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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

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^^Any idea how to separate the dimer?

-GC
for certain? vacuum distillation of the freebase.
also pretty certain? tosylation of the mixture, MDMA which is a secondary amine will react and the sulfonamide will drop out as solid, the tertiary amine will not react. Hinsbergs method. the MDMA will be ruined but you will have successfully isolated the dimer.
mostly certain? careful recrystalization of the hydrochloride from alcohol, probably several times to be sure.

neither is commonly done by clandestines AFAIK

I was initially skeptical of this Meh Magic thing, but the super dosed pills and numerous reports kind of point to something wrong. The super high dosed pills are just plain dangerous, because no doubt the toxic side effects of MDMA are just as significant with Meh and Magic so super high dosing to try and get decent effects is just increasing the toxic side effects. The trouble is whilst MDMA remains illegal is the quality and dosing is going to be all over the place and people are going to keep getting hurt unnecessarily. MDMA will also get an undeserved bad reputation.

I think that there is a possibility that the mystery could be solved, whether the clandestine idiots listen to what is being said here is another matter. I don't want to help clandestines directly or indirectly but at the same time I don't want to see something unnecessarily dangerous out there, which creates a bit of a dilemma.
 
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Thanks for the explanation, looks like this is all less cut and dry than my brain wants it to be.

A couple follow up questions, when you say "This problem is more likely if the reaction is run too concentrated", by too concentrated, do you mean the scale of the reaction? Like this issue is more likely to come up in a large batch reaction versus the equivalent smaller batch

(nvm this second question, i misread the post)
 
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Thanks for the explanation, looks like this is all less cut and dry than my brain wants it to be.

A couple follow up questions, when you say "This problem is more likely if the reaction is run too concentrated", by too concentrated, do you mean the scale of the reaction? Like this issue is more likely to come up in a large batch reaction versus the equivalent smaller batch

Also, if ED is missing Dimer if its under 1%, then would it even be all that significant? For example, in a 100mg dose 1mg or less of dimer would have to be enough to have serious impacts on the effects. You think they'd totally see Dimer if it was say, 30% of the MDMA in a sample? They've never reported Dimer, so either its not there, under 1% (inconsequential?) or they're missing it

concentrated is likely at any scale, it come down to greed, trying to get the maximum amount of stuff in one run out of whatever scale of kit the clandestine has.

I am unconvinced by EDs general competence, but I would hope that even they would see 30% dimer !! Then again 30% dimer is very unlikely because that would need so much less methylamine present in the reaction, which is a major synthetic screw up even for clandestines. I suspect that the dimer is present in their GCMS data and it is eluting late in the run with all the other junk from the column and they just are not looking for it. the mass spectrum would look very very similar to MDMA. Giving the testers the benefit of the doubt and the amounts of dimer are small then does this matter? I think it might.

SRIs are active in the single milligram range and can really inhibit MDMA. Whether MDMA dimer is active in this range in humans who knows. There are plenty of SRIs known with sub nanomolar Ki . The MDA dimer is a reuptake inhibitor according to some of the in vitro work in the papers above. MDMA dimer probably too. The interesting thing here is that the main distinction between Meh and Magic is not complete absence of effects but subtly different effects.
MDMA mostly works on NE not SE but the more subtle MDMA effects are probably due to its interaction with SERT

I think the theory that it is due to a contaminant that is analytically hard to spot is still standing at the moment.

More NMR is needed of definite Meh and definite Magic and careful GCMS too of both meh and magic. if there is something to see then those tools will show it.

Spiked samples sent to ED or the other testing organizations would reveal what they can and can't see. It seems highly unlikely they are going to openly and publically co-operate on this as it would reveal their true capabilities. If anyone from ED or any other testing organization wants to discuss analysis and analytical techniques feel free to PM me, though I won't be holding my breath.

The ultimate proof would be to mix pure MDMA with a known contaminant (the dimer perhaps) and see if it was then reported as meh by those consuming it.

Any Ethics comittee would have a stroke over that experimental protocol but it would answer the question
 
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Yea I was skeptical of this whole thing myself, at times I’ll admit I still am, but just the massive amount of reports (many of which from those that have started much longer after myself) had me believing something must be amiss.

