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Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

So, nobody will come to an agreement partly because nobody can agree on basic definitions of what is suffering.

Ninae said:
.... It's ignorance and laziness more than anything else. People are too lazy to learn how to cook and take the time to prepare their own meals. They're too lazy to....
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There is more to it than that. I know enough about nutrition to eat well, but I absolutely cannot cook. I've tried. I've read cookbooks. I have training in the science of chemistry and do fine in the lab. But whenever I try to cook on my own, something goes horribly wrong. The other day infact, I caused a fire in my flat while reheating some bread in the microwave. I burn holes in my pots when I boil water. My rice boils over and burns.
My gf is a vegetarian. My gf NEVER let me in HER kitchen. We lived together for 3 years and she cooked all of my meals. We no longer live together, but still for the most part, I'm vegetarian.
Anyway, trying to cook on my own is how the fire with the bread happened. Lucky for me, there are 3 bakeries across the street and I can buy fresh bread the day I want it and no longer have to reheat anythign. There are several vegan and vegetarian restaurants within 100 meters of my flat, so I'm good there as well. There are some fish markets and sushi shops so I can cheat on my vegetarian diet whever I feel like I don't get enough B12 or protein. There are a dozen fruit stands on my block as well. It's expensive, but I eat well.
 
I will say that when I ate chicken livers trying to supplement B-12 (because I was having chest pain from the supplement I tried), when I was eating the diet of hemp seeds for two years, that I felt knocked down... That with hemp seeds alone I felt like a higher vibration- I was vibrating better-- on that. Spiritually "high". And eating meat, it was like all of that spirit just left or got covered. Heavy. I don't know. Significantly lowered my vibration, and did for awhile. Days.
But this could be related to something else... Indirectly but directly related.

Supposesly hemp seeds are of the highest "vibration" foods.

My eating meat again, as a staple, was because my throat was closing on me eating plants. I got tired of it. I gave up. But now instead of being 120 lbs and worrying my family, I'm 170 and everyone tells me how good I look. + and -.

Ideally (I think, sometimes) I would stop eating... I've considered it. My finding a food source- stable sources, is like battle. Even supplements for me can be failed attempts, with my body reacting. I have considered my constant struggle as fighting a losing battle. That admitting, that submitting, and rejecting- choosing to go, gracefully, consciously, is the best way. So it is either fast, for me, or what I am doing.
 
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Jesus, the lion and the lamb.
Jesus, who we eat, whose blood we drink. Who is the host. Who is the sacrifice.

Being a sacrifice in many cultures has been an honor.
And the Gods eat us. Jesus may be a vampire. Well, that's just an idea. Angels have been related with vampires... Lilith, Adam's first wife, related with vampire.

I would rather have use.
When I really think about it, I want to be eaten. It would be a great honor, to be eaten, by God. By angels. To be consumed and to be.

“Jesus said, ‘Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man.’” (7)?

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
 
Go sacrifice yourself then; otherwise: what a load of shit.

Jesus said, ‘Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man.
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Jesus spoke in parables.
 
In the developed world there's no justification for taking another life to feed your appetite for 10 minutes. Denying another being the right to live and enjoy it's own senses and experiences on this earth simply because you want to temporarily crave your hunger, is ethically indefensible.

On the B12 issue. How do you think animals obtain their B12? From the earth.

Take you daily full spectrum vegan supplement, leave the dirt on your mushrooms, live your life with empathy, enjoy your existence and let others enjoy theirs too. No need for violence and aggression against other animals just to fill your belly. Time to expand your mind.
 
What Jesus meant by that is man shouldn't be consumed by his animal nature, while if an animal learns to become more like man it's an achievment for an animal. If a lion becomes domesticated and learns to live with other creatures with love it will know a new life.

He also said "One day the lion shall lie down with the lamb". Marking the beginning of a new life for the animals on earth.

Jesus also lived as a vegetarian and so were his first followers for the first centuries before Christianity was adopted as a state religion, where it of course wasn't desirable. The first Christians were seens as crazy lunatics, however, they practiced a more pure form of Christianity.
 
"The Bible" isn't very representative of his original teachings. Constantine decided what would go in. And of course vegeterianism couldn't be part of a mass-religion who lived off meat.

