Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[-=SS=-]

Nobody on the meat side has yet provided a reasonable explanation as to why it is okay to contribute to the enslavement and suffering of animals, excluding specific situations in which meat is required in order to sustain local populations... We don't need it, so - considering the realities of where it comes from - we shouldn't consume it.

We don't need any of the technological gadgets that we utilize on a daily basis like mobiles, laptops, and so forth.. they don't actually contribute physically to our survival, least not directly in the same way food does. And yet.. all the precious metals, tin, and other bits and bobs within our gadgets come to us largely via the exploitation, enslavement and suffering, of other human beings in Africa and the East. All the corporations know this full well but do nothing about it, because profit. Especially Apple. Fuck Apple and Steve Jobs, stupid cunt thank god you and your retarded face are dead.

By your logic we shouldn't buy any of these goods.

 

[ForEverAfter]

There are certainly problems with many industries, but I don't think it's the same.
You can chose eco-friendly beauty products and eco-friendly technological devices.
There are no eco-friendly farmed meats, in my opinion.

What I'm objecting to is like a prolonged holocaust. The conditions and the realities are so horrific, and so widespread, that it is awful to contribute to it in order to satisfy your taste-buds and/or enable a lazy lifestyle... Humans are treated better than animals, generally.

There are very lowly paid workers in many parts of the world, but I generally educate myself about companies that I deal with and avoid - as much as I can - contributing to those problems by consuming those products. This requires a bit of work, admittedly, but not that much.

I don't see how you can negate one wrong, with another one.
Should we contribute to companies that cause animals to suffer? No.
Should we contribute to companies that cause humans to suffer? No.
Is the suffering equal, regardless of species? No.

According to the logic that you're proposing (not me): if we think murder is wrong, we must also think theft is wrong... and there must be a zero tolerance policy towards both, regardless of the severity of the act.

 

[LuGoJ]

There are certainly problems with many industries, but I don't think it's the same.
You can chose eco-friendly beauty products and eco-friendly technological devices.
There are no eco-friendly farmed meats, in my opinion.

What I'm objecting to is like a prolonged holocaust. The conditions and the realities are so horrific, and so widespread, that it is awful to contribute to it in order to satisfy your taste-buds and/or enable a lazy lifestyle... Humans are treated better than animals, generally.

There are very lowly paid workers in many parts of the world, but I generally educate myself about companies that I deal with and avoid - as much as I can - contributing to those problems by consuming those products. This requires a bit of work, admittedly, but not that much.

I don't see how you can negate one wrong, with another one.
Should we contribute to companies that cause animals to suffer? No.
Should we contribute to companies that cause humans to suffer? No.
Is the suffering equal, regardless of species? No.

According to the logic that you're proposing (not me): if we think murder is wrong, we must also think theft is wrong... and there must be a zero tolerance policy towards both, regardless of the severity of the act.

It seems for you, the issue is more about animals treatment during their life, rather than the actual act of killing and eating it. Just curious, how do you feel about a farmer raising his own free roaming chickens on many acres, and then a quick decapitation? Do you put that at the same level as factory farming etc? Just curious as I have family in europe that are farmers and see how they treat their animals.

 

[ForEverAfter]

My aim is to move to the country in about 3-5 years on a property designed to be self-sustaining.
My girlfriend wants to have chickens, but I'm not totally comfortable with it.
I've given it a lot of thought and I'm still struggling to settle on the pro side.
I have much less problem with animals being treated relatively well, sure.
But I don't approve of the harvesting of eggs.

If you raised chickens and treated them like pets and then ate them, that would be okay... but tricking them into laying and sitting on top of unfertilized eggs, so you can widen your menu is still a bit off (IMO). It doesn't feel right, no matter how I think about it.

