The social justice warrior movement and its implications

[Droppersneck]

Let me preface by saying nobody wants things to go back to the way they were even 20 years ago. We have come a long way and no person or group deserves to be marginalized based on superficiality. Everybody has felt this at some point in their lives and nobody likes it.

However perhaps we have swung too far in an attempt to curtail bigotry. The University of Ottawa just banned yoga from its campus because the staff felt that the practice marginalized eastern culture; isnt in a sense by being overtly sensitive with only certain cultures saying that they are in need of extra protections and some how lesser? I digress to steer clear of politics.

Bluelight in my opinion adopted the movement and its principles probably around 2012 but did not fully put in place till the last few years. The site naturally having a hard left lean, which is understandable, almost did not have a choice to conduct itself in a logical way that put freedom of thought ahead of politics despite that freedom being a thought to be a traditional principle of the liberal.

Knowing that many here are a part of the movement what do you all think the result will be to the freedom of thought, speech, and action on the internet and IRL? Furthermore do people truly care about what is said on the internet when anonymity is involved? and if they do is that not on them? after all we do not have to do anything we do not want to..

 

[jammin83]

Seems these types hate freedom IMO.

The site naturally having a hard left lean, which is understandable, almost did not have a choice to conduct itself in a logical way that put freedom of thought ahead of politics despite that freedom being a thought to be a traditional principle of the liberal.

I am not sure I am following what you are trying to say here.

 

[tantric]

I have a fundamental problem with people who get offended on behalf of other people.

We have come a long way and no person or group deserves to be marginalized based on superficiality.

I don't understand what you mean? Superficiality how? I have no problem with marginalizing superficial people - what's the option? Do you mean 'based on superficial knowledge'? That makes sense.....but I'd rather you clarify than me put words in your mouth.

 

[Mysterie]

isn't this thread more suited to CE&P?

you brought up ottawa uni banning yoga because it is 'culturally insensitive' as a sign of the left going too far, and that this is what the culture at BL is like today. i don't think you could find anyone who considers themselves progressive to support such a call, all you achieve by adding that to your argument is to polarise and divide people.

the only way i can see this thread playing out is right vs left, 'freedom' (murica) vs peace (commies).

 

[Foreigner]

BL has a hard left lean? As opposed to what, a hard right lean? The right-wing hates drug users, wants us all imprisoned or worse. Left-wing is, by default, more inclusive. This site has a diverse user base from many different backgrounds. How do you propose they all interact peacefully under a right wing system?

I don't see the social justice movement as bad, on the whole. Some people take it too far, but we are better off with it than without it. Most of the ridiculous examples are based on tort law, not actual social justice. Universities are corporations and because everyone sues for anything these days, social justice activism makes a good smoke screen to limit speech in order to avoid legal attacks.

In the world at large, people are still bigots of all kinds. Universities aren't a good example because they are private for-profit institutions that exhibit business behaviors based on supply and demand. Every time a university gets sued because someone has been butt hurt, fewer people will apply to go to that school, or it will receive bad press and its international standing will decline.

The sad thing is that the whole debate on whether or not social justice movements are effective or necessary is, ironically, distracting people from looking at the very dark sides of society that they aim to address.

 

[-=SS=-]

BL has a hard left lean? As opposed to what, a hard right lean? The right-wing hates drug users, wants us all imprisoned or worse. Left-wing is, by default, more inclusive. This site has a diverse user base from many different backgrounds. How do you propose they all interact peacefully under a right wing system?

The left wing is more inclusive.. but it's all fake. Synthetic. Trying to force peace instead of creating the conditions to allow it to come forward on its own. Which is where we are right now with social justice warriors.. people back slapping each other and circle jerking, how humanity is just so fucking neat and keen.. unless you happen to disagree with an idea being put forward. Then holy shit does hell come forward. It's just bigotry with a different mask.

Personally I believe the right wing is actually the more inclusive and real, unfortunately it gets completely drowned out now with siren calls of racism or nazism etc. There (apparently) seems to only be one solid mass of right-wing, and if you're in it you're a dickhead.

Where will it end up? I don't really care. I hope it does crash and burn though, and inevitably I think it will.. and it will be a joyous lesson for so many people on the left when they finally realize you can't legislate or dictate around human nature. Nature always wins and humans don't control shit.

