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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Are the mainstream "dumb" people actually the smartest?

I admit I haven't read the entire thread, but what does "smart" mean to you? I think this needs to be defined to answer the question. Most people consider smart to be pretty much synonymous with intelligence, so as far as intelligence can be measured by IQ, no, dumb people are not actually smart.

Being a little more generous with the vagueness of the question, I could interpret it to mean, have we got the wrong idea about intelligence? But intelligence is a measure of cognitive and/or intellectual ability, itself being something that is used to mentally grow, and become capable of surpassing intellectual challenges that one was not capable of before. Being present is not necessarily an indicator of intelligence, although it can be. It's arguable that "lower" animals, or even brainless life like trees are the most "present" creatures, since they are almost 100% in the moment. A tree does no ruminating about it's past or planning for it's future. Neither do a large proportion of the animal kingdom. Cats are typically posed as an example of aloof, fairly zen animals. Are cats smarter than humans? I'd say probably not.

If anything, being present is more of an indicator of intelligence in more highly cognitive animals like humans, because it's so much harder and is a skill that needs to be learned. But this is only true if it is actually learned - if it comes naturally, such as to the aforementioned zen dumb people under discussion, then it's not necessarily a measure of intelligence or "smartness" because it's not something that had to be worked out or learned. It's just the default state of things, and that person may not be mentally capable of being any other way.

If someone is capable of living outside the moment, and in the moment, depending on the situation and what they choose to do, then this is far more likely to be a measure of intelligence than someone who is only capable of one thing.

I keep using the word intelligence instead of "smartness" because IMO the latter is just not defined here. But, a penguin who doesn't fly into a hurricane isn't smart for doing so - it's just not capable of being any other way.
 
I took it as, maybe the "dumb" people (the people who go with the flow and don't question anything and just conform their whole lives) are actually smarter because their lives are easier and less filled with turmoil.
 
Xorkoth said:
I took it as, maybe the "dumb" people (the people who go with the flow and don't question anything and just conform their whole lives) are actually smarter because their lives are easier and less filled with turmoil.
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I get what you mean.
I don't think their lives are easier though. I've met a lot of people who follow the mainstream and their lives are not easier. Much of their life is spent seeing themselves as a stranger in the world, a victim, powerless, unable to understand things beyond their limited comprehension. Many are lost if you really take them away from their lifesaving device and allow them to swim for themselves. Many of these people cannot empower themselves in their own lives and so they suffer. They put all their hopes in somebody or something else to fix them. I wouldn't say this is smart nor less filled with turmoil, quite the opposite. Seen it for myself. They always have issues and instead of them being circumstantial and transient, their issues remain until they are pushed into the depths of their psyche, forever impacting their lives.
On the surface they may seem fine but many people daily suffer with more deeper existential issues that stem from their life choices and what they choose to believe.
They suffer because they choose to suffer.
There was a decision made at one point that now defines their life choices, their belief systems, their view of themselves and the world. And deep down everybody knows they have a choice and everybody knows deep down it is only themselves that can listen to themselves and choose to recognize their own potential, understand themselves and the world around them and transform themselves. When they don't, they pay the price.
Get most of these people to have a high dose psychedelic trip and they will soon face these truths.

Some people simply pretend life is not happening, going by, slowly coming to a stop, or that it's going to last forever and the world 'out there' sorts itself out as if by magic.
And then they get to old age and they struggle once their faculties are fading to hold onto their dysfunctional coping mechanisms, their excuses, that stopped from actually facing the truth that it was down to them to learn to swim.
People have a choice to simply blindly go on through life. And when they make that choice, they are defined by those choices and the way in which life works, reality, nature etc ensures that you reap what you sow.

We wouldn't live in such a complex rollercoaster society defined by many negative, toxic and destructive things if our society was smart and our lives not filled with turmoil.
If everybody was fine, why isn't this reflected in the reality of our societies? Would we all crave drug inducing experiences, addictions, escapism, materialism and superficial things, narcissism, would we all be queueing up at Apple for the latest iPhone if we knew there was more to life than an lifeless object that holds no more value than often what is marketed to us by billionaire tech companies? Would our prisons be full if we were smart and our lives not filled with turmoil? Mental health issues so high?

