What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[psy997]

Is the MDMA that you are calling “a literal pile of shit” reagent or lab tested? I don’t mean to be condescending but I have hard time believing that the same chemical compound (give or take the chirality) could provide such vastly different effects. The more logical explanation to me would be that one is simply not MDMA or at least MDMA cut with something else

Read the thread. Yes. It's testing as MDMA.

 

[G_Chem]

Is the MDMA that

Is the MDMA that you are calling “a literal pile of shit” reagent or lab tested? I don’t mean to be condescending but I have hard time believing that the same chemical compound (give or take the chirality) could provide such vastly different effects. The more logical explanation to me would be that one is simply not MDMA or at least MDMA cut with something else

As Psy said we’ve got many people who’ve had their product GCMS tested to show MDMA which still gave lack luster results.

So far theories range from potential substances which can test as MDMA, to my guess which is impurities cause most of these issues.

-GC

 

[vecktor]

OK, but doesn't the piperonal synthesis proceed via MDP2NP (Henry reaction with nitroethane) which is then either reduced to MDA & methylated, or oxidised in a Nef reaction to MDP2P and then reacted with methylamine and a reducing agent (Al, NaBH4, NaCNBH3, LiAlH4, catalytic hydrogenation, etc)? Do you know which specific route was used? I personally don;t think it matters, but the discussion would benefit from detailed infor.

Not neccesarily nitrostyrene, piperonal darzens to glycidate then to MDP2P then reductive amination, and there are other variations obvious to anyone reasonably practised in the art. for example umpolung approaches followed by rearrangement.
MDMA as a simple molelule has a lot of ways to attack it if you want, but none of the alternatives are as cheap as piperonal safrole or PMKglycidate through the ketone.
There are some really funky routes that are not public but are fairly obvious if you disconnect the benzyl to ring carbon to give methylenedioxybenzene as one component and the complete side chain synthon as another.

I don't think the route matters that much so long as the synthesis is carried out correctly and there is sufficiant purification of the product.

 

[vecktor]

As Psy said we’ve got many people who’ve had their product GCMS tested to show MDMA which still gave lack luster results.

So far theories range from potential substances which can test as MDMA, to my guess which is impurities cause most of these issues.

-GC

precisely. There is a world of difference between qualitative GCMS which says MDMA yes/no and more serious GCMS that says MDMA plus whatever other junk is there or not.

 

[vecktor]

Thanks for the info byte. I have never personally worked with a HPLC. They do seem awfully finicky compared to the GC.

In my experience the HPLC side of it is the relatively easy bit of LCMS HPLC-UV is super robust bit it does need a decent length of column, the MS side is usually the cause of headaches, it is a bit of an ask take a solvent weighing 60-100 Da and an analyte weighing perhaps 3x that, completely separate the solvent from the analyte completely without some weird stuff going on. you have to get rid of 100ul per min plus of solvent. This is much much easier when the analyte weighs 500 or 1000 Da or more. Allow for the fact that the atmospheric pressure ionisation is horrendously inefficient, and relatively bad tempered and either you decide to throw away all fragments or analytes less than say 100 Da or you see all sorts of solvent clusters and general junk. LC-MS is great in theory. Big fan of LCMS TOF especially HRMS variations with lock, 4 dp mass accuracy is very powerful in identifying molecular formulas.

You can also break GC-MS but it is more difficult, students do come up with creative ways to do it all the same. Injecting acidic water is the classic, weighs obviously 18g.mol 1 mol of vapour is 24 litres at stp and a lot more at 250oC so the 2ul injectin flashes back into the gas lines and filters blows a load of old junk out of there and shoots into the inlet liner. result dead liner and damaged column.

 

[thegreenhand]

I’ve been reading the thread but it’s 211 pages so no I'm not exactly gonna be completely on the same page as y'all sorry. Just wanted to add my opinion that's all

 

[indigoaura]

Generally people that lose the magic have shorter experiences, less of that overwhelming love and gushy feeling. They aren’t lethargic like some of the shit today will do, they don’t get brutally nasty comedowns, they still seem to be enjoying it. Their pupils are dilated. Etc.

Most of what I have read about "losing the magic" involves restructuring of the serotonin system. Less love, and more noticeable dopamine effects. To me, what makes the "meh" product different is the lack of dopamine effects in favor of this very sleepy, glued to the couch effect.

@user666 Thanks for so succinctly summarizing decent MDMA when you said, "Finally, I was able to buy a good product that dilates eyes, locks the jaw is energetic and lovey at 80mg for 5h."

If you don't mind me asking, had you been getting "meh" product for some time before this? How long have you been rolling overall? What is your overall history of use? How would you describe the difference between the two products?

I rolled yesterday with the same product I used previously on NYE. This was after a 5 day treatment with BPC-157 as recommended in another thread. There was no noticeable improvement in effect, and I was glued to the couch mostly. I took photos of my pupils throughout the experience. I never had fully dilated pupils, only minimally dilated. After this experience, I think this product is a very clean version of "meh." I don't doubt it has been washed/re-crystallized etc. I appreciate it that I am basically functioning normally today, without the side-effects of contaminants. But the lack of eye dilation is telling.

