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Are the mainstream "dumb" people actually the smartest?

I think its about a balance between the two. You want to be able to step back and think, but you also want to be able to just live
 
Branggen said:
I think its about a balance between the two. You want to be able to step back and think, but you also want to be able to just live
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IIRC @JessFR said something similar.

I think the average is a safe bet, while outliers largely suffer.

But, i do think "dumb" people "suffer" far less than smart people.

So the outlier on the dumb end is like a pig in shit in regards to living like the buddha. And sure, i guess they'd be more happy too. But i really didn't want that to be the point.
 
madness00 said:
I don't think "dumb" people are necessarily ignorant. And i made this thread not even considering levels of happiness.

All I'm saying as that they're more present and smarter in the sense that they are living a more "enlightened" life" if there's such a thing.



This is sort of it, though i didn't consider them having a better grasp of paradoxes and contradictions.

Now that i consider it, i don't believe it to be true. I don't think these mindful, "dumb" folk really have the capacity to pinpoint a paradox.

I just can't see a very "dumb" person explaining to me how enlightenment is a paradox. I just don't think that would happen.

But i DO believe they are better at "living non paradoxically" or are better at being consistent. I just don't think they are aware of it.
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The problem might be what we consider “dumb”.

I don’t think the people on either side is “dumb”. They just have different strengths and weaknesses. However to be more specific, people with mental illnesses such as schizophrenia or autism have particular qualities that enable them to better understand the nature of reality and do in fact have a better time comprehending paradox and duality. Whether they are able to explain it or not.

Sometimes it’s the fact that they are so consistent in their behavior that it makes them more aware of the opposite and gives them a better idea of what it might be like to not be so consistent. A lot of them are stuck inside their own minds and can’t relay their metaphysical contemplations the way they would like to so you never really know what they are aware of and what they aren’t aware of and as a result they seem less intelligent than other people who do not have mental illness.

But again I don’t know what you mean by dumb. I don’t believe that any standardized iq test can authentically determine whether or not someone is intelligent given that it is composed of a particular set of computations and statistical analysis that is focused more towards worldly practical ideas and secular concepts that are made to put a number on our intelligence and make some people feel superior and others inferior.
 
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@madness00 You refer to the average dumb fuck. I don't think they actually live more rooted in the moment or more mindful (and therefore suffer less) than a intellectually more cabable person. Isn't that, by large, a matter of conditioning too? Thinking is a habit! And there is nothing wrong with a powerful mind in the same way that there is nothing wrong with having strong legs, on the contrary, you can run fast or far if you choose to. It's a gift, but only when you know how to use them (the legs), same with the mind.

Everything with potency, a tool or a method or whatever, can be used either way. It looks like you can do more damage with a scalpel than with a spoon, when you don't know how to operate it or what it is for. Is it the same for a more resp. less cabable mind? And does that relate to suffering or living artfully as you called it? Is the suffering created by a average mind less than that of a 'high-voltage' mind? Or does the capacity to suffer differ?

I think conditioning is a major factor in this, and one doesn't need to be intelligent to undergo that. (Thanks Pavlov.) And what is suffering anyway? It has been said:
There are two ways to be unhappy (to suffer): Not getting what you want, and getting what you want.
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It seems suffering equates or is strongly related on unconscious reactivity. When your well-being is at the mercy of external things, people, conditions etc., that's bondage. When you are doomed to impulsively acting out/feeling your conditioning, that's suffering, isn't it? Being human may represent a unique opportunity to step beyond this and I have the suspision that not being stupid increases the chances of grasping and perhaps doing that (resp. having the openness for letting this happen). And I'm not necessarily refering to the IQ-type intelligence here. This whole "enlightenment business" seems to be not so much about gaining, accumulating and doing, but "losing" or letting go of certain things (delusion, conditioning, etc.) and I'm not convinced that being the average retard is an actual advantage here.
 
ovenbakedskittles said:
The problem might be what we consider “dumb”.

I don’t think the people on either side is “dumb”. They just have different strengths and weaknesses. However to be more specific, people with mental illnesses such as schizophrenia or autism have particular qualities that enable them to better understand the nature of reality and do in fact have a better time comprehending paradox and duality. Whether they are able to explain it or not.

Sometimes it’s the fact that they are so consistent in their behavior that it makes them more aware of the opposite and gives them a better idea of what it might be like to not be so consistent. A lot of them are stuck inside their own minds and can’t relay their metaphysical contemplations the way they would like to and as a result they seem less intelligent than other people who do not have mental illness.

