Kratom Kratom Megathread V.2

[Mycophile]

So if it does go fully illegal, it'll still be around. Just like ayahuasca. People will just have to keep it on the DL.

You really think it'll be something people can find on the street like other drugs and not just the internet?

I really hope so, but I remember asking people on here that question a while back and a few of them said "nope, it'll basically just be like Khat, which barely anyone has ever taken"

I mean I'd like to try Khat but has anyone here ever used it or known anyone who has?

It's pretty much impossible to find and while I'd absolutely love to believe that there will be enough Kratom to sell on the black market if it becomes illegal, I'm not sure it will really be something most people will be able to find.

I know that right now if it became illegal I wouldn't know where to find it, but I don't really have sources for many different drugs like some people.

I don't know how to use the dark web, so maybe it will be available on there, but will probably be very hard to actually find on the street.

 

[Mycophile]

Sorry if this has already been asked ad I didn't read the whole thread. But are there any bad interactions with kratom and benzodiazepines and SSRIs? I am prescribed these for anxiety but really want to try kratom for my sciatica.

Every time I've used Kratom and Kratom extracts I've been on either Lexapro or Prozac with no bad interactions, and I've combined it with Klonopin more times than I can count, also with no bad interactions.

 

[Deemgd]

Last I heard Americans were facing a potential kratom ban too, but I think it's been postponed at least. But TPTB have their guns out for it. Strange this is at the same time when many states are decriminalising Cannabis. But there's no sign of that happening in the UK, even though police bascially turn a blind eye to cannabis possession. Drug laws are SO fucked up 8(

It's illegal in my state. It's a schedule 1- the same as heroin. Which really sucks, because I'm interested in it for pain relief. I would be in heaven if a plant could replace the massive amount of pills I have to take every day., and if it could get me off of this horrible whirlwind of prescription opiate addiction.

Of course, big Pharma isn't going to let that happen.

I can almost guarantee that it will be illegal in all the states within the next 5 years. As soon as that happens, some big pharma company will produce a kratom pill that they can make money off of, and the FDA will allow it to be a schedule 2 for medical use, pill form only- much the same way that opiates or amphetimine are legal in pill form only. Get caught with meth or heroin and it's jail time- get a doctor to write you a prescription for it, packaged neatly in a nice little package (capsule) that big pharma can make bank on and suddenly it's all good.

It's a conspiracy, I tell you.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

It's illegal in my state. It's a schedule 1- the same as heroin. Which really sucks, because I'm interested in it for pain relief. I would be in heaven if a plant could replace the massive amount of pills I have to take every day., and if it could get me off of this horrible whirlwind of prescription opiate addiction.

Of course, big Pharma isn't going to let that happen.

I can almost guarantee that it will be illegal in all the states within the next 5 years. As soon as that happens, some big pharma company will produce a kratom pill that they can make money off of, and the FDA will allow it to be a schedule 2 for medical use, pill form only- much the same way that opiates or amphetimine are legal in pill form only. Get caught with meth or heroin and it's jail time- get a doctor to write you a prescription for it, packaged neatly in a nice little package (capsule) that big pharma can make bank on and suddenly it's all good.

It's a conspiracy, I tell you.

You think there'd be a market for kratom as a pain killer? One of the main attractions to kratom is that its legal, but if it had to compete with all the existing prescription opiates it would fall well short IMO..

Plus it's not like it's not addictive in itself....

As a legal cheap "plant supplement" kratom shines but as yet another Rx opioid agonist it's pretty meh

 

[Slow_Mobius]

You think there'd be a market for kratom as a pain killer? One of the main attractions to kratom is that its legal, but if it had to compete with all the existing prescription opiates it would fall well short IMO..

Plus it's not like it's not addictive in itself....

As a legal cheap "plant supplement" kratom shines but as yet another Rx opioid agonist it's pretty meh

I completely disagree. There's research showing that even though it's still addictive, it's way less addictive than equipotent doses of Rx opioids like morphine. From personal experience, I would also say that it's less addictive and a more effective long-term pain relliever.

There's some unique biochemistry with mitragynine that separates it from basically every other mu opioid agonist currently on the market

 

[Deemgd]

You think there'd be a market for kratom as a pain killer? One of the main attractions to kratom is that its legal, but if it had to compete with all the existing prescription opiates it would fall well short IMO..

Plus it's not like it's not addictive in itself....

As a legal cheap "plant supplement" kratom shines but as yet another Rx opioid agonist it's pretty meh

There's a market for darvocet, voltaran gel, and lidocaine patches- and those are all pretty much worthless as painkillers in my opinion.

