Harm Reduction What's a safe amount of peppermint oil? (question related to opioids)

[Akane]

I have purchased a cough syrup that's OTC here in the UK that contains Peppermint oil 1.5mcl and anhydrous Morphine 1mg in each 5ml dose.

I basically would have to ingest the whole 100ml bottle to get a decent amount of morphine for pain relief purposes.

I know peppermint oil is toxic in certain amounts but couldn't figure out easily by myself what the threshold is. I found some study related to rats but I am not too sure about it. It says oral LD50 value in rat is 2426 mg/kg.

I reckon I should be fine with drinking the whole bottle or half of it but I am just looking for confirmation that I would not be ingesting a toxic amount of peppermint oil. Thanks in advance.

 

[negrogesic]

Its so bizarre (to an American) that morphine (in any formulation) is available over the counter.

Peppermint oil is mostly menthol by weight, but contains other more poisonous monoterpenes (the name of which escapes me). The menthol is a deterrent of course, but its interesting because as a GABAergic (at high dose) the inclusion of menthol could contribute to a fatal overdose since large amounts of menthol alone can cause serious respiratory depression.

My guess is that you have a tolerance a bottle won't kill you (or nearly kill you) but it will be quite unpleasant and you will be oozing mint out of every orfice and pore for some time (which is kind of rough for a measly 20mg of morphine).

Perhaps you could try freezing it and hope you could separate the oil perhaps (the oil shouldnt freeze as easily). Not so sure about this however since menthol (in its pure state) freezes at room temperature.

 

[Akane]

Its so bizarre (to an American) that morphine (in any formulation) is available over the counter.

Peppermint oil is mostly menthol by weight, but contains other more poisonous monoterpenes (the name of which escapes me). The menthol is a deterrent of course, but its interesting because as a GABAergic (at high dose) the inclusion of menthol could contribute to a fatal overdose since large amounts of menthol alone can cause serious respiratory depression.

My guess is that you have a tolerance a bottle won't kill you (or nearly kill you) but it will be quite unpleasant and you will be oozing mint out of every orfice and pore for some time (which is kind of rough for a measly 20mg of morphine).

Perhaps you could try freezing it and hope you could separate the oil perhaps (the oil shouldnt freeze as easily). Not so sure about this however since menthol (in its pure state) freezes at room temperature.

Thanks for the reply.

Even just 1.5 microliters per 5ml? I thought that wasn't that much. I have read now of people chugging 2 bottles of it without issues even here on Bluelight since I was looking for more info. The product is called J Collis Browne.

I use DHC daily. 180mg max at a time if I wanna get nice and sleepy. Usually 90mg to control back pain. I am not worried about the morphine content as I've taken that morphine dosage before with not much difference from DHC. I know it's not much but since I am running out of DHC I might need to use the cough mixture to tide me over at some point in the next few days.

What I read that concerned me a little is that apparently peppermint oil is not to be taken if you take antacid medications. I am on omeprazole for my GERD but to order that medication the pharmacy did ask if I was taking anything and I mentioned the omeprazole and they approved the sale so I guess it will be ok.

 

[Neopunk]

One could remove the rather hydrophobic menthol by washing the solution with ether, chloroform or DCM, in which it is very soluble. Morphine hydrochloride (used in this solution) is insoluble in either of them, so there's no loss if handled right. The solution also contains a little bit of ethanol. this has to be boiled off beforehand, because it would carry some Morphine into the organic phase and also increases the solubility of menthol in water.
There's still a problem left: high amounts of sorbitol and other sugar alcohols which cause stomach ache and nausea, both also caused by morphine. Separating them from Morphine would require to freebase the Morphine and filter it off or extract it. But this isn't really worth it in such small amounts imo. Especially if there's some oil left in the solution it will negatively impact the precipitation of Morphine.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

I have purchased a cough syrup that's OTC here in the UK that contains Peppermint oil 1.5mcl and anhydrous Morphine 1mg in each 5ml dose.

I basically would have to ingest the whole 100ml bottle to get a decent amount of morphine for pain relief purposes.

I know peppermint oil is toxic in certain amounts but couldn't figure out easily by myself what the threshold is. I found some study related to rats but I am not too sure about it. It says oral LD50 value in rat is 2426 mg/kg.

I reckon I should be fine with drinking the whole bottle or half of it but I am just looking for confirmation that I would not be ingesting a toxic amount of peppermint oil. Thanks in advance.

Nothing containing morphine is OTC here in the UK. What you got either doesn't contain morphine or is NOT OTC. Cough syrup would never contain morphine anyway.

