Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[swilow]

See, that's where I don't have a problem unlike some. I can't believe how so many are crawling and almost feel they have to apologise for a vegetarian diet because it offends the majority. So what, it's not going to hurt them and only does them good to have something to think about.

Would you like other people to be vegetarian? Because I would. I know that adopting a hard-line which contains implicit shaming and guilting of opponents has a repelling effect. In this thread those who have presented unwavering and adamant views have only increased opposition to them. If you want people to adopt (or just accept) this lifestyle, smacking them over the head with it is detrimental. Being understanding and pragmatic instead of idealistic can actually change things, but insisting that you are right and they are wrong just furthers the divide and damages the cause.

I would be really cautious about adopting a hard-line. People respond badly to that. More to the point, I don't want to be associated with something that has a negative effect on animals, and I think that trying to prove your moral superiority as a vegan pushes people away from it, leading to the negative effect we wish to avoid. That is not good for the earth or animals. Monochromatic ideals become a deterrent.

This issue should be bigger then the ego. You may dislike carnivorous practise, in which case the best thing to do is try and make veganism/vegetarianism both appealing and viable; or, at least, make it seem LESS unappealing.

So its actually a really good idea to be understanding. The only reason you would shame or guilt-trip someone is if you didn't want them to be a vegetarian.

People are so afraid of social judgement, I don't get it. It's just amusing how a small minority choosing to live in a different way can rile up so many and make them feel uncomfortable.

You seem to regularly ascribe the wrong motivations to things. Avoiding social judgement is unimportant, but damaging your own good cause is. The unwavering stance you (and some others) present seems to repel people.

 

[Ninae]

I leave non-vegetarians alone, I'm just not going to let them shame or guilt me, or be apologetic to them. But when it comes to spreading things like vegeterianism idealism tend to be more effective as it can be contagious, and people usually need an emotional motivation to change the way they live.

 

[Journyman16]

@FEA - have you thought maybe the problem is 'identifying' itself? We run into trouble when we place ourselves in a category and then breach the usual boundaries of that category. e.g. I'm a ku klux klan believer... have you met my black wife? :D

Saying "I am... (anything)" is problematic because that is not all we are. We might be a truckie but do ballet, or a Democrat and believe in corporate business (think I have that right - US politics is SO confusing :D) Imagine going into a gay bar and proclaiming your gayness and then telling people you'd never have sex with a guy? Imagine their reaction - it's a fairly typical one for groups where someone comes along and claims to be a member but breaches the fundamental tenets of membership.

 

[ForEverAfter]

^Yeah, that's why I say I am but I'm not.
I don't really cling onto terms absolutely.

That's what I was saying about gay people.
I know numerous gay guys who have had sex with women in the past.
Even guys who've been married for years, and had kids. Then said they're gay.
My girlfriend's uncle came out when he was like 40-50 years old.
I used to think, "that doesn't make sense. he must be bisexual."
And argue, "otherwise, how could they have had kids?"
But, really, it's not for me to say.

I think we need to identify, regardless of whether or not those identities are perfect.
A gay guy might say he has bisexual / heterosexual tendencies, on rare occasions.
But, for the most part, he's gay.

Similarly, if somebody says they're black and they've obviously got a bit of something else in their ancestry, I don't challenge them.
Maybe they're fifteen sixteenths black, or thirty-one thirty-seconds black, but that doesn't mean they have to give you the fractions.
They're close enough to black, that it doesn't matter.

I only started eating wild game after reading, in this thread, that kangaroo consumption isn't ethically questionable... Like willow said, I think it's important to do the right thing rather than just being a fundamentalist. As I said earlier, it flat out doesn't make sense to me to have an absolute no-animal-product stance, when consumption of certain animal products does not imply mistreatment.

 

[Journyman16]

Kangaroo is YUMMY!. And the meat is excellent for us. Almost all the fat is in the tail which makes excellent soup.

OS people get upset about us culling the roos, but they are almost impossible to kill out or endanger. A female can have up to 4 joeys sitting in her pouch, all hibernating for the duration - when the rains come or they find food, she can bear them one at a time, (which is a neat biological trick if you think about it - how does she trigger 1 into growth and not the other 3?) bringing up 4 in a few months.

So when roos get at crops, there tends to be population explosions, then a die back when we harvest.

Mind you I wish I'd had a video of the missus when I first cooked her a meal of roo and she thought it great... until I told her what it was. She loves it but the initial idea of eating one... :D

 

[Boupstarnm]

In my opinion making a choice like being vegan or vegetarian is a conscious way to acknowledge and off set some of our unavoidable lifestyle choices. Like automobiles, using drugs, smoking cigarettes or being a lazy bum.

It's like saying to the universe "hey at least I've committed to something to better this place".

