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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

MDMA Chemistry/Pharmacology Thread

Substitution reaction
piperonal + nitroethane = 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl2nitropropene


reductive animation
nitromethane is not needed




of nitromethane get Nitrostyrene


I know amphetamine made from Nitrostyrene not active
Mdma I think also not active .
 
Substitution reaction
piperonal + nitroethane = 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl2nitropropene


reductive animation
nitromethane is not needed




of nitromethane get Nitrostyrene


I know amphetamine made from Nitrostyrene not active
Mdma I think also not active .

You are completely off-base. There's plenty of info about this online, on the clearnet even. Suffice it to say, reductive amination does not involve a nitrostyrene intermediate, and the nitrostyrene route involves completely separate reactions and precursors to the P2P route. I have no idea why you would think that nitrostyrene-derived amp would be inactive either, but that's beside the point.
 
I said that in the description of what Playboy Pill.
Write that made from safrole.
Then describe the way in which the synthesis of nitromethane.
1 - reductive animation nitromethane is not needed
2 nitromethane is not needed if the precursor safrole.
Dealers written description is not true
Al / nitromethane / HgCl2 / MDP2P reductive amination
 
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I said that in the description of what Playboy Pill.
Write that made from safrole.
Then describe the way in which the synthesis of nitromethane.
1 - reductive animation nitromethane is not needed
2 nitromethane is not needed if the precursor safrole.
Dealers written description is not true test.

Yeah no you have no idea what you're talking about. The forum rules do not permit me to to explain why, unfortunately, but any degree of org chem knowledge would be enough to see that that step is fine exactly as claimed.
 
Al / nitromethane / HgCl2 / MDP2P reductive amination - do you think it is right ?
 
Energy control have tested some MD which also has MDDM. Here's a quote from the guy who sent in the sample:

"This batch had an acetone smell when I opened it. EC detected MDDM so this MDMA must have been made with a synthetic precursor and not safrole. I have a feeling it may not be racemic as the high was not as euphoric as some MDMA I've had before. The comedown was not as bad either. I have heard synthetic precursors can produce MDMA with just one stereoisomer but I don't know the details. Maybe someone else can can confirm if this is possible as it may just be my tolerance messing with the report"

But then the Wikipedia entry for MDDM says its usually a leftover when MD is made from MDA using safrole as a precursor.

So which of these is right?
 
That's my mate who sent it in :D

It's possible that is how it was made. Who knows. If it is though it's similar to dealers who press PMMA pills, because they use it to run a test before making the MDMA to see everything's working, they should bin it, but some are greedy fuckers who don't care and press it anyway.


There's still rainbow drops, safrole MDMA, Mercedes AMG's and blue Deceptions around all those have had good reviews here. The guy who sent that in has since had the UK safrole stuff and said that first German stuff being shit wasn't down to tolerance. I'm sure you'll see a lab result for that coming soon from the same username.
 
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I just hope the political overlords are aware that the upcoming NPS ban is gonna scatter kilo's of cheap precursors to anyone with an eye for opportunity and an internet connection...
The piperonal compounds are not something I envisage being as ubiquitous in clandestine synth over the next decade, the contraption conjured for their utilisation is running a little short on dated fuel sources just as more practical options present themselves. Crude oil may have powered a Hummer, but biodiesel and hydroelectric systems will ultimately eclipse the crushed dinosaur mess.
 
Throw in forthcoming phase out of specific solvents (toluene dimethylene chloride) and things indeed look bleak.

Bleak? Pfffft.
Bleak would be relevant plant species (Sass... ) suddenly going extinct and every chem. supply house burning down simultaneously.

It is the Pandora's Box of Pharmacology.
Drug design has been dominated by minor tweaking of specific drugs to escape the clutches of pointless politically motivated prosecution for the last decade, once the pharmacophore begins its return journey things get a little disconcerting. Thousands of now unemployed skilled chemists with access to the finest tools and tricks of technological transformation and synthetic magic tricks and an incomprehensibly massive stockpile of precursors and chemicals that are just as illegal as the possibilities....

The 21st century is an incredible time to be interested in scientific advances, to be druggie scum, to be the faceless audience to the screenplay of money, power, law, discovery and pure scientific ingenuity.
<3
 
Cheers for sharing, that's really helpful. I've seen them but wasn't sure of their origin - are you 100% sure they're from the same source?

Also, any chance that you marquis tested them? I'm just interested to see if this supports the purple/quality MDMA theory.

The original presses from the Manc crew if you check on pillreport the UFO's the turtles tested purple. Some of the ones users have reported as being better/old skool such as Dutch lions, silver bars, UPS pills, blue instagrams also tested purple.