 

[JessFR]

The way i phrase it, with whatever you choose to call the phenomenon, the left, pc police, sjw's, etc is that they're highly inclusive, and respectful of other peoples opinions, provided your opinion is one of the approved positions you can have on a subject. If it's not one of the preapproved positions, then suddenly tolerance doesn't cover it. Only disagreements between the approved positions are allowed,

 

[Xorkoth]

What you describe is the "PC" movement. It came about in the 90s and got really bad then, at the time I was flabbergasted at how much I felt it was eroding our culture. I still feel the same way but I also feel it's been balanced out now by not being new and a lot of people see it for what it is. Elimination of bigotry is a wonderful goal, but banning yoga because it "marginalized" eastern cultures is a prime example of how it can also be destructive. Ie, "I feel offended by this, therefore I am going to campaign so no one can do it from now on". The idea that a non-eastern person can't participate in practices with an eastern origin is itself a problem, even its own form of bigotry.

A great example of this attitude I saw in a woman who lived down the street from me growing up. She was just a raging asshole in reality but she dressed it up in "PC"... she was a raging feminist of the destructive variety, who took every opportunity to put men down (including yelling at me if I walked by on the street, as a 13/14 year old), and constantly putting down her husband and talking about how women need to rule the world and men should be subserviant. One time (this is the example), she decided that Halloween offended her. So she campaigned at her daughter's school (my middle school, but I was already in high school then) to get it banned, and call it "ethnic diversity day" instead. Suddenly if a student dressed up for Halloween in school, they got detention, and instead they "learned" about diversity by watching some stock politically-motivated video. This typefies the PC movement... one lady got offended about something so the administration quickly did away with a time-honored tradition that kids love and look forward to. That, and it allows people to feel correct and justified in what they say and do, so long as it falls into an approved list of words or actions, even if what they are actually communicating is negative/hurtful. Basically it allows bigotry to be disguised in "acceptable" terms

You'll never be able to make sure that no one gets offended, by anything... so where do you draw the line? Will we one day be able to do nothing at all?

South park has been doing a whole season parodying/commenting on the PC movement, it's pretty awesome.

 

[Droppersneck]

Seems these types hate freedom IMO.



I am not sure I am following what you are trying to say here.

Sorry I admittedly wrote this on my phone at the pub. All I am saying is classical liberalism holds freedom of thought and speech in high regard or at least that is my understanding.

I have a fundamental problem with people who get offended on behalf of other people.



I don't understand what you mean? Superficiality how? I have no problem with marginalizing superficial people - what's the option? Do you mean 'based on superficial knowledge'? That makes sense.....but I'd rather you clarify than me put words in your mouth.

Yeah you have the right idea.

isn't this thread more suited to CE&P?

you brought up ottawa uni banning yoga because it is 'culturally insensitive' as a sign of the left going too far, and that this is what the culture at BL is like today. i don't think you could find anyone who considers themselves progressive to support such a call, all you achieve by adding that to your argument is to polarise and divide people.

the only way i can see this thread playing out is right vs left, 'freedom' (murica) vs peace (commies).

I didint want to bring in politics but it is intertwined with the discussion. That being said the right is guilty of doing the same things but the left has adopted the movement as religion.

BL has a hard left lean? As opposed to what, a hard right lean? The right-wing hates drug users, wants us all imprisoned or worse. Left-wing is, by default, more inclusive. This site has a diverse user base from many different backgrounds. How do you propose they all interact peacefully under a right wing system?

I don't see the social justice movement as bad, on the whole. Some people take it too far, but we are better off with it than without it. Most of the ridiculous examples are based on tort law, not actual social justice. Universities are corporations and because everyone sues for anything these days, social justice activism makes a good smoke screen to limit speech in order to avoid legal attacks.

In the world at large, people are still bigots of all kinds. Universities aren't a good example because they are private for-profit institutions that exhibit business behaviors based on supply and demand. Every time a university gets sued because someone has been butt hurt, fewer people will apply to go to that school, or it will receive bad press and its international standing will decline.

The sad thing is that the whole debate on whether or not social justice movements are effective or necessary is, ironically, distracting people from looking at the very dark sides of society that they aim to address.