Plus you can have it be your thing. "I'd be an average person with nothing exceptional but I'm a vegan so now I'm different"...on some level for some people.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Idk... Since Forever hid where I said this along with a bunch of other stuff, I will say that I have nothing against vegetarians or vegans (that actually practice what they preach). I think people become vegetarian for different reasons. Sure some probably do it to feel superior against meat eaters but I would guess the majority do it for either dietary or ethical reasons, or a combination and that's fine. I think people can be healthy on a vegetarian diet, vegan I'm not so sure, but obviously people are free to eat what they want to eat. My main gripe is that some vegetarians don't go about their diet in a healthy way. If you take meat or other animal products out of your diet you still need to find how you're going to get your protein and other nutrients that you're missing. A lot of people don't seem to do this and it results in an unbalanced diet. But as I already pretty much said, people gonna eat what people gonna eat.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I've definitely met people who're way too proud of their dietary choices and bring it up, out of context, way too often.
They think people will look at them differently, knowing that they belong to a select group of people.
But they're a minority, I think, and they tend to be the fundamentalists (from my experience).
Personally, I avoid talking about it in most situations.

I remember this guy I met when I was working on a short film.
He was a vegan hippy type, with about as much meat on him as a skeleton.
I wasn't a vegan back then. Somehow the topic of honey came up, I've forgotten how...
And, as soon as he realized I was unaware that honey was an animal product, his eyes lit up.
It was like he lived for those moments... like he was blowing people's minds.
I found it a little off-putting.

In my opinion making a choice like being vegan or vegetarian is a conscious way to acknowledge and off set some of our unavoidable lifestyle choices. Like automobiles, using drugs, smoking cigarettes or being a lazy bum.

It's like saying to the universe "hey at least I've committed to something to better this place".

You have to start somewhere and not consuming animal products is a good entry position.
I don't agree that using drugs or being lazy should be included in this list.
Those acts don't cause any harm to the environment.
I intend to stop driving, altogether, at some point.
I'm going to build an eco-friendly house soon.
I'm doing what I can afford to, ATM.

It doesn't make much sense, to me, to say, "There's so much harm we're contributing, so what's the point (of reducing it)?"
We should be saying, "There's so much harm we're contributing, we've got to do everything we can do to stop it!"
It's quite possible, within our lifetimes, to transition to state of minimal harm (relative to how we're living now).
We then pass those values onto our children and, hopefully, our species survives a bit longer.

If you take meat or other animal products out of your diet you still need to find how you're going to get your protein and other nutrients that you're missing. A lot of people don't seem to do this and it results in an unbalanced diet.

Don't most non-vegetarians / non-vegans have unhealthy diets also?
I see a lot of people I know eating way too much pasta, too much meat, too much sugar.
You can't say that a vegan diet isn't healthy any more than you can that a meat-inclusive diet is healthy.
Both of them can be perfectly healthy, it's just more difficult with veganism to find a good balance initially.

Forever hid where I said this along with a bunch of other stuff

How can I hide something that you've said?

 

[nuttynutskin]

We then pass those values onto our children and, hopefully, our species survives a bit longer.

If you want a bunch of weakling kids I guess... As far as survival tho, meat eaters will definitely be at the top of the chain.

Don't most non-vegetarians / non-vegans have unhealthy diets also?
I see a lot of people I know eating way too much pasta, too much meat, too much sugar.
You can't say that a vegan diet isn't healthy any more than you can that a meat-inclusive diet is healthy.

I'm pretty sure there's a name for the type of argument you're using.

Both of them can be perfectly healthy, it's just more difficult with veganism to find a good balance initially.

I've yet to see a healthy looking vegan. Maybe it can be done, but I've never seen it.

How can I hide something that you've said?

With all the stupid NSFW tags you put on my replies.

 

[Xorkoth]

Idk... Since Forever hid where I said this along with a bunch of other stuff, I will say that I have nothing against vegetarians or vegans (that actually practice what they preach). I think people become vegetarian for different reasons. Sure some probably do it to feel superior against meat eaters but I would guess the majority do it for either dietary or ethical reasons, or a combination and that's fine. I think people can be healthy on a vegetarian diet, vegan I'm not so sure, but obviously people are free to eat what they want to eat. My main gripe is that some vegetarians don't go about their diet in a healthy way. If you take meat or other animal products out of your diet you still need to find how you're going to get your protein and other nutrients that you're missing. A lot of people don't seem to do this and it results in an unbalanced diet. But as I already pretty much said, people gonna eat what people gonna eat.

Why is it that you have a problem with someone who identifies as something and then doesn't always follow that precisely? I mean, unless that person is trying to pass judgment on people not following the same way. I've been following and participating in this thread the whole time and I haven't seen this from FEA... he's stated that he believes it's an ethical choice, but that doesn't imply judgment... it implies it's why he does it, the same as any other ethical belief that leads to a choice in anyone.

 

[ebola?]

I've yet to see a healthy looking vegan. Maybe it can be done, but I've never seen it.

Meh...I was totally fine for 7 years (actually, a training endurance athlete, having completed a couple hundred mile bike rides with 6.5k+ ft. of cumulative elevation gain). How many unhealthy vegans did you meet? Were their diets centered around pasta and fries?

If you want a bunch of weakling kids I guess... As far as survival tho, meat eaters will definitely be at the top of the chain.

Huh? "Survival" these days means delaying the onset of heart disease and cancer as much as possible. The days of other apex-predators being relevant threats are thousands of years behind us.

