• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
    Drugs

    Welcome Guest!

What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

Status
Not open for further replies.
indigoaura said:
@ThreePointCircle You linked that same article by Tamer Awad that we have been discussing. I keep trying to find contact info for him, because I think he could help us. However, I have not had any luck with that. The second article you posted is one I have not seen before, but it seems to be addressing the same issue.
Click to expand...

I posted those links a while ago in this thread, but stuff gets easily buried here :\. Looks like that Tamer Awad guy is now working as a chemist in Canada.

What were you hoping to get help from him about? I guess the most beneficial thing would be to persuade the couple of pill testing services to up their game and differentiate properly (assume they are not? with reference to that thesis and paper).

I think twice in this thread someone managed to use raman spec or something and find non-mdma. Were these also sent off to a pill testing service to see if they were able to match the result?
 
@ThreePointCircle I think the hope would be that Tamer Awad, as a published researcher on the topic, could possibly assist in organizing a legitimate research study into this phenomenon, possibly with the goal of identifying a newly emerging psychoactive substance that is a danger to the public.
 
indigoaura said:
@ThreePointCircle I think the hope would be that Tamer Awad, as a published researcher on the topic, could possibly assist in organizing a legitimate research study into this phenomenon, possibly with the goal of identifying a newly emerging psychoactive substance that is a danger to the public.
Click to expand...

My gut feeling is that that guy is somewhat out of research now (I think he's working as a pharmacist) but I like the idea of finding a profiled researcher to help with advocacy. I'll have a think.
 
Hi all... Mooka here...

a bit of background about myself: european late 40's guy, clubber in mid 90's, always read a lot of literature about substances since teen years as personally is a very interesting subject, from a psychological and sociopolitical point of view.
I'd like to add few personal considerations about the mehDMA that is circulating now.

I'm not a professional chemist i'm just interested about chemistry at amateur level but I can recall that in the Hive years people were trying different routes to aminate the PMK for the sake of simplicity or just plain experimentation, but most of the times they were obtaining an inferior product, inferior yields or both.
I think this as been stated recently in this thread. That would make a lot of sense to me, and would give me at least a clue on where to look at.

In fact thinking how mdma is mass produced today make me look in that direction... we have an hypothetical one pot transformation from PMK-glycidate to mehDMA, the big labs don't care about quality of end product, it's all about money, they want a fast, less steps possible reaction that yields high quantities of the end product, who care if this is active in the range of 100-150 mg while the amount produced every batch is kilos upon kilos? specially when the final product tests like the MagicDMA in both on the street test and lab ones.
Most of the people anyway have no clue about the differences between a good product and the poor one.
I'm not talking about a different molecule but possibly the way that the ketone was aminated would make a difference in pharmacokinetics , why I have no clue.

One interesting experiment would be to de-aminate the product and aminate again the ketone obtained using either leuckart (large scale production at the time) or Al/Hg amalgam for small scale.. and see if the product resulting is different or not.
IF the product obtained becomes MAGIC then that would be interesting to ship both products to some testing lab and see if they can find any differences between the two.
Also a complete synthesis of magic would be very useful, you can't produce large quantities but believe it or not it can be produced nearly OTC.
Unless somebody provides some clean real product to compare with the Meh this is and will remain a discussion with no end. =D

a little add: I wonder why MAPS has totally ignored the subject, I think it's extremely counterproductive for their activity not taking this in consideration. If somehow they use MehDMA in their trials I can foresee years of political work going down the drain in a second....
 
Last edited:
@mooka Admittedly, a lot of your post went over my head. How would someone go about de-aminating a product?

I think MAPS is just locked on to their goal of making MDMA a legal prescription by 2021. They don't have time to get de-railed with side research. I reached out to them too, but they never replied.

There are quite a few people in this thread such as @Hilopsilo, @G_Chem, and @Le Junk who have encountered both products. We have samples to send in to a lab. The problem is that Energy Control and Ecstasy Data just do not perform the extent of testing that we need to really understand what is going on. @Hilopsilo submitted multiple samples to a lab (one magic, one not) and the lab showed no difference except percentage. So, clearly, whatever the labs are doing is just not doing it as far as really understanding the nuances of this issue.
 
@mooka- It appears you too have read enough of the Hive to also see they’ve been dealing with issues of varying product from varying synthetic routes since pretty much the beginning.

Your questions are ones I’ve pondered myself, and until we get a chemist in here with a lab to perform these experiments... We will continue to ponder.

This could all be answered by someone with the experience or willingness to experiment.