But again I don’t know what you mean by dumb. I don’t believe that any standardized iq test can authentically determine whether or not someone is intelligent given that it is composed of a particular set of computations and statistical analysis that is focused more towards worldly practical ideas and secular concepts that are made to put a number on our intelligence and make some people feel superior and others inferior.
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It has been noted that an IQ test isn't the best determinant by others as well, but i used it because it's just an easy target and we all are familiar with it.

Of course everyone has a wide range of strengths and weaknesses.

But to your point, i still don't really understand how these people who you speak of are more consistent. And bringing mental illness into it just seems to make it more convoluted, to me.

Consistent because they have a specific diagnosed spread sheet of traits shared with each other? But aren't they still human? How exactly are they more consistent?

I'm not judging i have a MI as well.
 
F.U.B.A.R. said:
Meanwhile, all those dumbfucks are progressing with their lives at the usual pace. Suddenly, it dawns on you that those people you previously had contempt for are outperforming you in life.

I came out of my 20 year addiction suddenly realising that I've got 20 years to catch up on. That's a daunting prospect and could so easily result in relapse. But I've got to just bite the bullet and reevaluate myself.

If there's one thing that addiction has taught me, its humility...
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Does that mean you suffer because you don't outperform you peers, as you "should" do, for whatever reason? Or are you glad that it came that way cause it taught you humility, enjoying the peace and perspective that perhaps comes with that?

*smart ass mode: off*
 
bongdong said:
@madness00 You refer to the average dumb fuck. I don't think they actually live more rooted in the moment or more mindful (and therefore suffer less) than a intellectually more cabable person. Isn't that, by large, a matter of conditioning too? Thinking is a habit! And there is nothing wrong with a powerful mind in the same way that there is nothing wrong with having strong legs, on the contrary, you can run fast or far if you choose to. It's a gift, but only when you know how to use them (the legs), same with the mind.

Everything with potency, a tool or a method or whatever, can be used either way. It looks like you can do more damage with a scalpel than with a spoon, when you don't know how to operate it or what it is for. Is it the same for a more resp. less cabable mind? And does that relate to suffering or living artfully as you called it? Is the suffering created by a average mind less than that of a 'high-voltage' mind? Or does the capacity to suffer differ?

I think conditioning is a major factor in this, and one doesn't need to be intelligent to undergo that. (Thanks Pavlov.) And what is suffering anyway? It has been said:

It seems suffering equates or is strongly related on unconscious reactivity. When your well-being is at the mercy of external things, people, conditions etc., that's bondage. When you are doomed to impulsively acting out/feeling your conditioning, that's suffering, isn't it? Being human may represent a unique opportunity to step beyond this and I have the suspision that not being stupid increases the chances of grasping and perhaps doing that (resp. having the openness for letting this happen). And I'm not necessarily refering to the IQ-type intelligence here. This whole "enlightenment business" seems to be not so much about gaining, accumulating and doing, but "losing" or letting go of certain things (delusion, conditioning, etc.) and I'm not convinced that being the average retard is an actual advantage here.
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That's an interesting challenge.

No one starts closer to enlightenment than anyone else. Or, less far from it if we were born into it. And you're right that it's probably about conditioning.

Stepping out from being impulsive is more a skill which high voltage thinkers are capable of? Or something? (My reading comp. suffers). I think you could be right about that, if i understand you.

All in all.. You make really good points and are the first person to really make me rethink my theory, lol.

BUT.. simple minds may not be all that effected by their environment.
 
madness00 said:
Stepping out from being impulsive is more a skill which high voltage thinkers are capable of? Or something?
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Not necessarily, it looks a bit like the opposite. Like letting loose a race horse, it may go off like a rocket for miles and miles, compared to a limb mule that probably just sticks around. The "act" (or the art) of letting go, of accepting the such-ness of the moment however it may be, not resisting it (which is what the ego structure thrives on) is a passive thing, more or less. It's a non-doing, that pretty much everbody is cabable of regardless of skill and intelligence. Hence the image of the "wise fool", whether it's accurate or not. And I think that's a great and hopeful message or insight. But the part where a some intelligence may come in handy is figuring out that it might be a good idea to behave that way or to refrain from certain things in the first place in order to lessen suffering. Everybody can indefinitely search for a solution on the level of effects, deliberately isolating causes is perhaps a skill that requires some form of intelligence and in that sense, yes.

