. However, a points based system that brings in people with necessary or useable skills has proven extremely beneficial to Australia and allowed in extremely high numbers of immigrants who bring both economic and human capital with them adding immediately to economic growth. However, we also allow quite a lot of unskilled work to be done by immigrants (primarily by overseas students who are allowed to work while studying English or other basic courses at our technical/community/vocational colleges).

The way our medical system works is basically a hybrid model. The government sets a price it is willing to pay for every possible medical service but allows doctors to charge whatever they want. A sufficiently large number of doctors charge pensioners, the chronically ill, children, the unemployed and other needy groups the government floor price so they have no out-of-pocket expenses. That is an act of free choice by the doctors. No-one forces them to accept the minimum payment. These doctors are all in private practice. But they are all still driving BMW’s because they run efficient practices and charge out-of-pocket fees to wealthier patients who have the capacity to pay.

Better and/or more commercially minded doctors charge higher out-of-pocket expenses but often do work at the government price for needy patients on a kind of pro-bono arrangement. Survey after survey has shown that Australians and Australian medical practitioners believe in wealthy people subsidising the cost of medical treatment for poor people. Wealthy people do ultimately end up with a higher standard of care and they can buy private insurance towards that end, however the minimum public level of service is almost the best in the world and almost no-one complains about paying for it. Most Australians are proud of it, especially when they see that in the American system the overall life expectancy of Americans is declining. It’s looking like Americans are a dying species.

 

[Zephyn]

I have a skill, and I can make at least 50$ an hour and pass any technical interview and upon checking my linked in have 163 messages in two weeks, but in case the bubble bursts, or I am unable to explain how my drug addiction has ruined any position I have and want to take up a different career path, can you write me some steps to becoming an electician?

 

[Zephyn]

Also good to learn multiple trades. Many other engineers I know are also electricians. But idk where to even start

 

[bmf666]

Sure. Neither me, nor any economist I know of, recommends uncontrolled immigration. However, a points based system that brings in people with necessary or useable skills has proven extremely beneficial to Australia and allowed in extremely high numbers of immigrants who bring both economic and human capital with them adding immediately to economic growth. However, we also allow quite a lot of unskilled work to be done by immigrants (primarily by overseas students who are allowed to work while studying English or other basic courses at our technical/community/vocational colleges).

The way our medical system works is basically a hybrid model. The government sets a price it is willing to pay for every possible medical service but allows doctors to charge whatever they want. A sufficiently large number of doctors charge pensioners, the chronically ill, children, the unemployed and other needy groups the government floor price so they have no out-of-pocket expenses. That is an act of free choice by the doctors. No-one forces them to accept the minimum payment. These doctors are all in private practice. But they are all still driving BMW’s because they run efficient practices and charge out-of-pocket fees to wealthier patients who have the capacity to pay.

Better and/or more commercially minded doctors charge higher out-of-pocket expenses but often do work at the government price for needy patients on a kind of pro-bono arrangement. Survey after survey has shown that Australians and Australian medical practitioners believe in wealthy people subsidising the cost of medical treatment for poor people. Wealthy people do ultimately end up with a higher standard of care and they can buy private insurance towards that end, however the minimum public level of service is almost the best in the world and almost no-one complains about paying for it. Most Australians are proud of it, especially when they see that in the American system the overall life expectancy of Americans is declining. It’s looking like Americans are a dying species.

Lazy Americans maybe. Also what works for Australia might not work for the 350 million people America has to worry about.

 

[Zephyn]

I understand id likely start with training at a vocational school and then an internship right? How common are apprenticeships?

 

[bmf666]

Also good to learn multiple trades. Many other engineers I know are also electricians. But idk where to even start

Not sure if your being serious but if so how old are you? What kind of engineer are you? If you already have an engineering degree but keep messing up jobs because of drug addiction it’s going happen as an electrician also. You can’t find work in your field?

 

[bmf666]

I understand id likely start with training at a vocational school and then an internship right? How common are apprenticeships?

I’m with local 26 in dc. Trying to get in the union is definitely you’re best bet. How old are you? It’s a 5 year apprenticeship you just have to do the aptitude test and an interview. Honestly the best one is the elevator union, If I was younger I would do that. They have the same process, just go apply to both and make sure u past the aptitude test

 

[Zephyn]

Not sure if your being serious but if so how old are you? What kind of engineer are you? If you already have an engineering degree but keep messing up jobs because of drug addiction it’s going happen as an electrician also. You can’t find work in your field?

I have no degree. I'm honest about that with jobs. I'm a developmental operations engineer training to become a software engineer. My drug addiction is seemingly and hopefully permenantly becoming less of an issue with age. I can find work in my field quite easily, idk what I'm worried about. It stresses me out covering for jobs I have no good reference for in my resume due to drug addiction.. But id feel safer with some backup trades. I'm 28.

 

[bmf666]

Dude the things I’m talking about are full time gigs. If you got something going go all in with that, it’s hard to find good help. As long as you’re reliable you’ll get ahead in this country

 

[cduggles]

This is the universal healthcare discussion thread. Please take more personal inquiries to other forums or private messages.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Regarding Australia vs America, if you correlate health care expenditure with life expectancy you get an increasingly negative number with America and an increasingly positive number with Australia. @bmf666 wants to make the highest possible value in society self-motivated hard work. I don't disagree that's an important value but I doubt it's more important than logic and reason and anyone with a modicum of economic understanding appreciates the principle of sunk costs and the foolishness of throwing good money after bad.

America is spending ever more dollars to reduce the life expectancy of Americans. It's a negative return investment. They're the one's that bankrupt you if you hold onto them.

Apart from 'principles' and political will I can't see any practical reason why the US could not use its health care expenditure dollars to increase the life expectancy of Americans in a manner similar to Australia. In all likelihood it could achieve increased life expectancy at a significantly cheaper per capita cost just with a single payer insurance system for starters. And that's before we even talk about increased quality of life changes might bring.

As thing stand, if we wait long enough this conversation may be a moot point because there might not be any Americans left to pursue it based on current demographic trends,