MDMA Chemistry/Pharmacology Thread

[SquidInSunglasses]

Why on earth would there be?

You have to convert the PMK-gly to PMK to do the synthesis to MDMA, it is quite easy, and has been known in the literature for a while.

Getting PMK from PMK-gly is actually easier than using sassafras oil

I have no idea, but it's the best explanation so far for the commonly reported complaints about the specific problems with recently produced MDMA. I'd love to have something less speculative, but we don't have sufficient information to disprove that theory available to us. I'd love to see isomer % analysis of both older and recently made MDMA to see if there is actually a difference, but as far as I know no pill testing lab will do that.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I have no idea, but it's the best explanation so far for the commonly reported complaints about the specific problems with recently produced MDMA. I'd love to have something less speculative, but we don't have sufficient information to disprove that theory available to us. I'd love to see isomer % analysis of both older and recently made MDMA to see if there is actually a difference, but as far as I know no pill testing lab will do that.

The burden of proof for a hypothesis is on the proposer.

Present documented evidence of actual mg and confirmation of MDMA and nothing else by GCMS (not just reagent).

There isn't any on e-data

the only pills with mg identified are from Zurich, Bern, Vienna -- and were reported by partysafe

 

[SquidInSunglasses]

The burden of proof for a hypothesis is on the proposer.

Present documented evidence of actual mg and confirmation of MDMA and nothing else by GCMS (not just reagent).

There isn't any on e-data

the only pills with mg identified are from Zurich, Bern, Vienna -- and were reported by partysafe

Hypotheses aren't proven, they're disproven. This one is based on a lot of reports, on here and elsewhere, that MDMA in recently produced pills produces a different subjective effect, and on the fact that the timing matches fairly closely to when police started reporting that PMK-G was being seized from clandestine MDMA labs. The main proponent is Sprout, I'm just repeating what the current best guess of the people here is.

The things that would help here are isomer ratios of old and recent pills, blind testing of different isomer ratio blends of MDMA (good luck getting that past the ethics board!), preferably with subjects who have experiences with current MDMA pills, though that is not essential given the wealth of data already available, and some kind of information on the current state of the art of MDMA production, preferably with input from actual clandestine chemists. I don't have any way of obtaining any of the above, unfortunately, so I'm restricted to speculating and sharing what others have come up with.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Hypotheses aren't proven, they're disproven. This one is based on a lot of reports, on here and elsewhere, that MDMA in recently produced pills produces a different subjective effect, and on the fact that the timing matches fairly closely to when police started reporting that PMK-G was being seized from clandestine MDMA labs. .

PMK-glycidate has been used since before 2010, there is no difference in PMK from PMK-gly vs safrole

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/front...-to-manufacture-party-pills-unodc-expert.html

 

[SquidInSunglasses]

PMK-glycidate has been used since before 2010, there is no difference in PMK from PMK-gly vs safrole

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/front...-to-manufacture-party-pills-unodc-expert.html

The only way there is a plausible effect from precursor is if it is not being used to make PMK, of course PMK from either source would be the same, because it's not a chiral molecule. One of the premises of the theory is that the PMK-G is being converted to MDMA in a way that bypasses PMK. I should note that the primary thrust of the theory is that there is a different isomer ratio in the finished product, any theory as to the cause of that is pretty much pure speculation as we don't have nearly enough knowledge as to what is going on in clandestine labs,

 

[Jabberwocky]

Completely agree, and to further the marquis potential issue, it might possibly just indicate the presence of MDA - since as far as I'm aware MDA turns marquis purple. Just an FYI, the same debate about isomers is also going on regarding MDA. To be honest I don't think we will really get an answer until we find someone with access to a lab and Chiral Column - Neither of which I have!!

The more I read into Shulgins reports about the effects of the different isomers, the more it tallys up with my experiences and hence the more convinced I am that we've found the difference with todays mass produced MDMA. I doubt the mass producers will change anything unless forced to by controlled pre-cursors etc. They'll probably just be in it for the money and as long as people are buying.....

The only problem with that hypothesis is that it doesn't match CHEMISTRY.

MDP2P from safrole or from piperonal via PMK-glycidate is the same.

There is no reasonable-yield, unconvoluted, non-dangerous process to directly synthesize MDMA from PMK-glycidate

PMK-G must be converted to PMK via hydrolysis and decarboxylation -- it is a 2 step conversion - high yield, published and well understood.

Once you have MDP2P -- you have to work hard to make a non-50/50 racemic mix (by picking catalysts that are isomer specific).

The nitro-**** plus amalgam process even eliminates the need for methylamine.