Yeah this is why I said it was understandable that BL has a left lean. The right demonizes drug use and has a inferred hostility towards drug users. My thing is the internet is the last bastion of true free speech. People forget that you cannot have free speech without hate speech and other kinds of less desirable speech. Forgetting all IRL free speech supposedly granted by law in free countries.
Furthermore you are forgetting that the universities are not the culprits per say in most of these situations. Rather it is the student body made up of children ravaged by the helicopter parenting movement that have expectations to not be challenged by difficult ideas and for all to remain as it was in the womb.
Also there is now an industry that has built itself around the idea of being offended or marginalized with the utilization of social media and the perceived mass hysteria that ensues when a social justice event is deemed extraordinary.

 

[Bardeaux]

I feel like the "PC" or "Social Justice Warrior" terms are being applied from the outside, from opponents who want terminology to use pejoratively to describe the people they disagree with. As a lefty myself, I nor any organization or individual I've associated with have applied these terms to themselves. Many of us DO believe in social and economic justice, but the labels are becoming ridiculous. What if liberals and the left started commercializing terms like "inherently offensive" rather than "PC", or "anti-Justice Warriors" to describe those opposed to what we believe in?

 

[Xorkoth]

I believe in social and economic justice too, I just think there is a strong faction that is doing it wrong. My issue is with the attitude of "this offends me, so I have to make sure no one can do or say it". It contributes to the whitewashing of culture.

 

[-=SS=-]

South park has been doing a whole season parodying/commenting on the PC movement, it's pretty awesome.

+1. Really digging this season. The gentrification episode with historic kenny's house and shitty part of town was great :D

You want to put all your shit up on the internet and have every single person to say hooray for you. Fuck you. You're all pricks.

 

[Xorkoth]

Can you sift through all my social media replies and make sure only the ones that make me feel good get through? I need a safe space...

 

[Droppersneck]

Yes the PC principle is one of my favorite characters. I love how posters like alasdairm and bardo refuse to acknowledge the movements existence guess they don't watch South Park..

 

[Bardeaux]

my world view extends beyond south park

I didn't say it didn't exist, I said the labels are being crafted into pejorative terms, rather than terms used by the people themselves.

Just another invention of Reaganites like those on the board here

 

[Droppersneck]

So I went and had dinner with the mayor of a small town here Friday and one of his buddies worked in the Reagan White House. He told me about how he had to constantly be the go between with nancy and her fortune teller. Had me laughing pretty hard.

The movement is growing in strength but your are right. It is mostly right wing media exploiting the trash reasons of whiny cream puff college students. But with that said there is still a definite desire to curtail certain speech seemed offensive. That speech is an ever growing list. Just here on Bluelight alone there are many many things you could say even two years ago but now will be infracted for.

 

[alasdairm]

^ if you believe that free speech [(in the first amendment sense) applies on bluelight, then you display a remarkably poor/naive/whatever understanding of the concept. but your sense of entitlement (and associated hypocrisy) is noted.

"pc" and "sjw" are, for me, simply insults thrown by (typically) right-leaners to avoid discussing important issues on their merits.

s.o.p. is to label something with which you disagree as "political correctness gone mad", refuse to discuss the issue but label the author as a "sjw" and walk away as if you have 'won' the discussion.

alasdair

 

[Xorkoth]

I'm certainly no Reaganite. I just see something destructive in our culture, doesn't matter to me what the labels are, we label stuff too much anyway, as if a label can ever really describe a whole concept or a whole group of people. Call it what you will, but it's something that concerns me.

 

[Droppersneck]

I am speaking more altruistically here only using BL as a talking point and not the point itself Ali. I welcome your opinions and will not disparage them as that is the logical/pragmatic way of looking at things, but I will say there has to be some merit to the critique in the OP when pop culture has caught on and ran with it..

 

[Bardeaux]

2-3 years ago, saying the word "weed" in the lounge would get you a ban. Don't you remember?

Is it PC to find Donald Trump making fun of a kid with disabilities in bad taste or even disgusting? Is it PC to find Hilary Clinton adopting a southern accent in the south disingenuous? Who exactly is following these PC rules? I tend to see the opposite, I see "Muslim hunting permit" bumper stickers, I see more people bitching and complaining about liberalism than pretty much any other social group or idea. Is it because this behavior isn't branded with buzzwords like "PC" or "SJW" that you're not aware of just how prevalent this stuff is?

I don't think you're oppressed and I don't think you're a victim, I think this is a political maneuver to persuade people to the right. Until liberalism is cool again once there's a conservative administration, anyway.