On top of that pretty much everyone I know who started at similar times has zero problem rolling unless they really burnt themselves out, but even those people still get most of the effects. My brother has done insane amounts and still rolls pretty good considering it all. It all lead me to think it has to be down to supply and not tolerance over time.

But do appreciate your change of mindset as well assistance, the dimer theory seems fairly sound. Unfortunate the options to fix the problem, vacuum freebase distillation isn’t in most normal users ability or budget. Re-X could work but as you said I suspect at least 3 but probably more like 5-6 at least to start really cleaning it out.

-GC
 
I honestly don't think finding consumer level solutions is needed. It would be great, yes, and if we isolate what exactly is going on, things are going to change. Whether that's from pressure from testing centers getting their shit together and finding these contaminants and getting loud, or the media having an absolute hissy fit (likely leading to a reduction in supply, and hopefully ending in a resurgence of quality MDMA post-hysteria).

I don't think that's too idealistic, but who knows.
 
I'm wondering if reagent testing has inadvertently helped this situation arise. Back before testing kits became widely available, I guess people just judged pills on how they felt. Now, so much is judged on did they pass the tests. So now the producers are, maybe cynically, optimising the process to pass the reagent tests (and lab tests tbf) at the cheapest cost to manufacture.
 
I'm wondering if reagent testing has inadvertently helped this situation arise. Back before testing kits became widely available, I guess people just judged pills on how they felt. Now, so much is judged on did they pass the tests. So now the producers are, maybe cynically, optimising the process to pass the reagent tests (and lab tests tbf) at the cheapest cost to manufacture.

Good point.
 
concentrated is likely at any scale, it come down to greed, trying to get the maximum amount of stuff in one run out of whatever scale of kit the clandestine has.

I am unconvinced by EDs general competence, but I would hope that even they would see 30% dimer !! Then again 30% dimer is very unlikely because that would need so much less methylamine present in the reaction, which is a major synthetic screw up even for clandestines. I suspect that the dimer is present in their GCMS data and it is eluting late in the run with all the other junk from the column and they just are not looking for it. the mass spectrum would look very very similar to MDMA. Giving the testers the benefit of the doubt and the amounts of dimer are small then does this matter? I think it might.

SRIs are active in the single milligram range and can really inhibit MDMA. Whether MDMA dimer is active in this range in humans who knows. There are plenty of SRIs known with sub nanomolar Ki . The MDA dimer is a reuptake inhibitor according to some of the in vitro work in the papers above. MDMA dimer probably too. The interesting thing here is that the main distinction between Meh and Magic is not complete absence of effects but subtly different effects.
MDMA mostly works on NE not SE but the more subtle MDMA effects are probably due to its interaction with SERT

I think the theory that it is due to a contaminant that is analytically hard to spot is still standing at the moment.

More NMR is needed of definite Meh and definite Magic and careful GCMS too of both meh and magic. if there is something to see then those tools will show it.

Spiked samples sent to ED or the other testing organizations would reveal what they can and can't see. It seems highly unlikely they are going to openly and publically co-operate on this as it would reveal their true capabilities. If anyone from ED or any other testing organization wants to discuss analysis and analytical techniques feel free to PM me, though I won't be holding my breath.

The ultimate proof would be to mix pure MDMA with a known contaminant (the dimer perhaps) and see if it was then reported as meh by those consuming it.

Any Ethics comittee would have a stroke over that experimental protocol but it would answer the question

We got 2 batch of meh coming in. I have a batch of magic, and we have someone else willing to come foward with meh and magic (however I do not want to overwhelm the NMR tester)
 
What does careful recrystallisation involve?

super saturation of MDMA in hot alcohol all the crystals to form slowly.


Typically, the mixture of "compound A" and "impurity B" is dissolved in the smallest amount of hot solvent to fully dissolve the mixture, thus making a saturated solution. The solution is then allowed to cool. As the solution cools the solubility of compounds in solution drops. This results in the desired compound dropping (recrystallizing) from solution. The slower the rate of cooling, the bigger the crystals form.
 
for certain? vacuum distillation of the freebase.
also pretty certain? tosylation of the mixture, MDMA which is a secondary amine will react and the sulfonamide will drop out as solid, the tertiary amine will not react. Hinsbergs method. the MDMA will be ruined but you will have successfully isolated the dimer.
mostly certain? careful recrystalization of the hydrochloride from alcohol, probably several times to be sure.

neither is commonly done by clandestines AFAIK

I was initially skeptical of this Meh Magic thing, but the super dosed pills and numerous reports kind of point to something wrong. The super high dosed pills are just plain dangerous, because no doubt the toxic side effects of MDMA are just as significant with Meh and Magic so super high dosing to try and get decent effects is just increasing the toxic side effects. The trouble is whilst MDMA remains illegal is the quality and dosing is going to be all over the place and people are going to keep getting hurt unnecessarily. MDMA will also get an undeserved bad reputation.