I think the best way to experiment on this would be to simply use some of the more common routes over the years. It would also require that whoever doing the experiments have access to safrole and commercial PMK gkycidate. Not an easy feat.

@Indigo- In theory, yes an 80/20 split of MDMA/n-formyl-MDA should give an experience akin to early 90’s MDMA. Is it the best or what your looking for in particular?? I’m not sure. I’d definitely be curious to try though. The only way I can think to get pure n-formyl-MDA would be to use the Leuckart to obtain MDA but leave it at the intermediate stage. Purify the intermediate and then mix with MDMA. It would overall be easiest to just synthesize MDMA via Leuckart instead of trying to formulate it yourself.

Really not sure why chemists don’t go back to Leuckart with all the legends seemingly around it’s existence.. Speed seemed to be better according to some people top back then, also a time when Leuckart was used for amphetamines.

-GC
 
psy997 said:
View attachment 13144View attachment 13145View attachment 13146The white balance of the "m2" jpg is too warm, m3 is more accurate color wise, and it is noticeably blue as you can tell from the blurry "m1" photo. It does look grey enough to likely look similar to the grey MehDMA I've had here, so I'm really hoping that's not the case. And, we'll see.
Click to expand...

What I see in that pic makes me think of acetone wash MDMA after a few days, as it takes that darker and silverish tint.
 
indigoaura said:
@mooka Admittedly, a lot of your post went over my head. How would someone go about de-aminating a product?

I think MAPS is just locked on to their goal of making MDMA a legal prescription by 2021. They don't have time to get de-railed with side research. I reached out to them too, but they never replied.

There are quite a few people in this thread such as @Hilopsilo, @G_Chem, and @Le Junk who have encountered both products. We have samples to send in to a lab. The problem is that Energy Control and Ecstasy Data just do not perform the extent of testing that we need to really understand what is going on. @Hilopsilo submitted multiple samples to a lab (one magic, one not) and the lab showed no difference except percentage. So, clearly, whatever the labs are doing is just not doing it as far as really understanding the nuances of this issue.
Click to expand...

I've posted them earlier in the thread, but just for reference in that specific instance:

"We just received the results of the two MDMA samples back from the lab.

1) Brown
qNMR: 85% MDMA
MDP2P present in GC-MS analysis

2) Colourless
qNMR: 91% MDMA
No other compounds present

This is all the information that they were able to provide.
I hope this helps in your search for the answer!"

"colourless" being the sample that created the "magic" reliably at 100mg. The "brown" sample was certainly potent/intense even at 100mg, but uncannily just lacked that feeling that's difficult to put into words, even at much higher doses than 100mg (up to 200-300mg wasn't as good as ~120-150mg of the colourless, according to others who experienced both).

Unfortunately they wouldn't return my emails past this, I don't blame them as they may simply may not have the time or funding for these sorts of endeavors (their focus is opioid use HR sort of things). I was really bummed they wouldn't give info on the remainder percents of the MDMA, its possible that they mainly know how to find MDMA in a sample but going much deeper to get the other stuff would require higher expertise?
 
Last edited:
G_Chem said:
@mooka- It appears you too have read enough of the Hive to also see they’ve been dealing with issues of varying product from varying synthetic routes since pretty much the beginning.

Your questions are ones I’ve pondered myself, and until we get a chemist in here with a lab to perform these experiments... We will continue to ponder.

This could all be answered by someone with the experience or willingness to experiment.

I think the best way to experiment on this would be to simply use some of the more common routes over the years. It would also require that whoever doing the experiments have access to safrole and commercial PMK gkycidate. Not an easy feat.

@Indigo- In theory, yes an 80/20 split of MDMA/n-formyl-MDA should give an experience akin to early 90’s MDMA. Is it the best or what your looking for in particular?? I’m not sure. I’d definitely be curious to try though. The only way I can think to get pure n-formyl-MDA would be to use the Leuckart to obtain MDA but leave it at the intermediate stage. Purify the intermediate and then mix with MDMA. It would overall be easiest to just synthesize MDMA via Leuckart instead of trying to formulate it yourself.

Really not sure why chemists don’t go back to Leuckart with all the legends seemingly around it’s existence.. Speed seemed to be better according to some people top back then, also a time when Leuckart was used for amphetamines.

-GC
Click to expand...
leuckart is still used by many around the world. Though some of the biggest dutch ones have been caught using bmk. I have a feeling the mercury almunin method is what outputting all this trash mdma
 
Last edited:
^^No it isn’t, according to the research articles I’ve seen and all the minor evidence compiled together it died out mostly by the early 2000’s. And mercury/al amalgam is probably the one route which I can say for certain produces good reliable product. It was the common reduction of the 2000’s from what I can see.