madness00 said:
No one starts closer to enlightenment than anyone else. Or, less far from it if we were born into it.
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First of all, I don't know! Now having that settled and leaving all the funny linguistic games in that domain aside: It doesn't look that way for me; at least not totally spontaneous or random as somebody wrote, but perhaps beyond human comprehension. There seems to be a causal unfolding (or whatever one wants to call it) behind it, like with everything else. (And there again, all these other issues like 'free will' etc. come in afresh.) Suffering itself seems to be a huge catalyst, and is peoples first and sometimes only (spiritual) teacher. Have you noticed, when shit really hurts, things start to change pretty quickly all of a sudden sometimes? Just a thought I wanted to throw in there.

madness00 said:
BUT.. simple minds may not be all that effected by their environment.
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That might be true, but I think one has to be reeeeally retarded to don't care at all. And as others have pointed out, if you are that fried you will struggle with everyday tasks and that doesn't look like fun to me. It takes not much to be able to suffer I think, but a lot of stupidity to endure it without ever asking why this is. And the likelihood of change in such a situation is limited, I guess.
Consistency is the playground of dull minds. (Y. N. Harari)
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bongdong said:
Not necessarily, it looks a bit like the opposite. Like letting loose a race horse, it may go off like a rocket for miles and miles, compared to a limb mule that probably just sticks around. The "act" (or the art) of letting go, of accepting the such-ness of the moment however it may be, not resisting it (which is what the ego structure thrives on) is a passive thing, more or less. It's a non-doing, that pretty much everbody is cabable of regardless of skill and intelligence. Hence the image of the "wise fool", whether it's accurate or not. And I think that's a great and hopeful message or insight. But the part where a some intelligence may come in handy is figuring out that it might be a good idea to behave that way or to refrain from certain things in the first place in order to lessen suffering. Everybody can indefinitely search for a solution on the level of effects, deliberately isolating causes is perhaps a skill that requires some form of intelligence and in that sense, yes.


First of all, I don't know! Now having that settled and leaving all the funny linguistic games in that domain aside: It doesn't look that way for me; at least not totally spontaneous or random as somebody wrote, but perhaps beyond human comprehension. There seems to be a causal unfolding (or whatever one wants to call it) behind it, like with everything else. (And there again, all these other issues like 'free will' etc. come in afresh.) Suffering itself seems to be a huge catalyst, and is peoples first and sometimes only (spiritual) teacher. Have you noticed, when shit really hurts, things start to change pretty quickly all of a sudden sometimes? Just a thought I wanted to throw in there.


That might be true, but I think one has to be reeeeally retarded to don't care at all. And as others have pointed out, if you are that fried you will struggle with everyday tasks and that doesn't look like fun to me. It takes not much to be able to suffer I think, but a lot of stupidity to endure it without ever asking why this is. And the likelihood of change in such a situation is limited, I guess.
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I think we are in more agreement, or at least equally as confused, than it seems.

But your last paragraph is a challenge.

Yeah, maybe "dumb" people have less of an ability to adjust out of a situation that finds them suffering. Maybe they're so cooked that it leaves them in a perpetual state of confusion, as to why things are just so darn unfair.

So, we're delving deep into the depths of mental retardation, you and i.

;)

I think, really, we could even fiddle with Freud's ID. With his permission of course.

Would you rather be severely retarded but have a superego, or mildly retarded but be an ID wizard?
 
bongdong said:
What you mean delving into? Can one delve into something one is in? You clearly underestimate my capacity to confuse, limit and retard myself (by overthinking)! 😜 No delving, I speak from experience.. 😆
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Oh, buddy boy bongdong, i hear you.

I do the same.

Hold my hand we'll get off.. together.
 
very interesting question. i would agree that folks who seem to be less free-thinking seem to suffer less. but ofc that is my own biased judgement of them

i think higher "intelligence" leads one to overthink. "paralysis by analysis" if you will. a lot of really bright people seem to have trouble dealing with the "normal world". Ludwig Boltzmann the physicist who started statistical mehcanics committed suicide.

if you accept this mainstream world of thought then it follows that life would be easier, and hey maybe that is the smarter option
 
When I first started on my study of the Tarot I went and purchased all the material I needed. This was a book, a set of larger sized uncolored deck of the major arcana and some coloring pencils. I handed the store owner a $20 and he handed me two pennies as change and I'll never forget what he said to me.

"Remember, brother. One coin for each side of the brain"

Balance is key; neither intuition nor deductive reasoning is better, just a different approach !

Nice subject though :cool:
 
thegreenhand said:
i guess that begs the question.. are there any reliable metrics to measure "intelligence"?
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It would have to be extremely comprehensive and probably take into consideration unmeasurable shits.

IQ tests should get rid of the vocab section. Who cares. It should be more about your potential to learn, not what you already know.
 
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