 

[Jabberwocky]

He was for a rare occasion actually asleep at 6:56am...
The science aside, discussing "chemistry with" someone and "chemistry on" them are two vastly different things - lysing my tissue with HF would be an example of the latter.

Using plane of light diffraction holds up if identifying compounds of a majority homogenous conformation. Sadly in an unknown ratio sample it is of little use: the R- conformation will direct the data in one direction whereas the S- will go the opposite way, without reliably pure compounds as a starting material (illicit drugs obviously are pretty far from such) and a solid reference database the data would be of little value. I can't and don't promise anything but if I get the chance I may run some samples through the molecular spectrophotometer I have access to when running genetics procedures.

converting the MDMA-Hcl to the freebase and then putting the freebase into solution with r-tartaric acid will precipitate out a single stereo-isomer of MDMA-tartrate (I can't remember if it will be r or s)

weighing the remaining free-base and accounting for the molecular weight of tartrate and the racemic ratio can be reasonably approximated -- old school empirical chemistry

 

[Jabberwocky]

Energy control have tested some MD which also has MDDM. Here's a quote from the guy who sent in the sample:

"This batch had an acetone smell when I opened it. EC detected MDDM so this MDMA must have been made with a synthetic precursor and not safrole. I have a feeling it may not be racemic as the high was not as euphoric as some MDMA I've had before. The comedown was not as bad either. I have heard synthetic precursors can produce MDMA with just one stereoisomer but I don't know the details. Maybe someone else can can confirm if this is possible as it may just be my tolerance messing with the report"


But then the Wikipedia entry for MDDM says its usually a leftover when MD is made from MDA using safrole as a precursor.

So which of these is right?

Umm -
MDDM is made by MDP2P and dimethylamine instead of methylamine, not because of some proposed synthetic precursor

maybe someone fucked up and used di-methylamine -- and they said fuck-it and mixed the MDDM with a little bit of MDMA

 

[steewith2ees]

Bump!


To reiterate - You can argue all you want about various PMK vs Saffrole and the various wotnots here - just keep it out of the MDMA / Pill Discussion Thread pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease

Stee - with far 2 many eeeeeeeeeeeeeeees

 

[Biscuit]

MDP2P from safrole or from piperonal via PMK-glycidate is the same.

There is no reasonable-yield, unconvoluted, non-dangerous process to directly synthesize MDMA from PMK-glycidate

PMK-G must be converted to PMK via hydrolysis and decarboxylation -- it is a 2 step conversion - high yield, published and well understood.

Once you have MDP2P -- you have to work hard to make a non-50/50 racemic mix (by picking catalysts that are isomer specific).

I know we have already had this discussion in the thread about this issue on the general MDMA forum, but anyway...

Whilst I agree with most of what you have stated above (point two I just don't know for sure), do you accept the possibility that the reductive amination step could be performed without purifying the MD-P2P first; almost like a "one-pot" type synthesis from the glycidate to MDMA, with the ketone being only briefly created during the whole process? Everything you said above is actually what I have stated earlier; what I hypothesised was that the MD-P2P was not being purified properly or at all and this was then influencing the ratio of isomers produced in the next reaction.

 

[steewith2ees]

Jesus Biscuit it sounds like your only a couple of queries away from sorting this issue once and for all.

 

[consumer]

I wish Phasedancer was still around. It would be interesting to see what he thinks about all this.

 

[Biscuit]

Jesus Biscuit it sounds like your only a couple of queries away from sorting this issue once and for all

Do I detect sarcasm in this comment? If not, my sincere apologies; if yes, then no issue taken as I can be one of the more sarcastic and cynical people around these parts these days.

Consumer - a big thank you for your ongoing support and commendations in relation to this issue; and yes, phase_dancer and I also went way back and his supreme knowledge on these issues (which trumps mine by a country mile), would have resolved this by now. I have no doubt he could have helped facilitate lab analysis where the enantiomeric ratio was able to be calculated for us, the one test which would end this saga once and for all..

 

[ClemFandango]

Nobody ever mentions MDBD.....

The Fido is boss.

 

[steewith2ees]

Do I detect sarcasm in this comment? If not, my sincere apologies; if yes, then no issue taken as I can be one of the more sarcastic and cynical people around these parts these days.

Consumer - a big thank you for your ongoing support and commendations in relation to this issue; and yes, phase_dancer and I also went way back and his supreme knowledge on these issues (which trumps mine by a country mile), would have resolved this by now. I have no doubt he could have helped facilitate lab analysis where the enantiomeric ratio was able to be calculated for us, the one test which would end this saga once and for all..

