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Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

turkalurk said:
Or, because I mispelled the word invasive. It depends on how you look at it. Maybe, all this is because you decided to write a thread condusive to ethical gloating about food choices.
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Though ethical gloating has gone on in this thread at various times, I haven't seen willow behaving that way. He wrote a thread wanting to start a discussion about the ethics of veganism and vegetarianism. The desire to discuss this topic does not equal gloating about it. It's not his fault, or any other vegan's fault, that some people try to assert moral superiority in discussing these kinds of topics.
 
Believe it or not, I love animals. The way see it, the more chickens and cows we eat, the more chickens and cows can live. For vegetarianism as a code of ethics to work, the large population of farm animals will have to be eliminated or their population growth restricted. Therefore. by advocating a vegan diet as an ethical decision, you are, in fact, advocating a policy that would prohibit the lives of future animals. You are implying that the food we eat ought not to exist, then to live a life in which they are eaten by humans.

As a personal food preference, you are merely expressing your personal appreciation for animals and your desire to making considerate choices. When it becomes a moral duty, then you seek to eliminate variety. Variety is a good thing. The more variety we have in our food choices, the more resources we have available to utilize. If we become too dependent on one food source, then we can exhaust that food source.

I like the idea of finding a healthy compromise. I appreciate your preference of eating food, but I am also thankful for the predator's role in an ecosystem. I think its time to get back in touch with that aspect of my nature and be willing to kill and gut an animal that I intend to consume.

Still on the fence about it really. I think I might feel worse for taking a life that lives wild and free. To take life that would be alive without our intervention anyway. I think I would rather eat something that was killed for the reason it was bred for; a life that would not exist otherwise. I feel more comfortable buying meat that's already dead(regardless of where it came from) than killing a wild animal.
 
murphythecat said:
meat eaters are the racist one thinking its okay to kill and create suffering in a ''different'' species (animals) just like racist convinced themselves that black were inferior to white and so it was okay to use them, make them slave and create suffering to them.
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They viewed blacks as a kind of animals. But just because someone comes accross more animal-like doesn't mean they don't suffer or it's fine to make them suffer. Most will argue humans are a form of animals, too, yet we have all these human rights that makes us priviliged from other animals.
 
Xorkoth said:
Though ethical gloating has gone on in this thread at various times, I haven't seen willow behaving that way. He wrote a thread wanting to start a discussion about the ethics of veganism and vegetarianism. The desire to discuss this topic does not equal gloating about it. It's not his fault, or any other vegan's fault, that some people try to assert moral superiority in discussing these kinds of topics.
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I never said it was his fault any more than mine or anyone elses. I am just making an observation that many people have played a role in the causal chain of discussion. Nothing is usually one person's fault. We are all acountable and responsible in our role. I fully acknowledge my role. I am satisfied with who I am and the role that I play in Life.
 
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very interesting post and Id agree that its a interesting point of view.
still, we dont create chicken to offer them a good life, we raise them in terrible conditions, some live all thier life with terrible disease, feed them like crazy and then we kill them. all this chain, if avoided, would be better. I dont think chicken would mind not having those terrible living conditions.
I also agree that taking a life of a animal in wildness is terrible imo. so sad to kill a happy animal when we could just eat something else and let them live. what im most concern is not just the suffering in the animal we kill, but the suffering that create in the one who kills. its very bad for a human to kill another being. the intention to kill is one that should be avoided at all cost.

the meat we eat has nothing to do with our predator role anymore.

turkalurk said:
Believe it or not, I love animals. The way see it, the more chickens and cows we eat, the more chickens and cows can live. For vegetarianism as a code of ethics to work, the large population of farm animals will have to be eliminated or their population growth restricted. Therefore. by advocating a vegan diet as an ethical decision, you are, in fact, advocating a policy that would prohibit the lives of future animals. You are implying that the food we eat ought not to exist, then to live a life in which they are eaten by humans.

As a personal food preference, you are merely expressing your personal appreciation for animals and your desire to making considerate choices. When it becomes a moral duty, then you seek to eliminate variety. Variety is a good thing. The more variety we have in our food choices, the more resources we have available to utilize. If we become too dependent on one food source, then we can exhaust that food source.

I like the idea of finding a healthy compromise. I appreciate your preference of eating food, but I am also thankful for the predator's role in an ecosystem. I think its time to get back in touch with that aspect of my nature and be willing to kill and gut an animal that I intend to consume.

Still on the fence about it really. I think I might feel worse for taking a life that lives wild and free. To take life that would be alive without our intervention anyway. I think I would rather eat something that was killed for the reason it was bred for; a life that would not exist otherwise. I feel more comfortable buying meat that's already dead(regardless of where it came from) than killing a wild animal.
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If there was more of an option buy free range chickens I would. I do wish that we didn't value mass production over fairness and quality. I do think we have a responsibility to provide a quality life for the conscious organisms we create. We ought to create a life that we can at least imagine is worth living.
 
If you don't want to give up flesh, why not transfer to just fish? Fish don't have much of a nervous system and don't feel much suffering. And high-quality deep-fried fish is a good meat-substitute.
 
at the very least
but its not gonna happen as people want cheap meat. the only way is to at least stop buying the super market meat.
turkalurk said:
If there was more of an option buy free range chickens I would. I do wish that we didn't value mass production over fairness and quality. I do think we have a responsibility to provide a quality life for the conscious organisms we create. We ought to create a life that we can at least imagine is worth living.
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its been shown that fish can definitely experience pain and the way the fish are raised is as terrible if not worst. fish are sick in small bassin overpopulated.
Ninae said:
If you don't want to give up flesh, why not transfer to just fish? Fish don't have much of a nervous system and don't feel much suffering. And high-quality deep-fried fish is a good meat-substitute.
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Ninae said:
But fish don't have much consciousness compared to cows and sheep.
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I don't buy this theory. They die just like we drown.
Bring a meal specialist and see how many arguments the industry has about killing cows. Not that I believe in it but I don't agree with you ideas of .. No no fish don't suffer. Not true.

If consciousness is the thing that "makes it easy" for the fish, one might suggest to sedate the cows..
 
It has been suggested by some great spiritual teachers who wanted to reduce the suffering of animals. Killing a fish is on the level of killing a rodent, anyway.
 
One Thousand Words said:
Are you allowed to eat brain damaged cows with the mental capacity of an intelligent fish?
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Interesting point. As I had just mentioned what if the cows are sedated? No conscious, ok! And the cow that dies, ok too. In Cuba they accidentally " hit" the cows so you are allowed to eat them.
Choose your mentor that is IMO.
Interesting theories about fish and their lack of suffering.. Specially because it was decided by a spiritual guide..
 
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Ninae said:
It has been suggested by some great spiritual teachers who wanted to reduce the suffering of animals. Killing a fish is on the level of killing a rodent, anyway.
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Not long ago they used to say that about black people or Jews..
It makes it all easier.
 
I think fish experience some discomfort but not the gruesome pain that mammals do. Their eyes are really cold. A mice probably experiences much more pain.
 
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