These days they use a platinum hydrogenation if I’m remembering correctly. They likely degrade the glycidate to PMK then aminate one pot without analyzing the intermediate or any impurities along the way. Just trusting them Chinese to send a quality product... Heh.

Also Indigo that impurity was MDP2P-ol not MDP2P, similar but still different substances. I’d wager both could potentially compete with MDMA for receptors.

-GC
 
G_Chem said:
^^No it isn’t, according to the research articles I’ve seen and all the minor evidence compiled together it died out mostly by the early 2000’s. And mercury/al amalgam is probably the one route which I can say for certain produces good reliable product. It was the common reduction of the 2000’s from what I can see.

These days they use a platinum hydrogenation if I’m remembering correctly. They likely degrade the glycidate to PMK then aminate one pot without analyzing the intermediate or any impurities along the way. Just trusting them Chinese to send a quality product... Heh.

Also Indigo that impurity was MDP2P-ol not MDP2P, similar but still different substances. I’d wager both could potentially compete with MDMA for receptors.

-GC
Click to expand...
i have seen many lab busts where they had foramide in the news indicating leuckart is still used for small - medium scale opeartors, meanwhile mecurcy/al amalgam is a small scale method, plantium hydogenation is expensive plantium isn't cheap. In holland all methods are been used by different people depedning on what they get their hands on. While australians have used more one pot methods in the past, The dutch usually don't but things have changed in the last few years with the demand growing for meth and speed they will make meth speed and mdma in the same lab
 
Last edited:
Is there any way you can link that?? Biscuit provided an article a while back which was from Australia stating that Platinum hydrogenation was the most commonly used. Leuckart wasn’t even mentioned from what I can remember.

You are right that there was a time when speed (amphetamine sulphate) and mdma were synthesized together. This was back in the 90’s when MDMA was freshly illegal and the already set up amphetamine labs could easily add in MDMA to their repertoire.

Now the more I speak of this the more I hold fast in my convictions because Leuckart isn’t ideal for methamphetamine, much better for regular amphetamine. Labs which produce meth don’t hardly ever use Leuckart, so a higher demand for meth would necessitate that the two be synthesized together.

I ask you please provide evidence of your claims. There’s research articles provided throughout this thread which back up mine, if I gotta go digging I’ll do so but only when I see something in professional writing that supports your argument.

With all that said, you are from New Zealand correct? I could see if your speaking of your particular area, a potential for a niche market with unique chemistry trends.

-GC
 
Hilopsilo said:
I've posted them earlier in the thread, but just for reference in that specific instance:

"We just received the results of the two MDMA samples back from the lab.

1) Brown
qNMR: 85% MDMA
MDP2P present in GC-MS analysis

2) Colourless
qNMR: 91% MDMA
No other compounds present

This is all the information that they were able to provide.
I hope this helps in your search for the answer!"

"colourless" being the sample that created the "magic" reliably at 100mg. The "brown" sample was certainly potent/intense even at 100mg, but uncannily just lacked that feeling that's difficult to put into words, even at much higher doses than 100mg (up to 200-300mg wasn't as good as ~120-150mg of the colourless, according to others who experienced both).

Unfortunately they wouldn't return my emails past this, I don't blame them as they may simply may not have the time or funding for these sorts of endeavors (their focus is opioid use HR sort of things). I was really bummed they wouldn't give info on the remainder percents of the MDMA, its possible that they mainly know how to find MDMA in a sample but going much deeper to get the other stuff would require higher expertise?
Click to expand...


so many great new posts! Wow. Thanks for this one more specifically hilo. So you claim the brown was "mehdma" and the colourless "magic" ? Did you ever post a shot of these batches? Id love to see.
 
G_Chem said:
Is there any way you can link that?? Biscuit provided an article a while back which was from Australia stating that Platinum hydrogenation was the most commonly used. Leuckart wasn’t even mentioned from what I can remember.

You are right that there was a time when speed (amphetamine sulphate) and mdma were synthesized together. This was back in the 90’s when MDMA was freshly illegal and the already set up amphetamine labs could easily add in MDMA to their repertoire.

Now the more I speak of this the more I hold fast in my convictions because Leuckart isn’t ideal for methamphetamine, much better for regular amphetamine. Labs which produce meth don’t hardly ever use Leuckart, so a higher demand for meth would necessitate that the two be synthesized together.

I ask you please provide evidence of your claims. There’s research articles provided throughout this thread which back up mine, if I gotta go digging I’ll do so but only when I see something in professional writing that supports your argument.

