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Substitute for MDMA

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Swim15

Bluelighter
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Sep 11, 2016
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Long and short is that I'm a corporate guy pursuing multiple degrees and a doctorate and like my brain so I only roll a couple times a year with fairly extensive harm reduction.

Anyways, been looking for a combo that is as close to MDMA I can get without the same potential for damage. Tried a combo at a show that got as close as I have come with lots of euphoria, high, and was about 70% of what rolling feels like.

Combo was 2g mushrooms + 25mg 2CB + two small bumps of coke at a show recently. Taken a long time to get that close.

Next time will probably increase a little and go 2.5g mushrooms + 30mg 2cb + small amount of coke. May try adding 2-3g of GHB as well.

Just figured I'd share as I've been trying a lot of combos for a while
 
MDAI or MDMAI could be non-neurotoxic alternatives, although there is only few information about their general toxicity. You can minimize the neurotoxicity of MDMA by using pure checked MDMA - best would be NMR spectoscropic checked to also seek for possible highly toxic synthesis impurities - using antioxidants like stabilized R-Alpha-Lipoic acid, Vitamin C and Vitamin E, keeping the body temperature low by checking it every half hour, staying in a cool area and not dancing/moving too much and taking low to moderate doses (max. 1,5mg/kg).
The antioxidants should be taken 2-3 days constantly before the roll so some active levels could build up.
But this only protects from neurotoxicity, neurochemical changes and elevated cortisol levels (up to 4x of normal) that can last a few months still occur even if you follow all those rules. It's really better to roll only max. twice in a year.
Another alternative from my perspective is Tramadol, the high is quite different to MDMA, but also very pleasant and non-neurotoxic. The danger here is the higher addiction potential.
 
Actually haven't looked into those two but I will.

Pretty heavy on harm reduction supps and drugs. Add metformin to that list as well as a few other neuroprotective pharmaceuticals. I use pharmaceuticals that control cortisol so no issue there. Also have access to testing and very pure mdma so no worries about that.
 
Swim15 said:
Next time will probably increase a little and go 2.5g mushrooms + 30mg 2cb + small amount of coke. May try adding 2-3g of GHB as well.

Just figured I'd share as I've been trying a lot of combos for a while
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Is this really safer than just using MDMA once every couple of months?
 
Why metfomin?
And milk thistle extract could be also helpful to support the liver
 
Combinations of drugs are far less studied and therefore understood. What makes you think this has less damage than mdma alone?

Are small very infrequent doses of mdma actually a cause of anything to a person over their life? What does the known neurotoxicity actual translate too?
 
The neurotoxicity occurs under special circumstances, such as overheating, overdoses and combination with some other drugs or lack of antioxidants.
But MDMA causes some changes in brain chemistry that are reversible and work on another pathway than the neurotoxicity. It's still unclear how this affects someone.
So even if you do everything right, brain chemistry changes still occur. That's only something you should keep in your mind. Sometimes it can be beneficial, but it also can be destabilizing.
 
Wiserthanearlier said:
Combinations of drugs are far less studied and therefore understood. What makes you think this has less damage than mdma alone?

Are small very infrequent doses of mdma actually a cause of anything to a person over their life? What does the known neurotoxicity actual translate too?
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What makes me think that? Knowing the MOA of those substances lol.

Will responsible infrequent use of MDMA do any damage? Probably not. But what would you rather deal with, reversal which is hard if not impossible or prevention which is exceedingly easy?
 
Sorry but even Psilocybin and 2-CB show serotogenic neurotoxicity in higher doses, and GHB itself is also neurotoxic, especially in lower doses.
So you can't just say because it's not MDMA it is not harmful to the brain.
 
Amml said:
Sorry but even Psilocybin and 2-CB show serotogenic neurotoxicity in higher doses, and GHB itself is also neurotoxic, especially in lower doses.
So you can't just say because it's not MDMA it is not harmful to the brain.
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Ok...I guess first, psilocybin in relatively normal doses has never been shown to be neurotoxic in humans and can find numerous medical sources stating the same with just a quick Google.

2c-b...we don't know 100% but it is likely not neurotoxic in typical dose ranges but I won't say that it absolutely is or is not because no one knows although data suggests it is not.

GHB has been shown to be neurotoxic in rats (who do not have naturally occurring GHB in their brains) but not neurotoxic in humans from all research I've seen. If it is neurotoxic then it is in the magnitude along the lines of alcohol.

I'm not saying there is 100% no risk whatsoever in this combo, just that when taken in consideration of the effects of MDMA and massive drain on the serotonergic system, its much safer and won't leave you with the suicide tuesdays
 
Swim15 said:
I'm not saying there is 100% no risk whatsoever in this combo, just that when taken in consideration of the effects of MDMA and massive drain on the serotonergic system, its much safer and won't leave you with the suicide tuesdays
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Can you explain this? I don't think occasional MDMA use (following these guidelines, perhaps) causes a "massive drain on the serotonergic system."