No cynicism at all Biscuit - it's just that with all the whinging about 'shit md', 'loosing the magic' 'dutch mongy crap' and why its because they have used such and such instead of so and so (any chemistry discussion just goes over my head) it just sounded from the way you dropped such a detailed post straight in that your only have a couple of more clue to solve before you finally 'crack the code' surrounding poor quality mdma, and can save the country from making any cultural progress and get all of our heads right back into the 90's so everyone's into dance music again.

I live in the past and I'm not shifting at this point. All it takes is a consistent level of bandwagon PLUR across the population so everyone else gets back on board and I'm in utopia again \o/

 

[consumer]

Do I detect sarcasm in this comment? If not, my sincere apologies; if yes, then no issue taken as I can be one of the more sarcastic and cynical people around these parts these days.

Consumer - a big thank you for your ongoing support and commendations in relation to this issue; and yes, phase_dancer and I also went way back and his supreme knowledge on these issues (which trumps mine by a country mile), would have resolved this by now. I have no doubt he could have helped facilitate lab analysis where the enantiomeric ratio was able to be calculated for us, the one test which would end this saga once and for all..

Are you still in contact with phasedancer biscuit? He was the man with this kind of question thats for sure. I imagine he is living the quiet life now.

 

[lysergamide]

Great to see this kind of discussion on BL. Think it's best this one was taken out of the MDMA thread. I think Biscuit is on it with this one. No one on a modern day hive to delve deeper into this one with like-minded folk, such as phasedancer?

Getting straight to the discussion now rather than people comparing experiences on one pill to another that they have no idea about the origins than dealer talk. I wish there was more chemistry-related discussion here, I understand the synthesis rules but it really does help keep things relevant and I feel this is reflected from posts before the RC/Mephedrone boom.

 

[ScotchMist]

The sad part of all of this, is that if/when the truth comes to light the vast majority of the world will still be left with this same sub par product.

Its been the case for years and years now, and even though there arent any official stats due to The International MDMA Quality & Quantity Department of Records being something i just made up id hazard a guess that since MDMAs return to the scene - plus, the illegal status and drop in quality of Mephedrone - more is being produced and consumed globally now than at any other point in time. Id also hazard a guess that more than a few producers are aware of the affect or lack of for that matter whether it be through personal consumption or from the cook taking a moment during a reaction browsing Bluelight and reading these posts. Itd be fair to guess he/she isnt going to go Walter White because a fly is in the lab/disused cattle shed;shit still on floor and dump the product. Because mongy or not, racemic or not, purple or black reagent or not they couldn't give a fuck because they're selling it by the tonnes.

And just every now and then a batch will arise that does the trick for whatever reason and be gone as quick as it came.

Soon enough, there wont be anyone buying mdma that has ever experienced anything but what makes up virtually the entire market and nobody will know any different other than archived records of this debate in the dusty basements of BL....

The International MDMA Quality & Quantity Department of Records put a 48 hour advisory notice on this lab in Canada. The toilet is obviously positioned where youd expect it in the lab, but come on, putting an electrical blender on the cistern with the pan open is just silly. And i cant see a single sign reminding the technicians to wash their hands without fail...

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

The sad part of all of this, is that if/when the truth comes to light the vast majority of the world will still be left with this same sub par product.

Its been the case for years and years now, and even though there arent any official stats due to The International MDMA Quality & Quantity Department of Records being something i just made up id hazard a guess that since MDMAs return to the scene - plus, the illegal status and drop in quality of Mephedrone - more is being produced and consumed globally now than at any other point in time. Id also hazard a guess that more than a few producers are aware of the affect or lack of for that matter whether it be through personal consumption or from the cook taking a moment during a reaction browsing Bluelight and reading these posts. Itd be fair to guess he/she isnt going to go Walter White because a fly is in the lab/disused cattle shed;shit still on floor and dump the product. Because mongy or not, racemic or not, purple or black reagent or not they couldn't give a fuck because they're selling it by the tonnes.

And just every now and then a batch will arise that does the trick for whatever reason and be gone as quick as it came.

Soon enough, there wont be anyone buying mdma that has ever experienced anything but what makes up virtually the entire market and nobody will know any different other than archived records of this debate in the dusty basements of BL....

The International MDMA Quality & Quantity Department of Records put a 48 hour advisory notice on this lab in Canada. The toilet is obviously positioned where youd expect it in the lab, but come on, putting an electrical blender on the cistern with the pan open is just silly. And i cant see a single sign reminding the technicians to wash their hands without fail...

That ain't no laboratory, that's a lavatory - no wonder the product is shit...

 

[ScotchMist]

Ive worked at Glaxo and AstraZeneca, so over the top. Negative pressure rooms, eye wash stations, emergency room purges, no eating in the lab and they go particularly mental about snickers for some reason about nuts...! Madness