Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[ebola?]

can i bring up the underpaid immigrant/minority workers who pick vegetables/fruit? the meat industry is much kinder to it's workers than plant farming
veganism is almost classist/racist imo, if only by systems larger than the consumer

Ummm...Animals eat mostly feed that we farm. Due to the caloric inefficiency I was talking about, consuming meat will involve proportionally more exploitation of agricultural workers. Besides, work in slaughterhouses or other stages of industrial farming isn't too pleasant either (IIRC, Fast Food Nation has a chapter that details this well).

ebola

 

[Abject]

Ummm...Animals eat mostly feed that we farm. Due to the caloric inefficiency I was talking about, consuming meat will involve proportionally more exploitation of agricultural workers. Besides, work in slaughterhouses or other stages of industrial farming isn't too pleasant either (IIRC, Fast Food Nation has a chapter that details this well).

ebola

I never said the work was pleasant, I said it paid better than workers that pick fruit/vegetables.
Getting grain is all done with man-driven machinery, not manpower itself, unlike fruit.

If people who pick produce are predominately minorities, and the whole field is underpaid, what does it take for something to be racist?
Unless you can explain how it's not racist, buying more of that produce and less from other industries is indeed supporting a racist system.
-
Just like healthcare is sexist, not because the disabled hate women but because the field is made up primarily of women and the entire industry is underpaid.
People don't choose to become disabled and create a higher demand for that industry, though.
Understand what I'm saying a bit clearer now?

 

[What 23]

I heard about quinoa as well (speaking of conditions for peoples) some years back... It was making life hard for people who normally ate it, increasing demand or something-I forget. And all the vegans/vegetarians/foodies were driving it. I ate it daily, almost exclusively, for some time... Until my skin started turning blue and I almost fainted driving. That was when I found hemp seeds, and felt absolutely great eating them.

 

[turkalurk]

OT - snipe is a type of bird - I think there's a number of differing ones. But being told to hunt snipe is a different thing, it's a hunt for the impossible, sometimes used on noobs in a job and sometimes just to get someone to go away. (Hey apprentice, go get me a left hand screwdriver! :D)

Smelling pistakes can be annoying when there are many of them. Everyone typos once in a while and that's what spell check is for. Worse are grammar mistakes because they can alter the whole meaning of a phrase or sentence. But online, mentioning them tends to get wild accusations of 'grammar nazi' or worse. I am unsure why people think it is OK not to be able to properly use their language (ESL folk aside ) but it seems to bring virulent reactions. I'd put it down to bad teaching where students got chastised for incorrect spelling etc. but to be honest, schools just aren't that particular anymore and I doubt more than maybe 10% of teachers would pass an 8th grade (form 3) spelling test in my day.

Interestingly if we read through this thread we can see similar reactions from both sides. I am unsure what it is about the modern world that makes us so ready to jump into black or white groupings, unless it is the training we get in school and society where TPTB, the MSM and the education system all try to teach us that is how to view the universe.

There is nothing wrong with being a vegetarian who eats meat occasionally, or a carnivore who takes a break for a vegan diet every now and then. If fact, if you think it through, such eating patterns are what we developed as a species on. When meat was available we would feast, because it spoiled quickly. When it wasn't we'd vegan with the best of them. :D

One worry is how bad our diet appears to be compared to ancient history - there are very few ancient myths that do NOT contain tales of people who lived much longer than we do. Even the bible has 900 year olds in the early days. Noah was 600+ when he built the ark. It seems something changed and my suspicions point at grains.

Wheat, rice and corn are all staples, all unusual genetically and all came from the misty time before our carefully doctored history, but only JUST before. We might suppose early man developed them but the problems come in how such people could have bred in properties that were not present in the original species.

So were I to decide to go vegetarian, I would be looking for a diet with no grains.

And reason doesn't have to be a slave to passions, and in a truly sane wo/man, I think it would be that passions are grist for the mill of reason. :D

Proper puncuation is also part of grammar. Do you think this post is properly puncuated?

 

[ForEverAfter]

Punctuation Nazi!

 

[turkalurk]

Punctuation Nazi!

I know, right? If this was a formal platform, then there would be more formal styles of writing. I don't care how you write, as long as I can understand the gist of what you mean. All those extra seconds it takes to proofread add up. Of course, I was just making an observation, because he suggested that, not only spelling, but grammar is important as well...blah...blah...blah

 

[ForEverAfter]

Yeah, I totally agree man. What you post on forums like this shouldn't have to live up to publication standards. Unless you correct proper sentence structure during verbal conversations with drunk people, it doesn't make any sense to do it here. Sometimes (rarely, these days) I'm totally fucked off my head while posting on Bluelight... though, even when I'm not, I don't expect to have to conform to anybody else's formatting standards. There are a lot of Bluelighters that have developed their own distinct style, sometimes blending poetry with prose or omitting punctuation all together... It's all good, as long as it can be reasonably understood (IMO)...