In other news, I am hoping to have some full GCMS data for two of my meh samples soon. When I get it, I will post it for analysis.

 

[thegreenhand]

As Psy said we’ve got many people who’ve had their product GCMS tested to show MDMA which still gave lack luster results.

So far theories range from potential substances which can test as MDMA, to my guess which is impurities cause most of these issues.

-GC

I would agree that impurities are the probable cause. Sorry to be behind in the thread again but what is it exactly this thread is looking for? The specific adulterants used to make MehDMA? Or if something is literally wrong with the MDMA molecules being synthesized? If its the adulterants I'd assume that's gonna be different every batch

 

[indigoaura]

I would agree that impurities are the probable cause. Sorry to be behind in the thread again but what is it exactly this thread is looking for? The specific adulterants used to make MehDMA? Or if something is literally wrong with the MDMA molecules being synthesized? If its the adulterants I'd assume that's gonna be different every batch

I can't speak for everyone in the thread, but I would like to see the nature of the issue identified so that it can be tested for through common drug testing labs or through reagent testing. If we ever got to a point where a specific adulterant was identified, and that was added to the catalog of a company like Drugs Data, then awareness would go up. Maybe there would be a shift in the approach to cooking the product, and less of it would be on the market.

 

[thegreenhand]

I can't speak for everyone in the thread, but I would like to see the nature of the issue identified so that it can be tested for through common drug testing labs or through reagent testing. If we ever got to a point where a specific adulterant was identified, and that was added to the catalog of a company like Drugs Data, then awareness would go up. Maybe there would be a shift in the approach to cooking the product, and less of it would be on the market.

Gotcha, thanks for filling me in. I appreciate it.

That would certainly be an ideal scenario to identify a common cutting agent. I’ll let the big kids get back to their chemistry now

 

[psy997]

Thanks for engaging how you have, @thegreenhand :D

Basically, as indigoaura said, we've identified a large enough phenomena of lackluster and obviously "wrong" MDMA experiences and effects, noticed that this so-called MehDMA is still testing as MDMA on all apparent fronts, and now are endeavoring to discover why this phenomenon is occurring. At present, the thread we're following the most is that of active impurities. And, we're open to anything that would explain it. Personally, I think it's active impurities due to the ability of MehDMA to ruin a psychedelic or other drug experience if dosed during said experience. And, again, I'm still open.

And thinking about it, it's always possible some variation of MDMA that still tests as MDMA could have bad effects that ruin psychedelics. And then, I'm right back around to, who the hell knows? All I know is, I miss MDMA.

 

[thegreenhand]

Aha I'll consider myself a lucky one that I've only had good batches so far.

If I may ask have we identified any differences globally? Like North American vs. European vs. Asia for example.

 

[Goodwalt]

Aha I'll consider myself a lucky one that I've only had good batches so far.

If I may ask have we identified any differences globally? Like North American vs. European vs. Asia for example.

The lackluster effects basically repeat themselves all around the world but without proper testing of all these lackluster samples to find similarities among them it's impossible to prove our theory. So we are kind of close to where we started... we believe we are onto something but we cannot know for sure

 

[G_Chem]

Aha I'll consider myself a lucky one that I've only had good batches so far.

If I may ask have we identified any differences globally? Like North American vs. European vs. Asia for example.

It seems certain Canadian or possibly northern US domestic producers still make the “magic.” I’d wager also places in Aus and possibly Asia (although we don’t hear much from them folks.)

That said folks argue all the time over whether Dutch product is the best there is or worst.

-GC

 

[user666]

If you don't mind me asking, had you been getting "meh" product for some time before this?

6 years

How long have you been rolling overall?

~15 years

What is your overall history of use?

Once or twice per year. Always 3 months apart. Usually in my house with friends. I don't use any other drugs.
Did not use it for the last five years because I had only crap from DW and the effects were sleepy and required huge doses to even get the eyes dilated (I observed this after others have consumed it). I thought, that I have lost the magic but my friends complained about the lackluster meh experience, too (some were 1st timers). I sent some to saferparty.ch and the result was only MDMA around 200mg.
Then about half a year ago a friend got a good product and the entire party came alive (like 20 people). All of them were energetic dancing and touchy/cuddly talkatively open and emphatic with doses below 100mg and huge eyes till morning (including me). So I started looking for the same good stuff.

How would you describe the difference between the two products?

The meh stuff are champagne crystals. No smell. The good stuff is like white sugar. Also no smell.
The meh requires at least 2x higher dose. You almost cannot feel it at 100mg.
160mg of meh makes me high but sleepy in the beginning. Later the sleepiness goes away a little, and a some energy appears but not enough to make me want to get up from the couch. e.g. I like to sit alone, not talk with anyone and watch the fireplace. Also there is no love nor empathy. The music is not enhanced. The pupils are barely dilated and they visibly contract when I look at a light bulb. The touch feels normal to my skin (not "wow" like in the magic stuff). I had a tennis elbow once and the pain has gone away while on the meh. My penis can get hard on the meh stuff but I can't get it up on the magic stuff. The sexual thoughts are also different, e.g. I remember looking at a girl that I found particularly appealing and having fantasies about penetrating her roughly on the meh stuff, but on the magic stuff I just think about cuddling. At about 200mg of the meh, my jaw starts to lock, but just a little, it is not visible to others. All of this lasts only 3h on the meh with no pleasant afterglow afterwards. The magic stuff lasts almost 2x longer with a pleasant afterglow.

