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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

I can't handle stupid people anymore

Oh wow, we can definitely see all the darkness going on. It's going to get darker and darker. That's what is to be expected before the end.
You're absolutely right, I need to find likeminded people. I need to find a church I like and join that community. ❤
There is a sanctuary right here sweetie. I’ve dabbled in the pitch black darkness of the Devil’s lair and basked in the radiant light of God. I even went to school for Philosophy to really uncover the truth and you know what? I always ended up in the open palms of his forgiveness. Most religions point to a similar description, even Plato knew the God we speak of. Nothing to be ashamed of no matter what trivial argumentative inquiries are thrown in our faces. Atheism is a cold, bleak unimaginative belief. I would rather be whipped naked than subject myself to that dark nothingness again.
 
I'm the only one here telling you truth. Your soul is in trouble. If you die while worshipping a demon, you'll be sorry.

As @TripSitterNZ posted............."The infinite is infinite god is all form and reality and has not a single care for anything because its the ultimate infinite reality of endless suffering there is no escape from consciousness god on end of the spetrucum is ultimate infinite darkness and evil and then light and love on the other end." and you have NO idea about any side of it.
 
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Atheism is not a belief. Please educate yourself.

Eh it kinda is. You could make a solid argument that agnosticism, not believing one way or the other, isnt a belief. But if you outright believe God definitely doesn't exist, that's a belief.

And generally that's what I assume atheism to mean, not just a lack of a belief one way or the other, but an outright belief that there is no God.

I wouldn't call it a lack of a belief, because no evidence of God's existence is exactly that, no evidence. The conclusion is that there's no room to make a conclusion, not to conclude God outright doesn't exist.
 
I think Sam Harris explained the issue with the word "atheism" best - we don't for example, have a word that says "NOT a believer in Zeus", or "NOT a worshipper of Horus and the pantheon of ancient Egypt"... these things, generally, are just assumed to be the default, and we can imagine a more enlightened future for humanity where we don't need words like atheism., or at least, the word has a lot less weight than it has today.

All that said, I think it probably is a belief, I had to just double-check the definition of belief because this made me think but essentially anything that we think about reality can be considered to be a belief.

I believe that Santa and the Tooth Fairy probably do not exist. I am an asantaist, and an atoothfairyist.

On that note, I would say that gods in the generally accepted definition are far removed enough from everyday reality that saying one categorically does not believe they exist - or rather, believes they do not exist - is equivalent to saying one does not believe in parallel universes or other dimensions, none of us really know but we would be able to go to the North pole or set up hidden cameras or something to verify the existence of those other 2 likely fictional characters.

Maybe atheism still makes sense to say as a refutation of the more rigidly defined anthropomorphic deities of organised religion which are basically analogous to Zeus and the other deities of ancient paganism, as opposed to a more holistic, or just more vague definition... maybe I'm getting bogged down in semantics.

Thinking about it I guess that "not believing something exists" is not entirely equivalent to "believing something does not exist", which presumably is the distinction you're getting at, @mal3volent.
 
@Vastness that's exactly the distinction I was getting at. Not believing one way or the other isn't a belief, but believing God definitely doesn't exist is.

To use the Santa example. I consider myself agnostic. I don't believe God definitely exists and neither do I believe god definitely doesn't exist.

So I don't hold a belief. Which is why I would say agnosticism isn't a belief.

I do however believe santa does not exist. Which I would say is a belief.

It's all semantics and arguing over the definition of words though, a kind of argument I hate getting entangled in because there's no authoritive source of truth in the meaning of words. So I think I'll leave my argument there.
 
Thinking about it I guess that "not believing something exists" is not entirely equivalent to "believing something does not exist", which presumably is the distinction you're getting at, @mal3volent.

Yep, that's it exactly. It's common for theists to say well "I believe god exists and you believe he doesn't, whose to say who is right?" "No. You believe God exists, I do not believe God exists."

I believe a God exists. = Belief
I believe a God does not exist. = Belief
I do not believe a God exists. = NOT a belief (a-theism ... WITHOUT the belief in a God or gods)

You can tell which is which because the beliefs start with "I believe" and the non belief starts with "I do not believe".

Atheists have nothing to prove. We are not making a claim. The onus is on the creationists.
 
You could make a solid argument that agnosticism, not believing one way or the other, isnt a belief. But if you outright believe God definitely doesn't exist, that's a belief.

agnosticism is a question of knowledge. Is it possible for us to know if God exists or not? An agnostic is someone who believes it's not possible to KNOW. However there are many agnostics who are also theists and many agnostics who are also atheists.