 

[swilow]

All this because what23 wrote *invasive. :D

If people who pick produce are predominately minorities, and the whole field is underpaid, what does it take for something to be racist?
Unless you can explain how it's not racist, buying more of that produce and less from other industries is indeed supporting a racist system.

I feel like this is one of the more absurd things said in this thread. I should point out, I'm Australian, so exist in a different context to what you are describing (I think). I simply do not know what you mean though. Are you saying that buying produce is racist because it creates and sustains an underclass of workers or do you mean it is a positive racial bias for vegans to purchase from migrants? "Immigrant" and "Minority workers" are not races. They are usually of broadly mixed origin. But you are correct in describing the way wealthy countries often exploit other ethnic groups and it could be seen as discriminatory at least.

I don't know if you have any evidence that meat workers are treated better then produce workers, but I would be interested in that. Even if that is the case, is it really vegans responsible for creating this situation or is the billions of other humans who also eat vegetables as well as meat? I would have to say the latter, through weight of numbers. By your logic, it would seem that the overwhelming majority of omnivores are creating this class divide and not only vegans, but I just think the notion is unfounded. We are talking about capitalism now (of which I am hugely sceptical) that results in people working hard and getting paid nothing and this is seen globally in many industries. This is not saying it is okay or acceptable, just that it is really not connected to veganism.

 

[turkalurk]

All this because what23 wrote *invasive.

Or, because I mispelled the word invasive. It depends on how you look at it. Maybe, all this is because you decided to write a thread condusive to ethical gloating about food choices.

 

[Ninae]

I think meat is delicious and will continue to devour varying species of the world's animals. If I wanted to get more ethical with my food choices, I'd start hunting deer and wild overpopulated/envasive game, before I'd go vegetarian!

This is what tends to come out when someone has used up all their justifications. It's not so hard to understand why someoen would prefer to keep eating meat but does it being delicious really justify it?

 

[Ninae]

veganism is almost classist/racist imo, if only by systems larger than the consumer

Veganism is a lifestyle lived to support other species so it's closer to the opposite of racism. Though there is a form of divide between vegans/vegetarians and meat-eaters but it's mostly meat-eaters who are freaked out by the strangeness of it and what they can see as an implied criticism towards themselves.

So many seem to have an instinct to establish themselves as superior as possible. Although my doctor didn't react that way when I quit eating meat, he said "It's very healthy what you're doing". But people just exaggerrate the perceived judgement from vegetarians who tend to be cool about it as, after all, most eat meat and there's nothing you can do about it. It's not like I even bother commenting about it in normal life but a discussion like this is a bit different.

 

[Erikmen]

I don't think people are "freaked out" by strangeness. Exaggerating does not make your point any more valid.
I do agree with Abject though, vegans are a minority and a lit elitist imo, to say the least.

 

[Ninae]

I was freaked out by vegetarians before I began to consider it as an option. It was all I had ever known.

 

[Erikmen]

Of course you were Ninae, as you also claim to be from a superior kingdom of Angels. I'm talking about people in general. I don't think vegetarians are strange, just different maybe.

 

[Ninae]

What are you trying to bait me for? I'm not interested in arguing with you and it's getting annoying. You took something I said the wrong way and now you can't get over it.

I said I was freaked out as I became a vegetarian as a teenager and it's normal for kids to be freaked out when they're confronted with lifestyles that are very different from what they've always known.

 

[Erikmen]

Neither am I. Yes kids don't like to be confronted with different lifestyle like vegetarians and some of them don't even want to try because they are not familiar with the routine.

 

[turkalurk]

This is what tends to come out when someone has used up all their justifications. It's not so hard to understand why someoen would prefer to keep eating meat but does it being delicious really justify it?

I wasn't aware that it is necessary to justify my natural Human diet.

 

[Erikmen]

Of course turkalurk!
I really don't think you have to.

 

[Ninae]

Actually my sister has two young daughters who are being raised mostly vegetarian. Or, their dad eats meat so they can choose, and they do like meat, but my sister makes most of the food, and they're free to decide for themselves when they grow up.

But the idea that you can't sustain yourself on vegetarian food will be hilarious to them. It's interesting, but we're getting a few kids like that now. It shows just one person's initative can create some changes.

 

[murphythecat]

we cannot argue like that. we can only look at one situation at a time. nobody is saying that eating veggies and fruit is perfectly without consequence. I care about the million of animal we kill every year, how it affect the environments and how much suffering those animals endure for our own benefit.

about the racist, very interesting. meat eaters are the racist one thinking its okay to kill and create suffering in a ''different'' species (animals) just like racist convinced themselves that black were inferior to white and so it was okay to use them, make them slave and create suffering to them.

lol page 40
can i bring up the underpaid immigrant/minority workers who pick vegetables/fruit? the meat industry is much kinder to it's workers than plant farming
veganism is almost classist/racist imo, if only by systems larger than the consumer