With all the stupid NSFW tags you put on my replies.

It's to minimize the visual footprint of off-topic squabbling, and I appreciate it.

ebola

 

[socko]

I've yet to see a healthy looking vegan. Maybe it can be done, but I've never seen it.

There are some famous professional athletes who are vegan. Seeing is believing.
source http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/going-vegan-in-the-nfl-20130123

Four months after Arian Foster tweeted that he had stopped eating meat, eggs, and all other animal foods, the Houston Texans running back was grinding out more yards on the field than nearly any other player in the NFL. By early November, he had amassed 168 carries – for 659 yards – and nine touchdowns.

Read more: http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/going-vegan-in-the-nfl-20130123#ixzz3XaH0cV7e
Follow us: @mensjournal on Twitter | MensJournal on Facebook

from http://www.greatveganathletes.com/

Alister Gardner, vegan trail runner2012 saw Alister make an impact on the international trail running world with a course record and some impressive placings at tough events. The Canadian represents his country at mountain running and is also taking on marathons.

 

[Journyman16]

I've seen some of those vegans who don't know what they are doing - worst was a couple who looked like they'd blow away in a slight breeze and they had kids that looked like they'd come from Auschwitz. I wanted to report them to DHS for cruelty to their kids. Both children were about 5 years older than they looked.

But I've seen many people on a 'normal' diet as well, usually at the opposite extreme, being so fat they can barely walk and with kids probably double the weight they should be - I wanted to report them as well.

There are definitely healthy meat diets - a roadie for the Grateful Dead ate protein and fats almost exclusive, reducing carbs as close to 0 as he could get and at 80 years old he looked maybe 45. There's a type of diet called ketogenic that is supposed to kill off cancer - the idea being healthy cells can use the ketosis products (& no, you don't do it to the extent the body is eating itself :D) while cancerous ones require sugars.

It's a matter I think of ensuring the quality of your food, and that you fuel your body with what it needs. Some things are better from plants and others are better from meats. e.g. iron from animals is much more easily absorbed than from plants. But whichever path you take, it takes knowledge and awareness to make sure everything is in proportion and nothing is lacking.

 

[Erikmen]

I've seen some of those vegans who don't know what they are doing - worst was a couple who looked like they'd blow away in a slight breeze and they had kids that looked like they'd come from Auschwitz. I wanted to report them to DHS for cruelty to their kids. Both children were about 5 years older than they looked.

It's a matter I think of ensuring the quality of your food, and that you fuel your body with what it needs. Some things are better from plants and others are better from meats. e.g. iron from animals is much more easily absorbed than from plants. But whichever path you take, it takes knowledge and awareness to make sure everything is in proportion and nothing is lacking.

With that I agree totally!

 

[methamaniac]

Wow, this thread still going strong.....
I find fruits and vegetables that look like the body part/organ they are good for very interesting.
Nothing to do with thread really,
just find it interesting.☺

 

[nuttynutskin]

With that I agree totally!

Yeah I'll second that. That's probably the most coherent post I've seen since joining this thread.

I find fruits and vegetables that look like the body part/organ they are good for very interesting.

Are you one of those guys that won't eat bananas or zucchini?

 

[methamaniac]

Are you one of those guys that won't eat bananas or zucchini?

Dang Nutskin, it ain't all about the little brain and one- eyed monster.?
Speaking of the eye and brain......
Cut a carrot in half, and it looks just like an eye;
and a walnut like a brain.
Carrots great for eyes.....
Walnuts great for brain......
More what I was getting at.

 

[turkalurk]

Would you like other people to be vegetarian? Because I would. I know that adopting a hard-line which contains implicit shaming and guilting of opponents has a repelling effect. In this thread those who have presented unwavering and adamant views have only increased opposition to them. If you want people to adopt (or just accept) this lifestyle, smacking them over the head with it is detrimental. Being understanding and pragmatic instead of idealistic can actually change things, but insisting that you are right and they are wrong just furthers the divide and damages the cause.

I would be really cautious about adopting a hard-line. People respond badly to that. More to the point, I don't want to be associated with something that has a negative effect on animals, and I think that trying to prove your moral superiority as a vegan pushes people away from it, leading to the negative effect we wish to avoid. That is not good for the earth or animals. Monochromatic ideals become a deterrent.

This issue should be bigger then the ego. You may dislike carnivorous practise, in which case the best thing to do is try and make veganism/vegetarianism both appealing and viable; or, at least, make it seem LESS unappealing.

So its actually a really good idea to be understanding. The only reason you would shame or guilt-trip someone is if you didn't want them to be a vegetarian.



You seem to regularly ascribe the wrong motivations to things. Avoiding social judgement is unimportant, but damaging your own good cause is. The unwavering stance you (and some others) present seems to repel people.

Amen. I think I may be getting through to some of you people, because this has pretty much been my stance from day one.

 

[swilow]

^Ok as much as I like you agreeing with me I can't recall you saying anything similar to that...

 

[Erikmen]

The problem with these vegans start when children start to lose weight and doctors ask, what are you doing?
It happened to my neighbor. She looks sick and her children too.