In the end, it will be my girlfriend's property also. So, she can do what she wants.
Although I don't want to be around chickens that are being used to produce eggs, I can tolerate that much "suffering".
If she wanted to raise a large number of cattle in a small space (as many as possible, per acre) and cost-efficiently slaughter them and sell the meat to people, who are removed from the reality of the situation, then I'd have a problem with that... Raising sheep and cows, with as much love and respect as you'd give your cat / dog, on the other hand, then personally slaughtering them and eating them: I don't see a problem with that, at all... Like I said, I don't think killing for meat is wrong. (Killing for justice is wrong, though.) Having said that, I don't think me or my girlfriend would actually be capable of killing an animal we know personally. It would be a terribly unsatisfying meal, knowing that it cost the life of a creature that we loved... How can you put a price on a beautiful animal, unless you're seriously detached from it's beauty?

 

[socko]

....
My girlfriend wants to have chickens, but I'm not totally comfortable with it.
...
But I don't approve of the harvesting of eggs.

If you raised chickens and treated them like pets and then ate them, that would be okay... but tricking them into laying and sitting on top of unfertilized eggs, .... It doesn't feel right, no matter how I think about it.

The part I bolded, do you really believe that? Do you believe that chickens are tricked into laying eggs? And that they are somehow fooled into sitting atop unfertilized eggs?

I have no idea on your background, but it sounds like you have never seen a live chicken in your life.

For free-range chickens, you treat them like pets. It is no different from having a pet cat or dog. Treat her well and she will be happy. Treat her mean, and she will suffer and probably run away. You and your girl friend will have a few on the farm in a few years and give them names. They might follow you around the yard and eat out of your hand. For them, laying eggs is like taking a dump. There is no stress or trauma, they do it naturally, and they look a little relieved after they're finished.

When she's mature at around the age of 6 months, a female chicken (hen) lays an egg about once a day. She does this naturally and on her own. If she's free range ( runs around loose in the yard ), when she feels the urge, she will find a quiet place under a bush or in the grass or in her nest and sit for a little while, drop an egg. It usually only takes 15 minutes or so. Then get up and go about the rest of her day normally. At night, she will fly up in a tree to sleep. If it's cold, you will need a shelter for her. That's all there is to it. There is no suffering or trickery involved. If the egg is fertilized, she might make a nest and incubate the eggs for 3 weeks until they hatch.

I have kept my own chickens for eggs when I could. When I live in the city and can't do that, the Egg Man delivers free-range eggs to my door every week. He wears a white delivery man's uniform complete with a white hat and bow tie. When I first subscribed to the delivery service, I visited the Egg Man's farm on the edge of the city to see for myself how the chickens were treated, and they really were treated like pets.

For high-throughput factory egg laying chickens, it's a different story. That's what you get from the store. I don't buy eggs from the store.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I'm not an expert on chickens, obviously, but I have seen them kept for eggs and it rubs me the wrong way.
There is something odd about harvesting part of the reproductive cycle of another animal.
You can grow accustomed to the idea, as many are, and not see it as weird. But, it is IMO.
Chickens do sit on unfertilized eggs, as if waiting for them to hatch, by the way. Look it up.
Also: in the wild, chickens lay eggs seasonally.

By trick, I meant they don't naturally produce the number of unfertilized eggs that they do on farms and they do it all year round.

Regarding the relief you say that chickens experience when laying eggs, people say the same thing about milk: that cows like to be milked... as if there is some sort of mutually beneficial situation going on between humans and animals...

Whether or not passing rather large eggs from their relatively small bodies provides them a sense of relief (much like someone who is constipated passing a rather large nugget of compressed fecal matter) isn't dependent on our presence anyway... and they wouldn't require so much relief, if we didn't force them to ovulate all year round like we force cows on dairy farms to lactate permanently.