I work at a serology lab (I am not a doctor), I cannot test the composition of the drugs, but I am thinking about testing the blood of people on the meh and magic stuff for comparison?
Any suggestions what I should test for?

 

[draculic acid69]

In

6 years


~15 years


Once or twice per year. Always 3 months apart. Usually in my house with friends. I don't use any other drugs.
Did not use it for the last five years because I had only crap from DW and the effects were sleepy and required huge doses to even get the eyes dilated (I observed this after others have consumed it). I thought, that I have lost the magic but my friends complained about the lackluster meh experience, too (some were 1st timers). I sent some to saferparty.ch and the result was only MDMA around 200mg.
Then about half a year ago a friend got a good product and the entire party came alive (like 20 people). All of them were energetic dancing and touchy/cuddly talkatively open and emphatic with doses below 100mg and huge eyes till morning (including me). So I started looking for the same good stuff.


The meh stuff are champagne crystals. No smell. The good stuff is like white sugar. Also no smell.
The meh requires at least 2x higher dose. You almost cannot feel it at 100mg.
160mg of meh makes me high but sleepy in the beginning. Later the sleepiness goes away a little, and a some energy appears but not enough to make me want to get up from the couch. e.g. I like to sit alone, not talk with anyone and watch the fireplace. Also there is no love nor empathy. The music is not enhanced. The pupils are barely dilated and they visibly contract when I look at a light bulb. The touch feels normal to my skin (not "wow" like in the magic stuff). I had a tennis elbow once and the pain has gone away while on the meh. My penis can get hard on the meh stuff but I can't get it up on the magic stuff. The sexual thoughts are also different, e.g. I remember looking at a girl that I found particularly appealing and having fantasies about penetrating her roughly on the meh stuff, but on the magic stuff I just think about cuddling. At about 200mg of the meh, my jaw starts to lock, but just a little, it is not visible to others. All of this lasts only 3h on the meh with no pleasant afterglow afterwards. The magic stuff lasts almost 2x longer with a pleasant afterglow.

I work at a serology lab (I am not a doctor), I cannot test the composition of the drugs, but I am thinking about testing the blood of people on the meh and magic stuff for comparison?
Any suggestions what I should test for?

Interesting way to go with this.also has anyone with meh or magic got a way to test m.p. or b.p. or decomposition temperature of both? This could help tell the two apart.

 

[thegreenhand]

It seems certain Canadian or possibly northern US domestic producers still make the “magic.” I’d wager also places in Aus and possibly Asia (although we don’t hear much from them folks.)

That said folks argue all the time over whether Dutch product is the best there is or worst.

-GC

I can only speak for North America which has treated me well so far. Though one time a vendor had “Dutch crystal” that felt the same as the other times. Obviously you here’s no way to know where to actually came from though. Some of my friends are a little more risky with their drug taking and have had presses and that they rate very highly. Either containing quality mdma or mda on occasion

 

[indigoaura]

@user666 "I work at a serology lab (I am not a doctor), I cannot test the composition of the drugs, but I am thinking about testing the blood of people on the meh and magic stuff for comparison?
Any suggestions what I should test for?"

Earlier in the thread, someone suggested testing oxytocin levels. They said that would be a clear indicator of what was going on. MDMA should raise oxytocin levels. As I recall, the recommendation was to test the levels on the person sober, and then again when high. I think @Glubrahnum was the one who suggested this, but I can't recall. Unfortunately, he is unable to post at this time.

Do you mind me asking where you are located roughly?

Overall, your experience sounds very similar to mine. Long history of use, but a sudden and abrupt shift in effects that was noticed by everyone in my social group, and we noticed how new users no longer experienced it the same. I agree with your observations of differences in the compounds as well, except for the sexual observations. For me, the magic sex was where it was at. The meh sex is okay, but nothing like it was. But, I'm female, so my experience may be different there. I do think that the meh product can bring up more aggressive thoughts overall.

 

[indigoaura]

@thegreenhand - "That would certainly be an ideal scenario to identify a common cutting agent." We don't necessarily think it is a cutting agent in the sense that cooks are deliberately cutting the product with something. Seems more likely that variations in production and/or quality of chemicals etc produces a contaminant that is having an unexpected effect (possibly blocking transporters or receptors).

 

[psy997]

Yea I'd imagine whatever hormones are testable in blood, should be looked for.

Also, I'd like to echo the aggressive thoughts thing. On MehDMA I can irritable pretty easily. Given, nowadays I'm irritable simply because the product is shit. But looking back before I knew what was going on, it was also an issue then.