 

[Steady Scootin]

I completely disagree. There's research showing that even though it's still addictive, it's way less addictive than equipotent doses of Rx opioids like morphine. From personal experience, I would also say that it's less addictive and a more effective long-term pain relliever.

There's some unique biochemistry with mitragynine that separates it from basically every other mu opioid agonist currently on the market

Agree with M?bius here, definitely believe it has potential to be effective. Really though, even if you or whoever disagrees, I would think that we can agree it certainly deserves further research and so in, as opposed to being scheduled piecemeal, placed alongside powerful and often life ruining opioids.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

There's a market for darvocet, voltaran gel, and lidocaine patches- and those are all pretty much worthless as painkillers in my opinion.

Yeah but out of those 3 only darvocet is an opioid...I'm talking about competing with other drugs in the opioid class.

And propoxyphene/(dextropropoxyphene have been banned in many countries due to the fact that their toxicity/effectiveness ratio is so bad.

So not really a comparison.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

I completely disagree. There's research showing that even though it's still addictive, it's way less addictive than equipotent doses of Rx opioids like morphine. From personal experience, I would also say that it's less addictive and a more effective long-term pain relliever.

There's some unique biochemistry with mitragynine that separates it from basically every other mu opioid agonist currently on the market

That's a matter of perspective really. I wasnt stating that it's massively addictive or that it's completely ineffective as a painkiller, but that given a scenario where if tomorrow kratom was sold in tablets as "kratslgesic" or some such name, I doubt it would be superior to existing opioid analgesics in many if any ways.

I understand that kratom fans often think its the best thing since sliced bread, but I just don't agree. If I was shown some legitimate, long term, consistent studies (not just the odd cherry picked one) that proved otherwise I might think different.

 

[Deemgd]

That's a matter of perspective really. I wasnt stating that it's massively addictive or that it's completely ineffective as a painkiller, but that given a scenario where if tomorrow kratom was sold in tablets as "kratslgesic" or some such name, I doubt it would be superior to existing opioid analgesics in many if any ways.

It may not be superior to current RX opiates, but perhaps it could be a script option for chronic pain patients whose doctors are afraid to write scripts for the "strong" opiods.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

That's a matter of perspective really. I wasnt stating that it's massively addictive or that it's completely ineffective as a painkiller, but that given a scenario where if tomorrow kratom was sold in tablets as "kratslgesic" or some such name, I doubt it would be superior to existing opioid analgesics in many if any ways.

I understand that kratom fans often think its the best thing since sliced bread, but I just don't agree. If I was shown some legitimate, long term, consistent studies (not just the odd cherry picked one) that proved otherwise I might think different.

The current body of research shows that it's less habit forming than Rx opioids like morphine. It also doesn't recruit beta-arrestin to the same extent that our modern pharmacopeia of mu-opioid agonists do, and that corroborates the lack off-target toxicities and dependence seen in animal models.

Current research shows it has the potential to be superior to existing opioids in a number of ways. We obviously need human studies before we can know for sure, but preliminary research has been really promising for developing a superior class of opioids from mitragynine analogues. IIRC some pharma companies have even patented some synthesis routes for mitragynine analogues.

If a mu-opioid agonist that doesn't recruit beta-arrestin doesn't get you excited, I don't know what kind of opioid analgesic will

 

[Backfromthebrink]

The current body of research shows that it's less habit forming than Rx opioids like morphine. It also doesn't recruit beta-arrestin to the same extent that our modern pharmacopeia of mu-opioid agonists do, and that corroborates the lack off-target toxicities and dependence seen in animal models.

Current research shows it has the potential to be superior to existing opioids in a number of ways. We obviously need human studies before we can know for sure, but preliminary research has been really promising for developing a superior class of opioids from mitragynine analogues. IIRC some pharma companies have even patented some synthesis routes for mitragynine analogues.

If a mu-opioid agonist that doesn't recruit beta-arrestin doesn't get you excited, I don't know what kind of opioid analgesic will

That's interesting. If when human studies come out it does show to be superior to existing opioids in some ways then that would be great. It's just I'm sceptical at this point since (as far as I'm aware) there haven't been any clinical trials to prove any of this in humans.

Whenever you approach sonething from a standpoint of scepticism, words such as "preliminary research" and "need human studies" just don't convince me in the least that it would be anymore effective than the current list of opioid medications available to patients.

I would concede that it's probably going to be less habbit forming than morphine but in my eyes, to be superior it would have to show any appreciable increased efficacy over the other opiates/opioids that are also less habbit forming than morphine...assuming if course there are any human studies to prove that it IS indeed less habbit forming in the first place.