 

[negrogesic]

Thanks for the reply.

Even just 1.5 microliters per 5ml? I thought that wasn't that much. I have read now of people chugging 2 bottles of it without issues even here on Bluelight since I was looking for more info. The product is called J Collis Browne.

I use DHC daily. 180mg max at a time if I wanna get nice and sleepy. Usually 90mg to control back pain. I am not worried about the morphine content as I've taken that morphine dosage before with not much difference from DHC. I know it's not much but since I am running out of DHC I might need to use the cough mixture to tide me over at some point in the next few days.

What I read that concerned me a little is that apparently peppermint oil is not to be taken if you take antacid medications. I am on omeprazole for my GERD but to order that medication the pharmacy did ask if I was taking anything and I mentioned the omeprazole and they approved the sale so I guess it will be ok.

My mistake i didnt read that carefully and failed to think that if those figures were actually in millilitres the amount of peppermint would make it unbearable at even 5ml.

30 microliters is a handful of drops and should easily bearable and of negligible toxicity. I didn't know it was formulated with sorbitol, which in this case, is the larger irritant.

 

[negrogesic]

Nothing containing morphine is OTC here in the UK. What you got either doesn't contain morphine or is NOT OTC. Cough syrup would never contain morphine anyway.

J. Collis Brown Mixture does appear to be available in the UK at the pharmacists discretion, I remember reading about it some time ago. And, morphine makes just as much sense as codeine as far as a cough suppressant.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

J. Collis Brown Mixture does appear to be available in the UK at the pharmacists discretion, I remember reading about it some time ago. And, morphine makes just as much sense as codeine as far as a cough suppressant.

I was also told codeine linctus was sold OTC "At the pharmacists discretion" but I went to many, many pharmacies and every single one said that wasn't the case, it was Prescription Only.

 

[Akane]

I was also told codeine linctus was sold OTC "At the pharmacists discretion" but I went to many, many pharmacies and every single one said that wasn't the case, it was Prescription Only.

I bought Codeine Linctus many times online, sold at the pharmacy's discretion, and it doesn't legally require a prescription. I have even checked the whole legislation. Codeine is legally obtainable without a prescription in that formulation (15mg per 5ml). I have a bottle coming this morning actually. Bought from a famous online pharmacy only.

I know now many pharmacies require a prescription, but that's because that's what they have decided. It is not a legal requirement. It is at their discretion to sell it to a customer and they can decide they want to avoid selling to misusers and sell it just with a prescription.

You can most certainly buy morphine without a prescription either in the J Collis Browne formulation or in the Kaolin and Morphine syrup. Most pharmacies will lie and say you need a prescription. It's not legally required. It's just the pharmacy's decision. I know what pharmacies online sell it and I get it there. I know what I buy and I have most certainly purchased J Collis Browne, which contains morphine and peppermint oil for diarrhoea and coughs. I only had to answer a brief questionnaire. No prescription required.

You're not well-informed if you replied that you can't get morphine products without a prescription here in the UK. Gee's Linctus used to be sold without a prescription as well. That contains opium tincture. Can't get it anymore it seems. It's never in stock anywhere (online at least as I don't buy this stuff from physical pharmacies).

J Collis Browne can be bought from a few online pharmacies. Kaolin and Morphine too but now I can't find it anywhere without the pharmacy wanting a prescription. I am sure some pharmacy sooner or later will have it available again without a prescription required. A year ago you couldn't find the J Collis Browne anywhere without a prescription required and now you can again.

Also, look up the name on here or online (J Collis Browne) and you'll see I am not talking rubbish.

Your mistake was to not try it and buy it online... much easier to get it like that and I am talking about reputable UK pharmacies... nothing dodgy or from abroad.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

J Collis Brown mixture used to be known as Chlorodyne if I am not mistaken and confusing it with Gee's Linctus, the main active ingredients being opium and chloroform, so in that case it would have morphine in it in the same sense as with anti-diarrhoeals available as Schedule V Exempt Narcotics in some of the United States all the way up till January 1993, and this was because of the atropine content of the formulations still available. Also in the same respect that one can get morphine at a regular grocery store on account of poppy seeds. I have never had any trouble getting paregoric or DTO (laudanum) here on the Continent but that could be because the chemists know who I am from decades of being a customer and 98 per cent of my business with them having to do with narcotics . . .

The very existence of exempt narcotics under the CSA 1970 in the States is a concession to the tradition of self-medication with dilute opiate preparations and the situation in most countries is to one extent or another more like the pre-1970 situation there; the all-encompassing closed system including manufacturing quotas and intensified record-keeping not being all that common elsewhere, as the laws stemming from the treaty obligations of the 1931 Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs being quite enough and some countries going further than that in the other direction.