...the process of making and passing an egg requires so much energy and labor that in nature, wild hens lay only 10 to 15 eggs per year. The Red Jungle Fowl — the wild relatives from whom domestic layer hens are descended — lay one to two clutches of eggs annually, with 4 to 6 eggs per clutch on average. Their bodies could never sustain the physical depletion of laying the hundreds of eggs that domestic chickens have been forced to produce through genetic manipulation. It is a common misconception that chickens are always just naturally “giving” eggs, because modern egg hens have been intensively bred to lay between 250 to 300 eggs a year. But in the wild, chickens, like all birds, lay only during breeding season — primarily in the spring — and only enough eggs to assure the survival of their genes.

 

[turkalurk]

But it's no sacrifice...it's all in your mind. I just stopped and after 3 weeks I never looked back. The food people eat is shitty compared to homemade vegetarian food anyway. It's ignorance and laziness more than anything else. People are too lazy to learn how to cook and take the time to prepare their own meals. They're too lazy to study nutrition and make sure they get all they need. And what do most men eat? Cheap take-aways and junk food most of the time. Most people are severly malnourished on the kind of typical diet they cling to.

yes, I am ignorant to how to make a vegetarian diet appeal to me. I am too lazy to throw all that away without adequate motivation. If the world wants me to quit eating meat, I would meet a cute vegan chick that showed me that lifestyle so I could be in a better position to feel its feasible for me. To taste her dishes and learn recipes without having to make something for myself without a clue if I can even eat it or not. I love meat, and it would be a huge sacrifice for me to give that up. I wouldn't choose to make such sacrifices on my own accord because I am lazy partially due to my ignorance. However, I am a reasonable and compassionate person, who tries to find a healthy compromise. I try very hard not to be a push over, but who am I kinding, anyone in my personal life can easily talk me into a good cause. I just don't have many people in my life ever trying to talk me into one. Like I said, when we can grow our food from a molecular level we could simply convert into a powder that can be stored for years and used on a 3D printer to print out any food you want, then I will do my part and buy a food synthesizer.

 

[socko]

I'm not an expert on chickens, ....
Chickens do sit on unfertilized eggs, as if waiting for them to hatch, by the way. Look it up.

What do you mean 'Look it up?' I used to raise chickens, and that is rare (for mine anyway. I only had hens and not a rooster) and can be prevented. It never seems to bother the hen when it happens. If it bothers you when that happens, you can take away the eggs or move the nest. The whole point of being free range is that the hen is free to do whatever she wants and can leave the eggs if she needs to.

Also: in the wild, chickens lay eggs seasonally.
.

For wild birds, maybe, but chickens are a domesticated species. Free range chickens lay an egg almost every day. If it's an escaped flock of domesticated chickens, I would imagine it would depend on the climate and whether they are stressed.

Regarding the relief you say that chickens experience when laying eggs, people say the same thing about milk: that cows like to be milked... as if there is some sort of mutually beneficial situation going on between humans and animals... Whether or not passing rather large eggs from their relatively small bodies provides them a sense of relief (much like someone who is constipated passing a rather large nugget of compressed fecal matter) isn't dependent on our presence anyway.

On the size of the egg relative to the chicken's opening, you can get breeds of chickens that naturally lay smaller eggs compaired to body size. Factory chickens are bred to lay unnaturally large eggs in which case, I imagine the hen is very uncomfortable laying the egg.

I think milking a cow is a different story - unlike chickens with eggs, in the case of milking, they do not naturally give milk and it is only because of the interference of the farmer that they give milk their entire lives. The milk builds up and if not milked on time, the cow is in pain.

 

[turkalurk]

I'm not an expert on chickens, obviously, but I have seen them kept for eggs and it rubs me the wrong way.
There is something odd about harvesting part of the reproductive cycle of another animal.
You can grow accustomed to the idea, as many are, and not see it as weird. But, it is IMO.
Chickens do sit on unfertilized eggs, as if waiting for them to hatch, by the way. Look it up.
Also: in the wild, chickens lay eggs seasonally.

By trick, I meant they don't naturally produce the number of unfertilized eggs that they do on farms and they do it all year round.