I know you've mentioned "current bodies of research" and "current research" but do have any specific studies? I just not convinced man...it would take a meta-analysis of human double blind lab controlled studies to convince me that kratom would offer any real benefits..

I'm not saying it absolutely doesn't....just that I'm sceptical and I don't think the evidence exists to prove it does..

As you rightly say, a mu agonist that doesn't recruit beta arrestin is interesting, it's just that lots of things look good on paper but don't pan out in the real world.....we'll see.


The real mystery is that why hasnt modern pharmaceutical research been able to develop an analgesic with an efficacy on a par with morphine or other strong opiates that ISN'T a narcotic? Yes there are other painkillers out there that rely on other mechanisms, but non truely come close to matching the effectiveness of opioids (anaesthetics and dissociatives asside). It's either that such a mechanism of action just doesn't exist within human physiology or maybe it is in the interests of pharmaceutical companies to keep pumping out drugs that get patients hooked and always coming back for more....hmmmm

 

[Mycophile]

It's illegal in my state. It's a schedule 1- the same as heroin. Which really sucks, because I'm interested in it for pain relief. I would be in heaven if a plant could replace the massive amount of pills I have to take every day., and if it could get me off of this horrible whirlwind of prescription opiate addiction.

Of course, big Pharma isn't going to let that happen.

I can almost guarantee that it will be illegal in all the states within the next 5 years. As soon as that happens, some big pharma company will produce a kratom pill that they can make money off of, and the FDA will allow it to be a schedule 2 for medical use, pill form only- much the same way that opiates or amphetimine are legal in pill form only. Get caught with meth or heroin and it's jail time- get a doctor to write you a prescription for it, packaged neatly in a nice little package (capsule) that big pharma can make bank on and suddenly it's all good.

It's a conspiracy, I tell you.

And then what will happen is it will become available on the black market and probably MORE people will use it than they even do now, yet illegally, because it will seem that much more attractive.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

That's interesting. If when human studies come out it does show to be superior to existing opioids in some ways then that would be great. It's just I'm sceptical at this point since (as far as I'm aware) there haven't been any clinical trials to prove any of this in humans.

Whenever you approach sonething from a standpoint of scepticism, words such as "preliminary research" and "need human studies" just don't convince me in the least that it would be anymore effective than the current list of opioid medications available to patients.

I would concede that it's probably going to be less habbit forming than morphine but in my eyes, to be superior it would have to show any appreciable increased efficacy over the other opiates/opioids that are also less habbit forming than morphine...assuming if course there are any human studies to prove that it IS indeed less habbit forming in the first place.

I know you've mentioned "current bodies of research" and "current research" but do have any specific studies? I just not convinced man...it would take a meta-analysis of human double blind lab controlled studies to convince me that kratom would offer any real benefits..

I'm not saying it absolutely doesn't....just that I'm sceptical and I don't think the evidence exists to prove it does..

As you rightly say, a mu agonist that doesn't recruit beta arrestin is interesting, it's just that lots of things look good on paper but don't pan out in the real world.....we'll see.


The real mystery is that why hasnt modern pharmaceutical research been able to develop an analgesic with an efficacy on a par with morphine or other strong opiates that ISN'T a narcotic? Yes there are other painkillers out there that rely on other mechanisms, but non truely come close to matching the effectiveness of opioids (anaesthetics and dissociatives asside). It's either that such a mechanism of action just doesn't exist within human physiology or maybe it is in the interests of pharmaceutical companies to keep pumping out drugs that get patients hooked and always coming back for more....hmmmm

Lol. I guess if you need meta-analysis of double-blind human studies, I'd be wasting my time giving you reading material. You're pickier than the FDA Fortunately, scientists understand the importance and value of using model systems. That's where about 99.9% of our understanding of biology comes from.

In short, there is not empirical scientific evidence that kratom is better than any Rx opioids in humans. However, the data we do have suggests that mitragynine/kratom derived products could have distinct advantages over any current Rx opioids on the market. I'm sure someone will eventually take mitragynine analogues through clinical trials, as it looks like some pharma companies have begun gearing up to do so.

My main concern is that the products that are mass produced will likely whiff on some tangible benefits in marinol vs cannabis style.

 

[Reanimator13]

Question for any of you Kratom experts... Im about 8 months free of a decade long 300mg a day Morphine habit ( Pain Management ). Pain has been kicking my butt... Life has been pretty miserable.

I decided to order some moderate Kratom ( Malay Green ). This morning I went and tried it the first time. Did a level teaspoon ( 2 grams ) with some apple sauce. First hour after kick in was just mood elevating ( very Mellow ). Then the train came and ran me over and I slept for 4 hours. Very sleepy to put it mildly.