Often other colours of the same pills with the Dutch ones don't seem to be the same stuff. If you think about it from the pressers point of view put the best MDMA in the first batch then after the follow ups when you run out of the limited supply safrole/PMK continue pressing with the standard Gycidate stuff.

I think the Manc crew follow the above business model aswell. It's all any of them can do when the supply of safrole/PMK is limited.
 
Why are people throwing a wobbler when the mini coopers have come up black instead of what you all assumed and wanted it to come up (purple). Maybe face the fact that they might have had to resort to the same synth because of costs or just availability.

Brenner has tested them and you're looking at faults in the kits as opposed to the pills, not saying I'm not a bit gutted but come on, wake up and smell the coffee maybe.

I agree, my kit is fine and I do have a fairly good selection of pills / MDA that I test with it and all comes back with the correct results. At first I was interested in the "marquis turning purple rather than black" result but i'm not entirely convinced it reflects the quality of MDMA now. For example if there is a small amount of MDA present this will give a purple edge to the marquis. By the way, if anyone is interested, I tried combining 100MG MDMA with 50MG MDA to see if that would give the same effect as the early 90's pills. No energy to be honest and pretty trippy stuff (felt spaced out). Anyway, think I've found the answer. Check out this info I found:

Without getting too technical, when MxxxP is used to make MDMA it is a non-asymmetric synthesis. Think of it like lambs walking along in a line and an eagle swoopsdown and grabs a lamb from the left hand side then fly's away. The next eagle grabs a lamb from the right hand side then fly's away, this goes on in turnattaching to the left then right in equilibrium. So in the making MDMA withMxxxP we always wend up with a half /half mixture of MDMA (+) & (-). WhenMxxxP was cheap and abundant the company's in India and China contracted tosupply did chiral resolution as part of the manufacturing process delivering themore potent (+)-enantiomer.

There's your answer, this change happened mid 90's so makes sense that pills slowly went downhill after that as stock of MXXXP MDMA ran out and chemists had to find alternate ways. Want your early 90's pills back such as snowballs and Dennis the Mennis caps? You need someone to synthesize the MDMA the original way. Then you'll have the same experience you see in the warehouse rave videos from 88/89 etc.
 
Cheers mister

Good post mate. I completely agree. And like Treacle said I think the closest to that synth must surely be the pills from the Manc presser.

Yep I think were onto it here. In terms of how far off the dutch stuff is from the original synth back in the late 80s i'd say we are at about N-3 (Where N is the original synth route and the negative number represents the deviations away from it)

N - Late 80s & early 90s (the stuff you see in the warehouse videos)
-1 - Late 90s. Still good stuff but just not quite as potent as the original
-2 early to mid 2000s. Again a step down from -1
-3 post drought, 2011 ish till present. Now we are another step down from -2 and the difference between the effects of the N synth and -3 are very obvious. Compare todays MDMA experience videos with the warehouse rave vids, and those pills back then were only about 60mg MDMA vs todays 200mg+. Almost a different chemical entirely judging by the experience.

To me this blows the theory of "MDMA is MDMA" right out the water.

Now if only we could get a chemist to synthesize some MDMA the original way (i.e "N").....
 
Cheers mister



Yep I think were onto it here. In terms of how far off the dutch stuff is from the original synth back in the late 80s i'd say we are at about N-3 (Where N is the original synth route and the negative number represents the deviations away from it)

N - Late 80s & early 90s (the stuff you see in the warehouse videos)
-1 - Late 90s. Still good stuff but just not quite as potent as the original
-2 early to mid 2000s. Again a step down from -1
-3 post drought, 2011 ish till present. Now we are another step down from -2 and the difference between the effects of the N synth and -3 are very obvious. Compare todays MDMA experience videos with the warehouse rave vids, and those pills back then were only about 60mg MDMA vs todays 200mg+. Almost a different chemical entirely judging by the experience.

To me this blows the theory of "MDMA is MDMA" right out the water.

Now if only we could get a chemist to synthesize some MDMA the original way (i.e "N").....


Yea I think you are on the money mate. Not alot we can do now

Just had 30mg 2cb after dinner there. Hoping for a nice trip %)
 
I have doubts about the accuracy of various comments above, which suggested that in the old days near pure S-MDMA was commonplace and this was the reason for why the effects were so good and the dosage comparatively low. All of the earlier methods of manufacture produced racemic MDMA and separating the two enantiomers is a difficult and time consuming process. The only purpose of doing this back then would have been to produce enantiomerically pure S-MDMA and R-MDMA for research purposes.