Regarding the relief you say that chickens experience when laying eggs, people say the same thing about milk: that cows like to be milked... as if there is some sort of mutually beneficial situation going on between humans and animals... Whether or not passing rather large eggs from their relatively small bodies provides them a sense of relief (much like someone who is constipated passing a rather large nugget of compressed fecal matter) isn't dependent on our presence anyway... and they wouldn't require so much relief, if we didn't force them to ovulate all year round like we force cows on dairy farms to lactate permanently.

It is mutually beneficial. We supply them a life that they would otherwise be without, we protect them from danger and supply them with food and shelter, and in exchange when they reach a certain stage in their development, we take the life we gave them back and reutilize the resources we gave them. We eat them and supply our body and all the other little organisms that live with in us the sustenance we gave them. Whats left geta recycled back into the system. Like I said, it depends on the individual practices of those who raise the animals. The farmers that I know, treat their animals fairly. Some even love them. Its all a matter of perspective. I am not much for seeing things in black or white.

 

[ForEverAfter]

In the end, neither of us really know how the animals feel.
You say they're treated fairly on the farms that you're familiar with.
But, do they believe they are being treated fairly?

The idea of giving life and therefore having control over it is troubling.
If we spawn a human life, by cloning random anonymous genetic material, or the old fashioned way, do we own it?
Should we treat this life that we created any differently from a life that we didn't create?
Should there be double standards like that?
Until we know that it is consensual...
Until they, the chickens, have some say in the matter...
Then describing the situation as mutually beneficial isn't fair, I don't think.
Do chickens want to be egg machines? Who are you to say?

How is laying eggs daily for your entire life different from working in a sweat shop in a poverty stricken part of the world? People who work for slave wages in horrible conditions, are they involved in a mutually beneficial situation also? After all, they get money which provides them with shelter / food / and safety... What's the difference? ... It's the same logic.

 

[turkalurk]

I will say that when I ate chicken livers trying to supplement B-12 (because I was having chest pain from the supplement I tried), when I was eating the diet of hemp seeds for two years, that I felt knocked down... That with hemp seeds alone I felt like a higher vibration- I was vibrating better-- on that. Spiritually "high". And eating meat, it was like all of that spirit just left or got covered. Heavy. I don't know. Significantly lowered my vibration, and did for awhile. Days.
But this could be related to something else... Indirectly but directly related.

Supposesly hemp seeds are of the highest "vibration" foods.

My eating meat again, as a staple, was because my throat was closing on me eating plants. I got tired of it. I gave up. But now instead of being 120 lbs and worrying my family, I'm 170 and everyone tells me how good I look. + and -.

Ideally (I think, sometimes) I would stop eating... I've considered it. My finding a food source- stable sources, is like battle. Even supplements for me can be failed attempts, with my body reacting. I have considered my constant struggle as fighting a losing battle. That admitting, that submitting, and rejecting- choosing to go, gracefully, consciously, is the best way. So it is either fast, for me, or what I am doing.

have you tried soylent?

http://www.soylent.me/

 

[murphythecat]

what23, what did you eat?

I eat eggs, all sort of beans, seeds, nuts, fruits, vegetable, lentils, tofu and i havent lost any weight.

 

[ForEverAfter]

For wild birds, maybe, but chickens are a domesticated species. Free range chickens lay an egg almost every day. If it's an escaped flock of domesticated chickens, I would imagine it would depend on the climate and whether they are stressed.

How many unfertilized eggs do you think they lay in the wild? Fertilization is controlled on farms. From what I've read, it seems like a single wild rooster is capable of fertilizing a week's worth of eggs in a single encounter and is capable of fertilizing the eggs of dozens of hens, indefinitely... We've bred and conditioned these birds to lay eggs constantly, so you could argue that laying fertilized eggs constantly isn't much of an improvement in terms of the stress it puts on their bodies... And you're right. We can't really reverse that. But, at least, they'd be creating life rather than being tricked into thinking that they're producing life, so we can have something to eat with our fried pig meat...