The Gnostics, Cathars were vegeterians. Also the Essene community he grow up among. They were a puritan group who kept themselves apart from society and also had a great influence on how he came to be.
 
^There are some issues with getting certain vitamins from supplements (like Vitamin A) but B12 isn't one of them, and all other vitamins are present in a vegan diet... so I'm not sure how significant that is, in the context of this discussion.

I take it you don't have a source to back up your statement of Jesus being vegan/vegetarian, Ninae?
 
It's widely documented the first Christians lived as vegetarians. But most likely they would have some animals in their community which would provide them with some milk. It's not a problem when it's done on a small scale like that.
 
If you're partial to Christianity I would advice you to read about The Essenes, The Ebionties, John the Baptist's gospels, the first Gnostic Christians, and the Cathars. At least that's what Christianity means to me and the only form of Christianity that really interests me. It's just so underground, must don't know any more than the simplistic version of Christianity that we're conventionaly taught (and it's like they prefer it that way as they don't want to let go of their anti-Christian sentiments).
 
I'm pretty sure they get it from their own digestive tract.
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B12 can be obtained by consuming mineral rich soil.
Theoretically, you can get it from not washing your vegetables.
There is considerable evidence to suggest that numerous animal species do so.
While it is present in the digestive tracts of some animals, it is also consumed by herbivorous animals... So, it's quite possible that a considerable amount of B12 present in the digestive tracts of animals originates - quite literally - from the Earth, especially since carnivorous animals tend to consume herbivorous animals.

The B12 that humans "naturally" produce in their digestive tract is insufficient, nutritionally.
Everything that we need comes from the Earth, at some point.
 
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velmwend said:
I the developed world there's no justification for taking another life to feed your appetite for 10 minutes. Denying another being the right to live and enjoy it's own senses and experiences on this earth simply because you want to temporarily crave your hunger, is ethically indefensible.

On the B12 issue. How do you think animals obtain their B12? From the earth.

Take you daily full spectrum vegan supplement, leave the dirt on your mushrooms, live your life with empathy, enjoy your existence and let others enjoy theirs too. No need for violence and aggression against other animals just to fill your belly. Time to expand your mind.
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http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/animal

From the earth, like everything. Even our most vegan relatives, the gorilla, eat small insects, and grubs.

B12 is produced by bacteria that is in soil, but in certain animals these bacteria may get chances to increase in number, due to anatomy. Humans have this bacteria in their lower digestive tract... Where they can't reabsorb nutrients like B12, where herbivores have it in areas where they can absorb it.

Expand my mind? I was a vegetarian for 4 or so years. Vegan for 2 ish. I have been there.
 
ForEverAfter said:
Yes, you ought to.
And saying it's exhausting is a poor excuse.
It's not remotely difficult to seek the truth, if you want to.
It sounds like you're intentionally maintaining delusion for convenience sake... And, as I said earlier, I think that creates more problems in the long run.... Lying to yourself (whether or not it's about the meat industry, your sexuality, or how exhausting it is to live by your morals) will always interfere with your potential happiness. IMO, It is more exhausting to eat meat than it is to not do so. The exhaustion is just repressed, so you recognize it as something else. Depression, sluggishness, addiction, rage, self-harm, lack of appetite, lack of sexual appetite.
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I don't suffer from those side effects you mentioned. By all means, post some recent studies done. I am not one to just take another's opinion as is. I need to see actual numbers from a credible source. Like I said, I have seen how cows live in my area, and it don't seem too bad. Is what we do to them really worse than what a wolf would do? Like I said, its not that I don't want to change, I just have faith that we are the world and there is purpose to all this insanity. We have to go through all these primitive stages of development so our knowledge and technology can grow into something capable of unimaginable greatness. The world will progress with or without your efforts so I focus on my personal progress and those I personally come into contact with.

If I had learned the quote button, they would have quoted murphythecat, because most of what I was typing was directed at his posts. From the beggining I stated I only have a problem with people who think we should all quit eating meat and killing other species of life. That there is no excuse to take a life to eat it. I would love to live in a utopia like that, but my point is that this world isn't that simple. It is not so cut and dry. We would all like to think we know what is best for everyone, but we don't. Nobody can predict the future. Nature is unpredictable.
 
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