 

[Akane]

J Collis Browne's Mixture - Summary of Product Characteristics (SmPC) - (emc)

J Collis Browne's Mixture - Summary of Product Characteristics (SmPC) by Thornton & Ross Ltd

www.medicines.org.uk

Legal category: pharmacy med

Like I said it doesn’t require a prescription. The morphine in it is so little anyway. It's an old diarrhea med.

 

[Akane]

J Collis Brown mixture used to be known as Chlorodyne if I am not mistaken and confusing it with Gee's Linctus, the main active ingredients being opium and chloroform, so in that case it would have morphine in it in the same sense as with anti-diarrhoeals available as Schedule V Exempt Narcotics in some of the United States all the way up till January 1993, and this was because of the atropine content of the formulations still available. Also in the same respect that one can get morphine at a regular grocery store on account of poppy seeds. I have never had any trouble getting paregoric or DTO (laudanum) here on the Continent but that could be because the chemists know who I am from decades of being a customer and 98 per cent of my business with them having to do with narcotics . . .

Yep, it used to have cannabis in it too. Now it's morphed into this formulation containing morphine in a tiny quantity and peppermint oil.
I prefer the kaolin variety as the clay just gets deposited at the bottom so you can avoid ingesting all that. Still have two bottles with just the kaolin part left in them. Bought obtained legally and without any prescription within the last year.

 

[Akane]

Codeine Linctus as well is a pharmacy med. Not a POM (prescription only) one @ChemicallyEnhanced

Codeine Linctus BP - Summary of Product Characteristics (SmPC) - (emc) | 4825

Codeine Linctus BP - Summary of Product Characteristics (SmPC) by Thornton & Ross Ltd

www.medicines.org.uk

See where it says legal category. I know what I was talking about when I mentioned to you the codeine linctus in a thread of yours. I only post when I know what I am talking about otherwise I refrain . I don’t want to tell anyone rubbish.

 

[negrogesic]

In Australia i used to buy linctus and codeine pills at the pharmacies in southern australia

I remember one particular unfortunately compounded codeine product. Prior to a flight from Adelaide, Australia to Los Angeles, i bought a bunch of codeine tablets from an airport store that contained codeine, caffeine and acetaminophen. I had run out of methadone and my tolerance was sky high so i needed a number of boxes for one dose. I did a cold water extraction on the flight but caffeine is moderately soluble in even cold water, so i got a lot of caffeine. Imagine how X number of hundreds of milligrams of caffeine going through your system feels while being stuck on one the words longest flights (Adelaide to Los Angeles) while in high dose methadone withdrawal, with a shitty codeine buzz barely making a dent in it. To make matters worse, I was causing quite a commotion with my neighbors, asking the flight attend "can I get some more coffee filters" for the bright yellow solution I was filtering for an hour and half. This was after 9/11 so im suprised no one said anything to me. Later i crept to the back of the giant half empty Quantas plane and found a medical oxygen tank under the middle back seat of the central back row which i nursed under a blanket till i drained it.

 

[Akane]

I can't imagine being stuck in a plane seat for that long whilst going through withdrawal and methadone withdrawal as well!

That reminded me of something that occurred a few weeks ago. Went into the toilet at the supermarket and saw a box of Nurofen Plus left near the bin. Someone had completely emptied the blisters... Guess it was someone eager to get a buzz or withdrawing lol. I thought about the enormous quantity of ibuprofen they ingested

It was the women's bathroom as well, which means the culprit was a she.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Peppermint oil, along with spearmint and wintergreen, were the original salicylates in addition to willow bark, and above a certain amount there is the possibility of thinning out ones blood to the point that bleeding stomach ulcers are a possibility -- I even had to stop using topical oil of wintergreen for that and other reasons

 

[Akane]

One could remove the rather hydrophobic menthol by washing the solution with ether, chloroform or DCM, in which it is very soluble. Morphine hydrochloride (used in this solution) is insoluble in either of them, so there's no loss if handled right. The solution also contains a little bit of ethanol. this has to be boiled off beforehand, because it would carry some Morphine into the organic phase and also increases the solubility of menthol in water.
There's still a problem left: high amounts of sorbitol and other sugar alcohols which cause stomach ache and nausea, both also caused by morphine. Separating them from Morphine would require to freebase the Morphine and filter it off or extract it. But this isn't really worth it in such small amounts imo. Especially if there's some oil left in the solution it will negatively impact the precipitation of Morphine.