I think that there is a possibility that the mystery could be solved, whether the clandestine idiots listen to what is being said here is another matter. I don't want to help clandestines directly or indirectly but at the same time I don't want to see something unnecessarily dangerous out there, which creates a bit of a dilemma.
Well once we figure it out here, i can def spread the word on the hive, hyperlab, and alike if they decide to listen that is a whole different matter
 
Friend of mine who was abroad for a couple months just got back, he's always kept a small sample of any MDMA he's ever tried, its 14 small samples of 14 different batches, including the Magic stuff I had in summer 2018 that turned me onto this whole rabbit hole.. I haven't personally tried all 14 of these, but I believe he has and has at least memory-notes on what he and friends thought of it.

EDIT: UPDATE, he does have the MehDMA from 2018. So Ideally we'll try to get those 2 samples in, and the other 12 samples will be extra credit if the NMR guy gets bored, literally every color of the rainbow including the black wet stuff that came up as 50% precursor on the NMR-lite
 
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Friend of mine who was abroad for a couple months just got back, he's always kept a small sample of any MDMA he's ever tried, its 14 small samples of 14 different batches, including the Magic stuff I had in summer 2018 that turned me onto this whole rabbit hole.. I haven't personally tried all 14 of these, but I believe he has and has at least memory-notes on what he and friends thought of it.

EDIT: UPDATE, he does have the MehDMA from 2018. So Ideally we'll try to get those 2 samples in, and the other 12 samples will be extra credit if the NMR guy gets bored, literally every color of the rainbow including the black wet stuff that came up as 50% precursor on the NMR-lite

He should write down what he remembers for each one sooner than later. It also could be a good idea to save the samples until more is known? I'm not sure how much, but it could be significant to have a well detailed set of samples collected over a period of years showing (possibly multiple) MehDMA defects.
 
For the most important samples, the IMO good comparison of the two ends of the spectrum, I think we have enough to test and also hold onto

He sent me a photo of all the samples, they're all labelled for when they're from and nicknames given to them all, made me chuckle some stuff is labelled "grey moonrock" or "purple sand", but then 2018 magic stuff is just labelled " OG MDMA"
 
the guys I deal with almost always have mdma that is in the low 90%s for purity with the major impurity being over-reduced mdp2p, and as vecktor says that can be removed easily by recrystallization if you feel the need to

set, setting, and expectation play a huge role in any drug experience. I have had instances where someone *insisted* that two batches of a dissociative must be different... nope, to my skilled eyes they were identical salts, identical mass on GC, identical solubility and mp...

MDMA is MDMA no matter how it's formed. It all goes via MDP2P, you can be lazy and go from the glycidate (really just a protecting group for the ketone) or start from safrole/isosafrole, doesn't make a difference. As for the choice of amination method... doesn't seem to matter. If the chemist actually bothers to distill the freebase from the reduction then it should be pretty pure no matter what.

These are not experimental processes that can go wild off into the weeds either. Reductive amination is a done deal in the chemistry literature.

As for regioisomers, show me how you can go from MDP2P to methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine or 4-ethoxymethamphetamine or w/e.
 
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the guys I deal with almost always have mdma that is in the low 90%s for purity with the major impurity being over-reduced mdp2p, and as vecktor says that can be removed easily by recrystallization if you feel the need to
What analysis methods did you use to determine that? Got any of the data that we could look at?

MDMA is MDMA no matter how it's formed. It all goes via MDP2P, you can be lazy and go from the glycidate (really just a protecting group for the ketone) or start from safrole/isosafrole, doesn't make a difference. As for the choice of amination method... doesn't seem to matter. If the chemist actually bothers to distill the freebase from the reduction then it should be pretty pure no matter what.

These are not experimental processes that can go wild off into the weeds either. Reductive amination is a done deal in the chemistry literature.