If you look at the bigger picture you can see the truth. The reflection of our society is the reflection of those within it and how they see themselves.
What DO people see when they look in the mirror?
My guess is it's better NOT to look in the mirror.
And because it's easier to do that, you carry this throughout your life. It's imprinted deep within your psyche. The result is a society that teaches itself to not face it's shadow, not look at the truth. And this is where the problems are.
 
finitelifeform said:
I get what you mean.
I don't think their lives are easier though. I've met a lot of people who follow the mainstream and their lives are not easier. Much of their life is spent seeing themselves as a stranger in the world, a victim, powerless, unable to understand things beyond their limited comprehension. Many are lost if you really take them away from their lifesaving device and allow them to swim for themselves. Many of these people cannot empower themselves in their own lives and so they suffer. They put all their hopes in somebody or something else to fix them. I wouldn't say this is smart nor less filled with turmoil, quite the opposite. Seen it for myself. They always have issues and instead of them being circumstantial and transient, their issues remain until they are pushed into the depths of their psyche, forever impacting their lives.
On the surface they may seem fine but many people daily suffer with more deeper existential issues that stem from their life choices and what they choose to believe.
They suffer because they choose to suffer.
There was a decision made at one point that now defines their life choices, their belief systems, their view of themselves and the world. And deep down everybody knows they have a choice and everybody knows deep down it is only themselves that can listen to themselves and choose to recognize their own potential, understand themselves and the world around them and transform themselves. When they don't, they pay the price.
Get most of these people to have a high dose psychedelic trip and they will soon face these truths.

Some people simply pretend life is not happening, going by, slowly coming to a stop, or that it's going to last forever and the world 'out there' sorts itself out as if by magic.
And then they get to old age and they struggle once their faculties are fading to hold onto their dysfunctional coping mechanisms, their excuses, that stopped from actually facing the truth that it was down to them to learn to swim.
People have a choice to simply blindly go on through life. And when they make that choice, they are defined by those choices and the way in which life works, reality, nature etc ensures that you reap what you sow.

We wouldn't live in such a complex rollercoaster society defined by many negative, toxic and destructive things if our society was smart and our lives not filled with turmoil.
If everybody was fine, why isn't this reflected in the reality of our societies? Would we all crave drug inducing experiences, addictions, escapism, materialism and superficial things, narcissism, would we all be queueing up at Apple for the latest iPhone if we knew there was more to life than an lifeless object that holds no more value than often what is marketed to us by billionaire tech companies? Would our prisons be full if we were smart and our lives not filled with turmoil? Mental health issues so high?

If you look at the bigger picture you can see the truth. The reflection of our society is the reflection of those within it and how they see themselves.
What DO people see when they look in the mirror?
My guess is it's better NOT to look in the mirror.
And because it's easier to do that, you carry this throughout your life. It's imprinted deep within your psyche. The result is a society that teaches itself to not face it's shadow, not look at the truth. And this is where the problems are.
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You're right, but I think in this context, the 'dumb' people are not aware of the futility of their existence, whereas the 'smart' people are only too aware and let it ruin their lives.
 
The most depressed people I've known are also usually some of the most intelligent. The more you're aware of outside of your immediate world, the more you realize the problems, and the pain and suffering. Until your awareness expands outward beyond Earth and into the stars, and then everything is put in its proper perspective and you're filled with a sense of awe and wonder and amazement that you even get to experience this gift of life.
 
Xorkoth said:
The most depressed people I've known are also usually some of the most intelligent. The more you're aware of outside of your immediate world, the more you realize the problems, and the pain and suffering. Until your awareness expands outward beyond Earth and into the stars, and then everything is put in its proper perspective and you're filled with a sense of awe and wonder and amazement that you even get to experience this gift of life.
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Well said.
 
F.U.B.A.R. said:
You're right, but I think in this context, the 'dumb' people are not aware of the futility of their existence, whereas the 'smart' people are only too aware and let it ruin their lives.
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Well said. Ignorance is bliss. But it's only bliss when you live an incongruent/false life and you no longer know the difference between the lies you convince yourself are true and what actually exists beyond. And in that is suffering and it takes on the form of all the things we attribute to people and behaviour that is not beneficial to ourselves and to society. Futility is a great word because I think it's at the core of some of these issues. There is a naivety, a childlike myth around life that the parents will fix everything, someone somewhere is doing the work, the planet operates as if by magic etc, worker elves in the clouds making things go round, life goes on forever, tomorrow will always exist etc. And this is unfortunately how many people see the reality they live in, much like a Santas grotto where magic and wonder and innocence is all you need. While this is beneficial in that it somewhat provides a protective shield over a person, particularly if you're talking about a child, it also eventually becomes a curse. Bubble wrapped people become weak people, become easily manipulated, easily led, have far less developed coping mechanisms and strategies for dealing all sorts of eventualities in life. These people are still suffering but they suffer while wrapped up in a blanket and so it's even worse because like babies wrapped up in a blanket they do not comprehend their own suffering, they just know deep down something is wrong. Maybe they do really know parts of the issues and could never bring themselves to deal with it because being wrapped up in a soothing blanket as a child makes all the issues go away. And so they go off into life having already been damaged and somewhat broken by the discrepencies and flaws in their own life story.