I'd hesitate to say your combination is "much safer" than MDMA, since MDMA has already passed multiple clinical trials in which it was administered to patients multiple times in a year, including one in which veterans received three doses at 3-5 week intervals.

It's true that using MDMA too frequently will cause problems for the user, but I think it's important to note that as far as we know, frequently using the combinations you've described might also have an unwanted effect on neurotransmitter regulation.
 
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Amml said:
Sorry but even Psilocybin and 2-CB show serotogenic neurotoxicity in higher doses, and GHB itself is also neurotoxic, especially in lower doses.
So you can't just say because it's not MDMA it is not harmful to the brain.
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Citations please? Never heard of psilocybin or GHB being neurotoxic to humans before, only rapid tolerance and withdrawals from GHB when overused due to its effects on GABA-B and GHB receptors in the brain.
 
Xzbtya said:
Citations please? Never heard of psilocybin or GHB being neurotoxic to humans before, only rapid tolerance and withdrawals from GHB when overused due to its effects on GABA-B and GHB receptors in the brain.
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Ok I was wrong with the Psilocybin, but in GHB it's at least proven in rats that in low doses it causes heavy damage by activating the GHB receptor only in low doses, which causes high glutamate release and is therefore neurotoxic, while in higher doses the neurotoxic effects are lower because of the activation of the GABA-receptors that work inhibiting on glutamate release.
Only know from some other tryptamines that they can cause specific serotogenic axonal damage similar to MDMA at higher doses (e.g. Alpha-Ethyltryptamine).
The problem with combinations is that you never really know how they interfere with each other and therefore may cause damage that won't occur when the drugs are taken seperated.

GHB neurotoxicity: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19288974
 
to Swim the op, I think you're over reaching by thinking mdma will cause brain damage and reduce your intellectual capacity. It is approved for clinical trials and currently given to humans in the context of clinical trials, the FDA wouldn't have approved it if it caused brain damage and neurotoxicity at regular doses, they are pretty strict about what drugs they let doctors give the humans.
 
LucidSDreamr said:
to Swim the op, I think you're over reaching by thinking mdma will cause brain damage and reduce your intellectual capacity. It is approved for clinical trials and currently given to humans in the context of clinical trials, the FDA wouldn't have approved it if it caused brain damage and neurotoxicity at regular doses, they are pretty strict about what drugs they let doctors give the humans.
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Get where you are coming from but given that I have a fairly extensive pharmaceutical background I'd personally disagree. The FDA is run by big pharma and approve drugs all the time that should never have made it through clinical trials much less be approved.

When it comes to MDMA as a prescription drug, they are talking about VERY tightly regulated use. As in it can only be administered in an approved facility by an approved doctor at one dose immediately before a psychotherapy session. With this, they are weighing someone being unable to live a normal life due to a mental disorder or PTSD...what's worse, kill a few brain cells with MDMA and live a normal life or never live a normal life? In that case, it's the lesser of two evils. That's also in the case of a low (lower than recreational) dose of completely pure MDMA and in a controlled environment (not a hot environment with the possibility of dehydration, combination with other drugs, or contamination with other drugs).

When it comes to black market MDMA use, it's not even a comparable situation and while moderate use will likely never produce noticeable negative cognitive effects, I'd like to keep all my brain cells.

Not saying anyone has to agree but figured I would share my experience because I see a lot of threads on this and finally found a combo I found comparable.
 
Amml said:
Ok I was wrong with the Psilocybin, but in GHB it's at least proven in rats that in low doses it causes heavy damage by activating the GHB receptor only in low doses, which causes high glutamate release and is therefore neurotoxic, while in higher doses the neurotoxic effects are lower because of the activation of the GABA-receptors that work inhibiting on glutamate release.
Only know from some other tryptamines that they can cause specific serotogenic axonal damage similar to MDMA at higher doses (e.g. Alpha-Ethyltryptamine).
The problem with combinations is that you never really know how they interfere with each other and therefore may cause damage that won't occur when the drugs are taken seperated.

GHB neurotoxicity: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19288974
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That was in rats which also don't have naturally occurring GHB like humans do so I would say that the study isn't even remotely applicable to humans. Cross species studies often times do apply but also often do not apply
 
Swim15 said:
Get where you are coming from but given that I have a fairly extensive pharmaceutical background I'd personally disagree. The FDA is run by big pharma and approve drugs all the time that should never have made it through clinical trials much less be approved.
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this is only because said company owns the patents on drug they are influencing the FDA to let through. MDMA can not longer be patented due to statutory considerations. The synths cannot be patented since they are known for some and easy/efficient.

The companies influencing the FDA own rights to drugs. Generic companies that would manufacture legal mdma don't have enough influence to do such things or much motive to since they would have no patented monopoly.

so I have to disagree that pharma cares to influence the FDA in this case.


on topic. d-amphetamine will be your closest "safe" thing to mdma.
 
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