 

[turkalurk]

In the end, neither of us really know how the animals feel.
You say they're treated fairly on the farms that you're familiar with.
But, do they believe they are being treated fairly?

The idea of giving life and therefore having control over it is troubling.
If we spawn a human life, by cloning random anonymous genetic material, or the old fashioned way, do we own it?
Should we treat this life that we created any differently from a life that we didn't create?
Should there be double standards like that?
Until we know that it is consensual...
Until they, the chickens, have some say in the matter...
Then describing the situation as mutually beneficial isn't fair, I don't think.
Do chickens want to be egg machines? Who are you to say?

How is laying eggs daily for your entire life different from working in a sweat shop in a poverty stricken part of the world? People who work for slave wages in horrible conditions, are they involved in a mutually beneficial situation also? After all, they get money which provides them with shelter / food / and safety... What's the difference? ... It's the same logic.

I have worked for minumum wage in a factory. I was grateful to have an opportunity to earn something in a time when I had nothing. I am all for revolution, but change is a gradual thing on a human scale. All this devastation to come will be worth it in the long run if these stages in our human development lead to capabalities to save life from extinction and spread it across the galaxy. Or develop a kind of intelligence that doesn't occur naturally without the help of an organic intelligent designer. We could someday synthesize entire universes and possibly be able to observe them. We might find we are already living in a simulated universe. This is the world we were born into, and I am grateful to be here. I look at the big picture and am awed by its brilliant beauty. If we are meant to outgrow our primitive ways, then we will in due time.

 

[socko]

In the end, neither of us really know how the animals feel.
You say they're treated fairly on the farms that you're familiar with.
But, do they believe they are being treated fairly?
....
How is laying eggs daily for your entire life different from working in a sweat shop in a poverty stricken part of the world? People who work for slave wages in horrible conditions, are they involved in a mutually beneficial situation also? After all, they get money which provides them with shelter / food / and safety... What's the difference? ... It's the same logic.

Fairness is a relative term. I believe a free range egg hen that has responsible people to care for her has a much more fair life than somebody born into 3rd world poverty. She can eat as much as she wants when she wants. She is free to go in the yard or in her shelter or roost in a tree.
Anyway, they are very different situations. A slave in a sweatshop is confined and works the entire day and every minute of their life is controlled. An egg laying hen that you raise in your yard spends around 15 minutes of the day working for you, and the rest of the day, she's free and on her own. In a way, that's a better life than most human 9-5 workers.

How many unfertilized eggs do you think they lay in the wild? Fertilization is controlled on farms. From what I've read, it seems like a single wild rooster is capable of fertilizing a week's worth of eggs in a single encounter and is capable of fertilizing the eggs of dozens of hens, indefinitely... We've bred and conditioned these birds to lay eggs constantly, so you could argue that laying fertilized eggs constantly isn't much of an improvement in terms of the stress it puts on their bodies... And you're right. We can't really reverse that. But, at least, they'd be creating life rather than being tricked into thinking that they're producing life, so we can have something to eat with our fried pig meat....

I disagree with your use of the phrase 'tricked into thinking that they're producing life.' I don't think they lay an egg expecting to produce a life any more than a drunk school girl expects to be a mother when she has unprotected sex on Prom Night.

As for the number of eggs layed, there are breeds of chickens that lay eggs less frequently. So if you had a hen that laid an egg 3 times a week and it took her 15 minutes each time, and the eggs are relatively small compared to her body parts, she'd have a very relaxed and stress-free life.

If you have never done it, you might actually enjoy visiting somebody who has a few pet chickens for eggs. Even if it bother you, at least you'll be able to see first hand what your girlfriend is talking about.

With free range chickens, you can create a good environment for them, and you don't have to get a breed of chicken that cranks out 3 jumbo eggs a day.