Smart people however suffer in a different way and they suffer through the exposure to the raw truth behind reality. You could say that potentially ruins their life but I disagree and say that it's through their ability to even recognize these patterns and aspects of reality that makes them less inclined to suffer and for their lives to be ruined. It just so happens that being intelligent also means you have A LOT more responsibility and with responsibility comes more stress, more involvement in dealing with issues, more accountability, more pressure on you to find solutions (both from community and from within). It also doesn't make the inner aspect of all this easier to deal with but at the same time, through understanding all this and then being aware that you do understand all this, aren't you able to then use the same resources and awareness to deal with the consequences of you understanding the consequences? The intelligence doesn't stop at simply understanding theres an issue, it can be taken further and utilized to understand how that impacts you and what you can do about it. Modern psychotherapy is a perfect example of the utilization of this understanding and then internalizing it and using it better ourselves. War for example is largely external in that it obviously happens in the outside world and we can be extremely intelligent and understanding of every little detail during war. What people forget though is themselves and their own connection and relationship to the outside world. And so they go back home and they suffer immeasurably (I have dealt with C-PTSD on and of all my adult life and so have lots of experience with it's symptoms). They can turn the abilities they had on the battlefield to themselves. There is somewhat of a void. This is crucial I believe in preventing all these innate resources and all the potential to be wasted focusing solely on everything and anything other than ourselves. If the intelligence got us there, surely it can get us back?

I'm not saying however that life is not difficult being intelligent. I absolutely believe it is. I'm just saying it's NOT futile. While life might be futile in and of itself, the time you have while alive is not. Within this finite existence, there is limitless potential. Philosophy, mysticism, religion, spirituality, psychology, poetry, great works of art, music etc talks about this vividly.
Xorkoth said:
The most depressed people I've known are also usually some of the most intelligent. The more you're aware of outside of your immediate world, the more you realize the problems, and the pain and suffering. Until your awareness expands outward beyond Earth and into the stars, and then everything is put in its proper perspective and you're filled with a sense of awe and wonder and amazement that you even get to experience this gift of life.
Click to expand...
Yes, precisely. But it's this understanding you have and within that tiny grain of sand that is your existence that you will find all the limitless potential and so I don't believe nor would I ever give in to the idea that intelligence ensures depression. You are right though in that depression is linked with intelligence, theres a lot of research that proves this. What the therapeutic literature teaches (I'm a certified counsellor/therapist and have studied for over a decade) is within the limiting factors perceived with such a gift comes the gift itself and the gift is what you already know brings you greater awareness, understanding and capabilities. So why not utilize that to understand your depression and then bring more of what it is YOU DO want into your life so that depression becomes less of an inevitability? It's how you understand yourself and perceive things that determines your mental state. Likewise, your emotions, feelings, thoughts, beliefs, memories etc determine your mental state - if you let them. If you have the capability to understand this and the intelligence to understand many other things, what's stopping you from coming inbetween the points between mental health (not illness) and depression? In psychology it's called stimulus-response. That's why they say depression is a neurotic condition because many people who are neurotic react to their immediate environment and feel powerless. Learned helplessness then creeps in which then creates the environment by which things happen that you don't want to happen (because you have no choice but to let it happen) and so enters depression, a state that is best felt by things not being right.
They feel they have NO choice but to mindlessly react and be dragged along by events internal and external. Rollo May, a key proponent in existential therapy made a good point about neurosis outlining how he used to see patients (this was back in the fifties and sixties) and their underlying issues was their CHOOSING to present themselves as seperate to their involvement in their own experience. I wish I had his book with me to relay the exact quote because it was such a valuable snippet of wisdom.
 