This review gives plenty of examples of contaminants from different processes. Yes, if the freebase was distilled properly I guess it would be fine but are any of them doing that nowadays? Judging by the crap we're getting in the UK it doesn't seem the european producers are.
 
super saturation of MDMA in hot alcohol all the crystals to form slowly.

Typically, the mixture of "compound A" and "impurity B" is dissolved in the smallest amount of hot solvent to fully dissolve the mixture, thus making a saturated solution. The solution is then allowed to cool. As the solution cools the solubility of compounds in solution drops. This results in the desired compound dropping (recrystallizing) from solution. The slower the rate of cooling, the bigger the crystals form.

Sorry to be dumb but got a couple of questions. Do the impurities we are talking about (mdp2p, mdma dimer, etc...) not crystallise? If they do, is it separate crystals and if yes, how do you separate?
 
Sorry to be dumb but got a couple of questions. Do the impurities we are talking about (mdp2p, mdma dimer, etc...) not crystallise? If they do, is it separate crystals and if yes, how do you separate?
a lot of people don't really understand recrystalization and why it works. The theory of recrystalization is fairly simple but there is a lot of nuance to it in practice but I'm going to simplify horribly to explain.

if you hypothetically had a mixture of 2 similar compounds one 80% and the other 20% and you dissolve them in the minimum amount of hot solvent, then one assumes that the 80% material is saturated (no more can dissolve in that solvent at that temperature), the 20% material is only 20% saturated.

The hot solution is then filtered, keeping it hot. removing all insolubles.

When you cool the filtered solution, now called the mother liquor, the 80% material will start to crystallize out pretty much immediately, the 20% material will not crystallize until it becomes saturated, (it becomes saturated as the solution cools and the solution will have to cool more before it starts to crystalize). so if the solution is cooled and stood then only a small amount of the 20% material will have crystallized out, dropped out when the mixture became saturated for the 20% material but a lot more of the 80% material will have crystallized out because that was saturated at the start. the 20% material will mostly still be in the liquid, the mother liquor. Some of the 80% material will also be in the mother liquor but most will have crystallized.
the crystals are filtered free from the mother liquor and washed with cold solvent, this removes contaminants stuck on the surface of the crystals. The resulting crystals will contain less 20% material because a lot of the 20% material is still in the mother liquor. so the crystals will be purer.

If you repeat the process enough times then there is even less 20% material at the start, so it probably will not ever crystallize, it will not ever reach saturation. so the material crystalising is practically pure. The old school metric was to recrystalize until the melting point of the crystals didn't increase, that is then pure.

A lot of people make elementary mistakes with recrystallize, for example they don't filter and wash the crystals, or worse they allow the whole mixture to evaporate, which is totally pointless because all the contaminants are still there.

recrystalization and also fractional crystalization are techniques, which in skilled hands are extremely powerful and effective. It is not without problems. for example a relatively insoluble contaminant can continue through the process and crash out early in the cooling process. Things can co-crystalize. Things can have non linear solubility curves or reversed solubility curves (more soluble in cold than hot). Things can also react with the solvent and so on...

Recrystalization is a skilled art and one that has been lost to an extent because of the prevalence of column chromatography in industry and academia. There are entire companies that exist just to do work on crystalization for the pharmaceutical industry, it is an exceptionally critical part of the process and one that if it goes wrong is an expensive nightmare to fix.

Interestingly the size of crystals has no effect on the purity, quite often smaller crystals are purer as the don't occlude mother liquor in the crystal (mother liquor stuck in defects in the crystal) smaller crystals also filter better.

Anyone with a pharma background will never say something is the same on the basis of one or two tests,

it has to match or pass on every test or it is not the same,
the basics are:
Trace analytical chromatography LC or GC often hyphenated techniques LC-MS GC-MS
Quantitative chromatography-usually HPLC
IR spectrum should be identical.
NMR if it is done, should also match.
If it is a new compound then HRMS is extremely useful to positively identify the compound.
The quantitative assay should also match. (eliminates errors due to water of crystalisation and solvates also detects invisible cutting compounds-not going to publish anything about that but they do exist and certain CMOs have been caught in the past)
The appearance should be the same, color hardness etc.
The salt morph and form should also be identical.

everybody knows how to cheat, the game is to try and spot cheating.

to get an idea for a pharma spec look up the USP monograph for any drug, and USP is quite old fashioned and limited in what is specified compared to the manufacturers control file.
 