With all that said, you are from New Zealand correct? I could see if your speaking of your particular area, a potential for a niche market with unique chemistry trends.

-GC
Click to expand...
Yes my area has very different chemical trends due to alot of restrictions meaning the mdma here is a feeling of mda and mdma but presses come from holland and australia and are very good mdma, but i have been raving in holland and australia years ago i personally find the dutch keep the good stuff to there local supply and the shit they send overseas is for money https://www.dutchnews.nl/?s=mdma lists dutch lab busts, some of them still make huge amounts of speed along with mdma They are more just having 3 labs setup in the same location to make meth via different routes aswell. Blue punishers are the best pills in the world containg up to 300 mg mdma https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=7249 Blue pushiners have been appearing around these parts since 2017 and will def you give the magic of mdma. and should be halfed that are present in holland uk australia and new zealand. It seems the plantium hydrogentation was been used by mdma seized that was coming from czech republic https://www.acic.gov.au/sites/g/fil...type_stimulants_iddr_2016-17.pdf?v=1537141613 it also lists in here how leckuahrt is reemerging by australian labs since 2016
 
Last edited:
epic11 said:
so many great new posts! Wow. Thanks for this one more specifically hilo. So you claim the brown was "mehdma" and the colourless "magic" ? Did you ever post a shot of these batches? Id love to see.
Click to expand...

I could post pictures but im not sure what good it would do so i dont think i can be bothered lol. The brown MehDMA is your run of the mill sassy-smelling brown-amber crystals. The Magic stuff was 100% transparent colorless crystals, so clear you could hold it up to your eye and see right through it, crushes down to a fine white powder, 100% scentless. I was even skeptical of it as i hadnt encountered MDMA like that in the past, but the person i got it from i trust a lot and it was tested. All I have left of that is a tiny sample to be sent into a lab if the opportunity arises, dont have any photos of the magic stuff when it was in larger pieces, its just a tiny bag of white powder now.

I posted a while back somewhere in the thread, a post from another thread on here where people were showing off their stashes, and one of the pictures of their MDMA was EXACTLY how the magic stuff i had looked. you'd have to dig to find that in this thread though.

Now, what was interesting was doing some window shopping on some markets, out of thousands and thousands of listings, i could only find a couple that the photo resembled the magic clear stuff AND, the vendors of those products would mention vague stuff about crappy mdma going around. Stuff like "this is synthesized and not cooked" or "lots of toxins left in other vendors mdma", which means little or nothing without specifics or substantiation.
 
Last edited:
Hilopsilo said:
I could post pictures but im not sure what good it would do so i dont think i can be bothered lol. The brown MehDMA is your run of the mill sassy-smelling brown-amber crystals. The Magic stuff was 100% transparent colorless crystals, so clear you could hold it up to your eye and see right through it, crushes down to a fine white powder, 100% scentless. I was even skeptical of it as i hadnt encountered MDMA like that in the past, but the person i got it from i trust a lot and it was tested. All I have left of that is a tiny sample to be sent into a lab if the opportunity arises, dont have any photos of the magic stuff when it was in larger pieces, its just a tiny bag of white powder now.

I posted a while back somewhere in the thread, a post from another thread on here where people were showing off their stashes, and one of the pictures of their MDMA was EXACTLY how the magic stuff i had looked. you'd have to dig to find that in this thread though.

Now, what was interesting was doing some window shopping on some markets, out of thousands and thousands of listings, i could only find a couple that the photo resembled the magic clear stuff AND, the vendors of those products would mention vague stuff about crappy mdma going around. Stuff like "this is synthesized and not cooked" or "lots of toxins left in other vendors mdma", which means little or nothing without specifics or substantiation.
Click to expand...

I have transparent colorless crystals that do not produce the magic. Thought i could compare.
 
@TripSitterNZ - Thank you for your response. First off you are indeed right, it appears the Leuckart is coming back down in Aus at least I missed that when I looked at the article last time.

That said, the article is the one Biscuit linked. Notice when looking at the table showing percentages based on bulk and not number of seizures, the platinum hydrogenation rose to 98% for 2016. And looking at years past it was on the rise..

Platinum can be an expensive catalyst but with proper technique much of it can be recovered and recycled to be used again and again. So the hydrogenation is only expensive if your lazy and wasteful which I doubt professional labs are when it comes to their bottom line.

Super interesting though that Leuckart is coming back.. God I wanna find me some lol. I’ve been seeing a few Marquis puddles too that resemble the 90’s black to dark blue reactions.

@epic11- Post pictures if you can.

-GC
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top