16380
 
There are intricacies and weights behind a statement such as a belief. What is the framework of the construction, the nature and consequences of the belief. Valid historical evidence and the burden of proof to meet a condition are criteria important in evaluating any belief.

E.g. there may be atheists who would say I believe no god exists or could exist (I believe there is no god), vs. I don't believe that god exists. One can also use I doubt, I am skeptical, uncertainty.


I believe God exists [and only exists] (in n manner with m conditions) requires a good deal of evidence and defining framework.
I believe that no god exists (or could exist) requires defining the exclusionary criteria at some level given the degree of belief.
I don't believe a God exists may represent skepticism in the framework of a god or the above. Defining the position qualifies the statement.
I am uncertain whether god exists or not, but I believe we can't know....has a position.

I am uncertain whether god exists or not, I don't know whether we can know at this time, and I don't prioritize this question of god at this time is a further extension.

A stretched example:
I. I believe 1+1 = 2
II. I believe 1+1 != 10.
III. I don't believe 1+1 !=10 (unless...)
Varies on the framework and logic. I and II follow in base 10 but not base 2. III leaves room in both.

However, there may be a weight to beliefs, and people living their beliefs, believing. The burden to evaluate a belief can be sociologically relevant, even if logically uncomfortable or seemingly wasteful. A person believing that their neighbor's dog is the omnipotent saviour of mankind can't demand an equal proof from a-doggists and has a high burden of proof, but this calculus may shift as the shared belief extends, whether valid or not, however we function.

Facts don't care about feelings, but equally feelings don't care about facts, and have a biological weight. Our ability to abstract to the critique of pure reason came after our development and reflexes. If humans were perfectly logical and systematic these questions might not be as relevant realistically but biology/sociology hasn't emerged that way. Pure logical dismissals of belief may miss this framework and its realistic weight in our decision making.

An aside. Money doesn't have much intrinsic worth (some properties) but the belief in its validity and use as a substitute / method of transaction begets worth. A functional role. It becomes relevant due to our belief in its use. Is there a similar weight to a belief in god, I can't say. I don't see them as equivalent, but just bringing up the concept.

Tasty semantics and tangents. Had a girlfriend who did theology/philosophy and she chewed me out logically everytime.

I can't say I believe in a particular god nor am I actively looking for some god, nor am I actively denying one could exist or not. I do believe in the harms (and some benefits) that have emerged with many organized religions and systems of beliefs, and have a strong degree of skepticism. I do believe that dialogues between atheists and theists, amongst other human categories, can operate on maladaptive frameworks. Infinity and endless time can be difficult concepts for humans. I do believe in humans believing, to mixed ends.

I also believe that chocolate tastes pretty good and drugs are interesting.
 
A creationist has absolutely no duty or responsibility towards an atheist whatsoever, that's an invitation to an argument where none exists. It might make for some entertaining daytime TV, but that's about it.
 
I didn't read one post in this thread, but a sucker is born every minute. Without stupid people i wouldn't be making any money.

Are they that hard to ignore or manipulate?
 
You have enough time to respond to me like five times, but not enough to tell me why atheism is a belief. Don't worry, I'll wait. :)
 
I'll take a crack at it Malo. I was a history major, zero knowledge of philosophy or debating, so feel free to correct me. I think what you are trying to argue is similar to, or is, a truism. That is, not having a belief is not a belief. Or am I misreading?
 
Something I've always found frustrating... Is that even if I suppose that it's all true. God, Satan, the rebellion, etc.

None of it gives me particular motivation to want to love God. When God seems like a complete asshole. Deliberately putting the tree in the garden to temp Adam and Eve, so he could throw them out when they defied him.

Why put the tree of knowledge there at all? To give humans a choice? Except it's hardly a choice if the options are do as I say, or die.

Then there's the flood.

God's acts like a dick, is it any wonder Satan was not alone in rebelling against him?

How do you really know that you should be on God's side? Seems to me the reason comes down to, "because he said so". Not a very good reason.

God could effortlessly allow us to have a choice, without sadistically hiding himself enough to put doubt in the hearts of reasonable people. But he doesn't. Then after you die, it's too late.

He's a dick..

EDIT: I just wanna clarify something here in case this post comes across the wrong way. I'm not intentionally trying to mock Christians here, nor any individual Christian bluelighters. These are just my honest doubts about Christianity. And frustrations about what it asks people to believe.
 