I wouldn't really go and attempt extractions for 20mg of morphine... like you said, it's not worth it.
I think chloroform is carcinogenic and I wouldn't trust myself handling it at all, even if I know it wouldn't be in the final product if I did things right. I don't know anything about solvents etc. so any stuff like this is not for me I'm afraid. I wouldn't even know how to get ether or chloroform and so on.

I appreciate your post as it is quite interesting, anyway, if one wanted to try that.
The sorbitol doesn't do anything bad to me.
I have drunk the codeine linctus, another disgusting cough syrup full of sorbitol, many times and it never gave me problems.

I am only bothered about the peppermint oil but I think we have sort of established the amount in this cough mixture isn't high enough to cause issues.

I saw threads on here where people did 2 100ml bottles of that and were ok. I think I will handle one just fine. I don't really wanna drink more than just the one I have. Not gonna be greedy.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

I bought Codeine Linctus many times online, sold at the pharmacy's discretion, and it doesn't legally require a prescription. I have even checked the whole legislation. Codeine is legally obtainable without a prescription in that formulation (15mg per 5ml). I have a bottle coming this morning actually. Bought from a famous online pharmacy only.

I know now many pharmacies require a prescription, but that's because that's what they have decided. It is not a legal requirement. It is at their discretion to sell it to a customer and they can decide they want to avoid selling to misusers and sell it just with a prescription.

You can most certainly buy morphine without a prescription either in the J Collis Browne formulation or in the Kaolin and Morphine syrup. Most pharmacies will lie and say you need a prescription. It's not legally required. It's just the pharmacy's decision. I know what pharmacies online sell it and I get it there. I know what I buy and I have most certainly purchased J Collis Browne, which contains morphine and peppermint oil for diarrhoea and coughs. I only had to answer a brief questionnaire. No prescription required.

You're not well-informed if you replied that you can't get morphine products without a prescription here in the UK. Gee's Linctus used to be sold without a prescription as well. That contains opium tincture. Can't get it anymore it seems. It's never in stock anywhere (online at least as I don't buy this stuff from physical pharmacies).

J Collis Browne can be bought from a few online pharmacies. Kaolin and Morphine too but now I can't find it anywhere without the pharmacy wanting a prescription. I am sure some pharmacy sooner or later will have it available again without a prescription required. A year ago you couldn't find the J Collis Browne anywhere without a prescription required and now you can again.

Also, look up the name on here or online (J Collis Browne) and you'll see I am not talking rubbish.

Your mistake was to not try it and buy it online... much easier to get it like that and I am talking about reputable UK pharmacies... nothing dodgy or from abroad.

Online pharmacies are very different. I find you can get stuff a lot easier there. I've bought Codeine, Dihydrocodeine, Zopiclone and Diazepam from legit online pharmacies before.

 

[Neopunk]

But with a prescription for the Zopiclone and Diazepam, right? oO

 

[Akane]

Online pharmacies are very different. I find you can get stuff a lot easier there. I've bought Codeine, Dihydrocodeine, Zopiclone and Diazepam from legit online pharmacies before.

Yes. They sell you the prescription and the drug. I wasn't talking about them. I get my dhc with a prescription sold after a consultation online for example.

I have never seen diazepam sold online legally in the UK. Not even tramadol can be sold online legally. They are more controlled substances and they wouldn't prescribe them with an online consultation. It's interesting that you got it from a legit pharmacy . Lucky you.
Unless you supplied your own prescription from a GP or private doctor then it's perfectly legal.

It was only codeine or dihydrocodeine and z drugs.
They have this idea here that tramadol is stronger so they banned its sale online with online prescriptions a while ago.
Some anti depressants could be obtained like that and pregabalin/gabapentin. They made the last two controlled substances recently and so they couldn't be prescribed online anymore. I got Modafinil prescribed easily as well for my shift work disorder.

Now they have changed the rules from August and you cannot be prescribed any of that online anymore without your GP knowing. Most places have scrapped the sale of them completely now. There is only one place that still prescribes codeine or dhc and stuff like zopiclone with a prescription bought online. They require your consent to contact your gp now. I think soon they will stop selling them altogether.

Codeine linctus and this morphine stuff don’t require a prescription. They’re pharmacy medicines. They can be bought legally without a prescription online easily and theoretically fron any pharmacy anywhere in the UK that is willing to sell them to you. It's at their discretion and they can decide they will sell them only if you show a prescription. Not because it's a legal requirement but because that's their policy.

The big UK pharmacy chain won't sell them to you in person without a prescription for example. It's their policy. Not a legal requirement. That was my point.
I hope I have clarified the matter.