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the guys I deal with almost always have mdma that is in the low 90%s for purity with the major impurity being over-reduced mdp2p, and as vecktor says that can be removed easily by recrystallization if you feel the need to

set, setting, and expectation play a huge role in any drug experience. I have had instances where someone *insisted* that two batches of a dissociative must be different... nope, to my skilled eyes they were identical salts, identical mass on GC, identical solubility and mp...

MDMA is MDMA no matter how it's formed. It all goes via MDP2P, you can be lazy and go from the glycidate (really just a protecting group for the ketone) or start from safrole/isosafrole, doesn't make a difference. As for the choice of amination method... doesn't seem to matter. If the chemist actually bothers to distill the freebase from the reduction then it should be pretty pure no matter what.

These are not experimental processes that can go wild off into the weeds either. Reductive amination is a done deal in the chemistry literature.

As for regioisomers, show me how you can go from MDP2P to methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine or 4-ethoxymethamphetamine or w/e.

It's funny you mention methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine. because

MDP2P to methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine ( is in one of the impurities literature posted recently not sure which on) stated MDP2P, reductive animation and a methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine impurity. ( i could be wrong but i'm pretty sure i read that skimming everything) but the MD equivalent of N-iso totally caught my eye at one point i'll go retake a look
 
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the guys I deal with almost always have mdma that is in the low 90%s for purity with the major impurity being over-reduced mdp2p, and as vecktor says that can be removed easily by recrystallization if you feel the need to

set, setting, and expectation play a huge role in any drug experience. I have had instances where someone *insisted* that two batches of a dissociative must be different... nope, to my skilled eyes they were identical salts, identical mass on GC, identical solubility and mp...

MDMA is MDMA no matter how it's formed. It all goes via MDP2P, you can be lazy and go from the glycidate (really just a protecting group for the ketone) or start from safrole/isosafrole, doesn't make a difference. As for the choice of amination method... doesn't seem to matter. If the chemist actually bothers to distill the freebase from the reduction then it should be pretty pure no matter what.

These are not experimental processes that can go wild off into the weeds either. Reductive amination is a done deal in the chemistry literature.

As for regioisomers, show me how you can go from MDP2P to methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine or 4-ethoxymethamphetamine or w/e.

Also MDMA is being made and encountered from helional. Either making MDA and turning that into MDMA. At least I assume. I see alot of MDMA from ED with MDA 2-aldoxime analog impurities which hint toward helional. AT least this is what cayman says so.... MDA 2-aldoxime analog is an intermediate produced in the synthesis of MDA from helional (also known as ocean propanal, aquanal, or tropional).1 The physiological and toxicological properties of this compound are not known. This product is intended for forensic and research applications.


Here is some MDMA batches with traces of MDA 2-aldoxime


OR via
The DARK Side of Total Synthesis: Strategies and Tactics in Psychoactive Drug Production

The Shulze lab recently published an MDMA synthesis that features a Curtius rearrangement (Scheme 27).89Treatment of helional (157) with sodium propionate and propionic anhydride resulted in a Perkin reaction to give unsaturated carboxylic acid 158. Olefin hydrogenation followed by acyl chloride synthesis gave (±)-159. At this point, generation of the acyl azide and subsequent Curtius rearrangement provided an isocyanate. Exposure of this intermediate to t-BuOK gave the corresponding Boc carbamate. N-Methylation followed by acid mediated Boc deprotection provided (±)-MDMA (129) which was isolated as its oxalate salt.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time with the semi recent crackdown of glyciate we either see an uptick in Helional batches, or , alpha-methyl-3,4-methylenedioxycinnamic acid (Scheme 9, Fig. 4) and its ring substituted derivatives are not commercially regulated. (This is by the DEA agent who made glycidate and many routes in 1990...) methyl-3,4-methylenedioxycinnamic acid wasn't commercially available, now it is.

With glyicate starting to be regulated, I can def see new methods popping up or going back to safrole.

While synethsis discusiion is not allow on bluelight, I feel that there maybe be only 11-4 people that may get this, but certainly not enough to go start doing, they still gotta do a lot of research to pull these methods off.
 
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