One well known study in relation to the effects of the S and R enantiomers of MDMA is the following:

Anderson et al. (1978). Absolute configuration and psychotomimetic activity.
Anderson, G. M., Braun, G., Braun, U., Nichols, D. E. & Shulgin, A. T. (1978). Absolute
configuration and psychotomimetic activity. NIDA Research Monograph, 22, 8-15.

http://www.maps.org/publications/1978_anderson_1.pdf

Purpose: Pharmacological, psychological; Comparison of effects of the R and S isomers of MDMA, and argument for placing MDMA in a classification separate from the classic hallucinogens on the basis of the profile of these isomers.

Design: Non-experimental uncontrolled within-subjects design, wherein all volunteers received at least one dose of each form of MDMA; racemate, R-MDMA and S-MDMA, at doses including those of 40-200 mg. (Also performed comparative studies on rabbits wherein hyperthermic response to racemate and each isomer of MDMA was compared with response to the phenethylamine classic hallucinogen, DOM).

Subjects: Unspecified number (perhaps 6 (6 x 5)?) of human volunteers, probably including the authors, gender and ages of volunteers not provided. Information on subject recruitment not provided. Criteria for Inclusion – Prior experience with psychedelic drugs. (An unspecified number of rabbits were used in studies of drug-induced hyperthermia).

Measures: An author-constructed five-point rating scale for overall drug effects, with rating dependent upon degree and intensity / intrusiveness (described as “disruptiveness”) of subjective drug effects, and open-ended narratives wherein volunteers described drug effects. (Rectal hyperthermia in rabbits)

Analyses: No formal analyses were performed. Comparative drug effects of racemic MDMA, R-MDMA and S-MDMA are presented in descriptive form.

Results: Volunteers reported that racemic MDMA was active at 5 mg – 150 mg. S-MDMA was reported to be effective at doses of 80 mg – 120 mg. The effective doses for R-MDMA were far higher, and even 200 mg. R-MDMA did not produce the full intoxication obtained with racemic MDMA. Most of the emotional and sensory effects reported with the racemate are present with S-MDMA, but volunteers reported that they preferred the racemate to S-MDMA alone. The physiological effects of the racemate were also present with S-MDMA, including dilated pupils (mydriasis) and jaw clenching. R-MDMA did not produce these physiological effects. However, 2 / 6 or 2 / 35 reported “color enhancement” with RMDMA but not with S-MDMA. (These volunteers reported experiencing color enhancement with racemic MDMA). The authors conclude that the effects found with each isomer, alone or summed, did not account for the effects of racemic MDMA. (In rabbits, S-MDMA produced greater elevation in body temperature (rectal hyperthermia) than either R-MDMA or racemic MDMA).

Overall Effects: S-MDMA was far more active than the R-enantiomer and moderately more active than the racemate. S-MDMA had a lower effective dose than the R-enantiomer and it seemed to produce most or all of the effects associated with racemic MDMA, including psychological effects and side effects. R-MDMA was found to have a much higher effective dose range, and it did not produce an intoxication comparable to racemic MDMA even after 200 mg R-MDMA. With the possible exception of altered perception of color, S-MDMA appeared to possess most of the effects of the racemate. Nevertheless, volunteers preferred the effects of the racemate to either R-MDMA or S-MDMA, and the authors conclude that racemic MDMA produces effects that are not simply the sum of the effects produced by each enantiomer alone. The authors argue that because the R-enantiomers of hallucinogens are typically more potent than S-enantiomers and MDMA was more active as the S-enantiomer, MDMA should not be classed as a hallucinogen. (As with humans, studies with rabbits indicated that the S-enantiomer of MDMA was more active than the R-enantiomer, when hyperthermia is used as a test of activity).

Adverse Effects: See above; an unspecified number of volunteers reported sweating and jaw clenching with racemic MDMA and with S-MDMA.

The findings of the above study is consistent with what Shulgin has told us as well.

See also: Fallon, J. K.; Kicman, A. T.; Henry, J. A.; Milligan, P. J.; Cowan, D. A.; Hutt, A. J.; Stereospecific Analysis and Enantiomeric Disposition of 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (Ecstasy) in Humans, Clinical Chemistry, 1999, 45, 1058-1069.


Some of the comments about the lack of certain physical side effects of the R isomer above are very interesting. We have all been talking about the lack of empathy and "loved-up" euphoria missing from most of the MDMA pills these days. Such psychoactive effects are obviously very subjective and hard to assess with certainty. The same cannot be said for the physical effects.

One thing I have noticed about most pills these days, is that no matter how "munted" I get, my pupils do not dilate as much as they used to and I definitely don't get the same difficulties with jaw clenching that I once did. In the old days when I was high on good MDMA, my pupils would dilate so much that the irises in my eyes would virtually disappear. This was a routine occurrence and there are countless tragic photos out there of me and my friends, which serve as a testament to this. For me, once the pupil dilation was in full swing, so was my night and everything was awesome. Thinking back on all my experiences over the past couple of years, I cannot remember spending any time in front of the mirror admiring how massive my pupils were and how fantastic I was also feeling. The same goes for when I am out with my friends, even those new to it all; their eyes just don't look like ours used to and the need for everyone to go out armed with ten packets of gum and even a dummy to suck on, is just long gone.