The experience was not at all opiate like. It did help with pain levels but not at all energetic. Mood enhancing yes. Morphine was always full of energy and fairly clear headedness. Kratom felt like it was dumbing me down. Is what im describing here normal? Going to try a half dose next Friday when I do not have to work ( cannot risk missing work ). I'm not seeing the magic here... Unless of course as a sleep aid.

I also want to add this was purchased from a reputable vendor.

Thanks
R13

 

[Max Flight]

Some very informative reading, and some pretty funny comments too. I'm going to chime in here again, since I am currently doing the "kratom Kick" to not get sick. 2nd month in a row. This time I am just 4 days from seeing the doctor, and I have half an 8 mg dillie left. I am given 4 a day. But due to a really bad sciatica episode that lasted for about 4 days a week, I ran myself short. I did a whole one this morning, to get right, and just took my first dose of kratom about 5-6 grams of meng da.

That was about an hour ago and I am already feeling better. Nose has stopped running, no more cramps. And I feel kinda like I did some oxycodone....although I would much prefer the oxy . I have never tried it except to fight withdrawal symptoms. And it is good for that. I wish that it made me tired. I always feel kinda ampy...even at large doses 13-15 grams. But I have used it many times to fight withdrawal symptoms. Only downside is that I gotta dose every 5 hours or so to keep the chills away. I like it better than suboxone, but not as well as methadone. Strictly for withdrawals, and managing pain.

I can definitely tell you that you can become dependant on kratom, as I have experienced it before. It's not nearly as bad as opioid or benzo withdrawal. Another factor is quality, type of kratom, etc. So it kinda like buds. Once you find a good source, go with that. Consistency will probably always vary from batch to batch. I know a couple of guys who have hedges of the stuff, as it grows wonderfully here. I have never really asked, but I am sure that there's certain stages when it's more potent, or certain parts, age of the leaves, etc. I am a long time cannabis cultivar. And there's definitely a trick to growing that right. I have seen many kinds with many different names. Certain varieties are better than others. Quality is probably a crap shoot in most cases. So ,there's a lot of variables going on with kratom. Gonna be a tough 4 days. But at least I have some kratom.

 

[FlawedByDesign]

Until the FDA sacrafices it to Big Pharma.

 

[FlawedByDesign]

Question for any of you Kratom experts... Im about 8 months free of a decade long 300mg a day Morphine habit ( Pain Management ). Pain has been kicking my butt... Life has been pretty miserable.

I decided to order some moderate Kratom ( Malay Green ). This morning I went and tried it the first time. Did a level teaspoon ( 2 grams ) with some apple sauce. First hour after kick in was just mood elevating ( very Mellow ). Then the train came and ran me over and I slept for 4 hours. Very sleepy to put it mildly.

The experience was not at all opiate like. It did help with pain levels but not at all energetic. Mood enhancing yes. Morphine was always full of energy and fairly clear headedness. Kratom felt like it was dumbing me down. Is what im describing here normal? Going to try a half dose next Friday when I do not have to work ( cannot risk missing work ). I'm not seeing the magic here... Unless of course as a sleep aid.

I also want to add this was purchased from a reputable vendor.

Thanks
R13

You want something like Red Bali/Borneo. Green Malay really does remind me in a way of coffee.

 

[Reanimator13]

You want something like Red Bali/Borneo. Green Malay really does remind me in a way of coffee.

Thanks... its on my try list.

 

[Reanimator13]

Tried the Green Malay at 1 gram this morning... two hours later im snoozing. It hit me when I woke up... This feels an awful lot like gabapentin without the nasty side effects.

At this point I actually feel this is the right strain for pain management. Im just taking it at the wrong time. The worst time for me is at night. A bad night of tossing and turning turns into an even worse day. The pain compounds. My 10 years with morphine always allowed for a solid nights sleep.

The Norm for me the last 8 months since detoxing from a decade of 300mg of morphine daily has been pain when I wake. No ifs ands or butts... Mornings suck big time. Even an hour nap will result in pain. Both times I took the green malay I woke with no pain. My pain level was manageable for the rest of the day.

So going to do 1-2 grams at night for a week or so and see how it goes... Since im not trying to get a buzz im hoping the pain reduction stays. If I start chasing the dragon im done... not going down that road again.

Now for the bad part... Im pretty sure the ban is coming. The DEA/FDA could give a rats ass about who gets hurt ( Folks using it for ailments ), they only see the abuse. You ban it and alot of folks benefit. Big Pharma makes out on increased sales. Court systems cash in on the busts. Corporate prisons cash in. Attorneys cash in. Drug rehab cashes in... Its a win/win for big money. And big money runs this f...ed up country.

R13