I think intelligence is genetic, so there are different kinds of intelligence. I'm not trying to sound smart because I can't prove it but that's how it seems to me. We're all wired differently and in unique, unexpected ways
 
Gormur said:
I think intelligence is genetic, so there are different kinds of intelligence. I'm not trying to sound smart because I can't prove it but that's how it seems to me. We're all wired differently and in unique, unexpected ways
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Yeah, genetics play a key role. There's no denying it. I think much more is involved though. Social aspects I believe are far more important. A person who has a poor social environment and poor development tends to have a lower IQ because along with poor social environment often comes with decreased cognitive and intellectual abilities. It depends on how you measure intelligence. I know people who did poorly in high school and never got a degree from college/university but they are among the most capable individuals I have met, sometimes moreso than their academically superior counterparts. Success is also mistakenly defined by academic intelligence as well despite many people in society having never gone past high school yet many people being successful. I've met many people who are successful yet in terms of how we define intelligence, well, they are dumb if you look at them through the lens of general consensus.
 
Oh I agree. I think so much of nowadays' intelligence is measured by academic performance alone. It's not fair for those people who aren't well-rounded. I guess survival intelligence (I made that up) should represent something. I'm good at survival but not at all academically. I bet there are plenty of people like me who excel in only one area and we're definitely not dumb, which is my point here. There's also something of a worldly intelligence people either have or they don't

It's an interesting topic for me since on my mom's maternal side there are scientists/professors and musicians but the two are divided by family. On her paternal side they're all mathematically inclined, like my uncle knows how to answer problems he's never studied but he sees it in his head and recites these long problems like pages long in physics from memory. I guess when he was in highschool he just showed up for tests because he said he already knew all the answers

I wish I had an ability in math. I'm good at music and there's some math involved in learning theory but it's hard to utilize music skills in the world and make a living. I don't know if my post makes sense
 
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Hmm, I think thinking is the biggest illness of the modern society. Silent mind is a healthy mind, I use thinking mostly for problem solving and in my view the more you think equals to more problems.
 
The standard IQ tests issued out, as I understand, makes for a pretty lucrative business. A way to measure your IQ inevitably becomes a sort of Jock-mentality. I enjoy taking IQ tests from time to time but usually forget the score in the end it not at all free. Whatever IQ tests are out there that are supposedly free have questions such as "When did Moses build the Ark?"

Probably a better standard for IQ measurement supposing you're a parent to a child would be to give them some form of a wooden puzzle (like the wooden golf puzzle for example) to see if they could figure it out. I find puzzles to be a great measure of resourcefulness but wonder not why it's a lesser accuplacer; like I said - IQ tests are a business. It seems to make more sense to those businesses to grade a person based on a specific number of questions with either right or wrong answers.

I think I like the idea you've put forward here, somewhat, madness00... at least in the way I read it. But verily, I'm not convinced dull or dumb people live explicitly in the moment, or at least not to the degree that they appear.

I'll refrain from sharing my personal thoughts on why that is, however, years ago I had the misfortune of having to live nearby a sociopath. Another good term for this particular type of person is a dark empath. Basically, this character (I'll call Winslow) felt he could get away with anything (especially around certain types of people). Due to his size and uncommon height, it was difficult for anyone to perceive the idea of getting anything over this guy's head, despite his definite lack of awareness. However, through a strict need to control or to need to control the world around him, Winslow was actually terrified of what he couldn't control. And after years of studying the oaf, I eventually figured out the reason for his incompetence and machiavellianism had everything to do with the underlying truth that he had convinced himself of:

Dark empaths score high in both empathic/empathetic understanding and dark traits. In no way are they gifted with genuine empathy, but they understand it better than anything, I assure you. I have trouble convincing people of this, though. But I get it, yeah. People who seem to skate through life with picturesque smiles, high or at least decent grades, and manage their job keeping some apparent rhythm often do appear present, yes. This is primarily due to whatever they think or know they can hide, no matter which way you look at it.

Suppose now there are two types of people: on one hand we have the people who meditate and therefore don't have to think in order to go to work and do their chores. On the other hand we have the type of person who may appear to be high socially functioning, becomes popular and is at least thought to be charming: this person, has almost no ability to stick to one specific topic, can't tie their own shoes without wondering about their own edipous complex, is almost always consciously or unconsciously worrying about what others feel, and understands other people's needs almost the point of pure insanity. What separates this narcissist from an over-achiever is that one works hard in order to socially dominate people while the other one needs to control themselves and to get that they create their own sense of purpose.
 
iridescentblack said:
What separates this narcissist from an over-achiever is that one works hard in order to socially dominate people while the other one needs to control themselves and to get that they create their own sense of purpose.
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Nice post, but I think the need to overachieve comes from a lack of love or attention when someone is young. I know someone who was driven to win a Nobel prize because his mother didn’t love him. It didn’t fix the problem, by the way, but I guess it’s better than just being someone whose mother didn’t love them.
 
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