I want to point out that a hen doesn't need a rooster to lay an egg. The hen will lay eggs on her own even if she's never been any where near a rooster. It's the opposite for milking cows. Generally, they need to have had a calf first, and then they will produce milk their entire lives as long as the farmer keeps milking them.

 

[turkalurk]

It's widely documented the first Christians lived as vegetarians. But most likely they would have some animals in their community which would provide them with some milk. It's not a problem when it's done on a small scale like that.

Technically, its still an assumption to say he lived at all in a literal or historical sense. All we can do is take people's word for it, and those people lived so long ago it all seems irrelevant to me. I'd like to think if he did live a historical life, he was no different than Buddha or krishna, and represents our potential become in tune with the worldly spirit of empathy and compassion. We tend to glorify our spiritual leaders as gods whether they intended for us to or not.

Ultimately, for me, wisdom stands on its own whether it is spoken from the mouth of a man or god.

 

[-=SS=-]

My mother kept 2 chickens in the garden for awhile and they had such a cush life. She'd let them out every day so they could run around the garden, eating a wide variety of bugs and such, having dust baths by the base of a plum tree etc. They looked amazingly healthy, extremely spritely. I used to feed them blackberries from the hedge, and I'd take them round the garden to feed them spiders.. I'd use a bamboo cane to fish them out of the webs and feed the chickens. Absolutely loved spiders.

The quality of the eggs they produced was a reflection of their health. The colour and the taste. Om nom.

 

[Ninae]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-birds-fast-food-chain-uses-year-kept-in.html

 

[swilow]

It is mutually beneficial. We supply them a life that they would otherwise be without, we protect them from danger and supply them with food and shelter, and in exchange when they reach a certain stage in their development, we take the life we gave them back and reutilize the resources we gave them.

But this implies that animals owe us something, because we 'gave' them life. The opposite is more correct, that if you bring animals to life then you have the burden of responsibility for this state, unwanted/unasked for as it always is. It is YOU that bought this creature to life, it is therefore YOU that is responsible with providing it with a satisfactory existence. The animal owe's you nothing whatsoever. This is not a fair exchange. It is almost evil to say- look at this unwanted gift I give you, now suffer for the duration of it because you should (but can't really) appreciate this above the alternative void. That is expecting way too much from most animals and is illogical and unfair. I appreciate your sentiment, but I think this view is slightly reversed or something.

Truly not attacking you here, this is something that I hear quite commonly, that animals are in debt to us because they otherwise would not have lived. I just believe the opposite is true. I think it is the least we can do, to provide quality of life to lifeforms that we have forced to live.

The farmers that I know, treat their animals fairly. Some even love them. Its all a matter of perspective. I am not much for seeing things in black or white.

I'm sure some farmers do, but in reality, ALL should. They owe everything to their animals, their entire lives- why not make this obligatory, that if you are going to take a creatures life, that you show it some natural justice and grant it some peace and the space to breed/live out their biological imperative, at least for a while? Or at least get rid of fucking devices like sow-stalls and see them for the utterly inhuman practises they are! Their is very little to lose by doing so. I dunno if that sounds naive, because if people want to eat meat everyday, its unlikely that organic and free range farming will ever supply that quantity and factory farming will continue to be the norm.

In my opinion, this is close to evil. What has happened to this great quality of human empathy when the majority of people seem to be willing to ignore this:

I'd point out the cute timidity of the runt standing awkwardly at the back, but the system that animal is part of is unwilling to allow such an animal its natural inclination, and its weakness is unprofitable and has already doomed it. What is the fucking point of that sort of existence? I would rather die then live in pain or confined- that is not life, that is a mockery of it.

 

[LuGoJ]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-birds-fast-food-chain-uses-year-kept-in.html

I must be a sick fuck because when I got to the picture of the fried chicken, I got really really hungry. I'm not a big fan of KFC though.

Popeyes or Bojangles all the way!