I don't think that there is any doubt that the findings in the article, when examined in the context of everyone's present personal experiences, confirms the situation well and truly.
 
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I have doubts about the accuracy of various comments above, which suggested that in the old days near pure S-MDMA was commonplace and this was the reason for why the effects were so good and the dosage comparatively low. All of the earlier methods of manufacture produced racemic MDMA and separating the two enantiomers is a difficult and time consuming process. The only purpose of doing this back then would have been to produce enantiomerically pure S-MDMA and R-MDMA for research purposes.

One well known study in relation to the effects of the S and R enantiomers of MDMA is the following:



The findings of the above study is consistent with what Shulgin has told us as well.

See also: Fallon, J. K.; Kicman, A. T.; Henry, J. A.; Milligan, P. J.; Cowan, D. A.; Hutt, A. J.; Stereospecific Analysis and Enantiomeric Disposition of 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (Ecstasy) in Humans, Clinical Chemistry, 1999, 45, 1058-1069.


Some of the comments about the lack of certain physical side effects of the R isomer above are very interesting. We have all been talking about the lack of empathy and "loved-up" euphoria missing from most of the MDMA pills these days. Such psychoactive effects are obviously very subjective and hard to assess with certainty. The same cannot be said for the physical effects.

One thing I have noticed about most pills these days, is that no matter how "munted" I get, my pupils do not dilate as much as they used to and I definitely don't get the same difficulties with jaw clenching that I once did. In the old days when I was high on good MDMA, my pupils would dilate so much that the irises in my eyes would virtually disappear. This was a routine occurrence and there are countless tragic photos out there of me and my friends, which serve as a testament to this. For me, once the pupil dilation was in full swing, so was my night and everything was awesome. Thinking back on all my experiences over the past couple of years, I cannot remember spending any time in front of the mirror admiring how massive my pupils were and how fantastic I was also feeling. The same goes for when I am out with my friends, even those new to it all; their eyes just don't look like ours used to and the need for everyone to go out armed with ten packets of gum and even a dummy to suck on, is just long gone.

I don't think that there is any doubt that the findings in the article, when examined in the context of everyone's present personal experiences, confirms the situation well and truly.

Cheers for the input Biscuit. So based on the info above, are we saying that S-MDMA (S Isomer) is the one that was used in the late 80's / early 90's and the one we're after? Or Racemic MDMA? It's a little confusing from the extract above.
 
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Cheers mister



Yep I think were onto it here. In terms of how far off the dutch stuff is from the original synth back in the late 80s i'd say we are at about N-3 (Where N is the original synth route and the negative number represents the deviations away from it)

N - Late 80s & early 90s (the stuff you see in the warehouse videos)
-1 - Late 90s. Still good stuff but just not quite as potent as the original
-2 early to mid 2000s. Again a step down from -1
-3 post drought, 2011 ish till present. Now we are another step down from -2 and the difference between the effects of the N synth and -3 are very obvious. Compare todays MDMA experience videos with the warehouse rave vids, and those pills back then were only about 60mg MDMA vs todays 200mg+. Almost a different chemical entirely judging by the experience.

To me this blows the theory of "MDMA is MDMA" right out the water.

Now if only we could get a chemist to synthesize some MDMA the original way (i.e "N").....


Completely agree with this. I got onboard with pills/MDMA in 95/96 and the older kids were already saying the doves were not as good as the doves from 91/92. (N-1)

I can also verfiy that pills did change in the late 90s when Mitzis where all over the place (N-2) and this latest synth (N-3) is nothing like my original experiences with pills. No empathy, very little euphoria...just "pinging" or monged.


I used to take halfs of pills that would of been at max. 130mg and i was having the best, euphoric, loved up times of my life. Whatever is passing as MDMA these days is not a patch on what was available before.

Sorry kids,,,,,, this is the reality........your Dad had better swedgers than you've ever had :D
 
Cheers for the input Biscuit. So based on the info above, are we saying that S-MDMA (S Isomer) is the one that was used in the late 80's / early 90's and the one we're after? Or Racemic MDMA? It's a little confusing from the extract above.
My guess would be that they were still using racemic MDMA, probably just really pure product.

And don't get me wrong, my eyes still dilate on the current MDXX pills, just not in the way that they used to and I don't believe it is solely a tolerance issue. Also, these comments were a generalisation. I have no doubt that there are some pills out there which would still produce all of the desired effects.
 
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