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As @TripSitterNZ posted............."The infinite is infinite god is all form and reality and has not a single care for anything because its the ultimate infinite reality of endless suffering there is no escape from consciousness god on end of the spetrucum is ultimate infinite darkness and evil and then light and love on the other end." and you have NO idea about any side of it.

God is only love and light. Satan is darkness. In the garden of eden, God told Adam and Eve that everything in the garden is for them to enjoy.
He only warned them do not eat from that one tree. The serpent (devil) came and twisted God's word to fool them and convince them to eat the apple. That's where the whole lie began where people think they are their own God and can do whatever they want. "Do what thou wilst" - Aleister Crowley (Church Of Satan)

Adam's sin cursed the ground and gave the devil the keys to this world. There was no way for humans to go to God directly anymore. Through the Holy Spirit, God sent His son Jesus Christ to pay for all of our sins on the cross. Adam cursed the ground. Jesus redeemed the ground. The devil cannot accuse us of anything anymore. It is paid in full on the cross through the blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus died and went to hell to get the keys to hell. Jesus conquered death. Jesus was resurrected. Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God in Heaven. The devil is called "the accuser of the brethren". He will always try to bring accusations against believers, but believers are justified. Our debt has been paid in full by the blood of Jesus's works on the cross.

When a person chooses salvation and becomes a believer, he is a new creation in Christ. The old has died. Now believers can speak to God directly through Jesus Christ.

You actively choose to go against God by worshipping a demon. You agreed with me when I said we are spiritual beings in a physical body. When we die, our physical body die. That's only one part of you. Your soul is going to hell if you do not repent and give yourself over to Jesus Christ before it's too late.

I am the only one here who is telling you the truth. You can be mad at me, but I love you enough to tell you the truth ZB.
 
Something I've always found frustrating... Is that even if I suppose that it's all true. God, Satan, the rebellion, etc.

None of it gives me particular motivation to want to love God. When God seems like a complete asshole. Deliberately putting the tree in the garden to temp Adam and Eve, so he could throw them out when they defied him.

Why put the tree of knowledge there at all? To give humans a choice? Except it's hardly a choice if the options are do as I say, or die.

Then there's the flood.

God's acts like a dick, is it any wonder Satan was not alone in rebelling against him?

How do you really know that you should be on God's side? Seems to me the reason comes down to, "because he said so". Not a very good reason.

God could effortlessly allow us to have a choice, without sadistically hiding himself enough to put doubt in the hearts of reasonable people. But he doesn't. Then after you die, it's too late.

He's a dick..

EDIT: I just wanna clarify something here in case this post comes across the wrong way. I'm not intentionally trying to mock Christians here, nor any individual Christian bluelighters. These are just my honest doubts about Christianity. And frustrations about what it asks people to believe.

Free will. Adam and Eve had more than they could have ever wanted. So what they were told not to touch that tree? They had everything they wanted and needed.

God sent his only son to die for us on the cross. Now we have salvation so that we will not burn eternally in hell. Free will.

I'm just annoyed at people's logic. That is why I longer care to discuss this. It's ridiculous. People will believe what they want.
 
Free will. Adam and Eve had more than they could have ever wanted. So what they were told not to touch that tree? They had everything they wanted and needed.

God sent his only son to die for us on the cross. Now we have salvation so that we will not burn eternally in hell. Free will.

I'm just annoyed at people's logic. That is why I longer care to discuss this. It's ridiculous. People will believe what they want.

Why should burning in hell even be a possibility unless God's a total asshole?

Sure seems like God only wants us to have free will so he can act out his wrath on people for using it.

The Bible, and especially the old testiment, is full of examples of God acting like a total asshole.

A choice made under duress is not a free choice. Therefore, burning in hell for lack of belief makes belief a choice made under duress. How is that giving us free will?

God is basically like an abusive parent. Telling us it's our fault that he hurts us.
 
Bhuddism and Christianity approach human suffering in different ways. In Bhuddism whether God is a dick is not an issue because there is no God. But there is human suffering and it is a constant of human existence unless we transcend existence itself. In contrast one could say God is a dick in Christianity because there is a God and there is suffering. Why would God create a world and allow human suffering? That question evades the issue though because we are human and by our very nature we do suffer. Christianity has concepts about the meaning of suffering in this world and the transcending suffering in the world to come.
 
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