Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[Abject]

Yeah yeah, drop it dude Its the tone Abject adopts, the haughty schoolmaster tone. Its hard not to get a bit shitty about really....

My tone is only like that towards Ninae, so I don't know what you're getting shitty about. Ninae has been acting high and mighty, and not knowing the simple macronutriotional composition of the foods they're referencing is literally comical. How dare I make fun of someones arrogance and ignorance??
If people weren't spreading nutritional misinformation (something I've corrected you on already) I wouldn't come off as a "haughty schoolmaster"
The only reason I come off as haughty is because Ninae is so lowly, the schoolmaster really is an overstatement.
If someone was getting annoyed at x telling uneducated people 2+2=5 and they corrected them to 2+2=4, would that be a schoolmaster? Because that's essentially what's happening when meat is called salty.

Anyway, I've had enough of this thread. Busty is the only one really trying to keep this shit logical, and he'll lose interest (you might mistake this as haughty) before too long.
Enjoy your discussion guys, remember to google scientific claims.

 

[swilow]

^I think there is plenty of logic in this thread to be honest, but its not really a discussion where an absolute stance is helpful. Since when have ethics and morality been logical anyway?

Anyway, I did sound a bit more offhand then intended, but your tone was a bit arrogant. You seem to have good stuff to contribute though so whatever. I ultimately don't really mind if anyone loses interest in this topic so do what you will

 

[Ninae]

Ninae has been acting high and mighty

That could also be said about those who only show contempt for someone who tries to reduce the suffering of animals. Anyone who's interested in doing something to relieve the suffering in this world should be acknowledged for it. There's no part of science that can change that.

 

[Erikmen]

They just look like gentle animals being gentle, to me at least



I get that people wonder how far down this 'moral stance' goes; does it apply to plants, to insects, to bacteria and so on... But the opposite is not often asked; if it is, in fact, okay to kill and eat animals why is it not okay to kill and eat humans? Because I see a distinction between life-forms (as everyone else does), I think it is 'less' immoral to kill bacteria or plants as opposed to animals. I think that someone who murders a human child has done more wrong then someone who kills an animal. This is an outlook shared almost universally, that there are qualitative differences between the value of lifeforms, and that some must then be somehow less the others... I think its arbitrary, but as the apex predator, my whims are more meaningful then most.

Interesting point of view. Common sense should apply, and we can´t be radical, although we can certainly be logic.
What you mentioned above makes sense, the comparison with human makes us think about it.

 

[ForEverAfter]

That could also be said about those who only show contempt for someone who tries to reduce the suffering of animals. Anyone who's interested in doing something to relieve the suffering in this world should be acknowledged for it. There's no part of science that can change that.

Moral elitism / superiority shouldn't be promoted / advocated, in any way.
It is okay to be vegan or vegetarian, but isn't okay to impose that on anyone else.
There is no "better" choice. It depends on the person.
You cannot reduce the suffering.
You only alleviate your guilt.

...

The argument that meat is healthier is flawed.
You can have a perfectly healthy vegetarian diet.
There are different benefits, depending on which you chose.
Neither is objectively "healthier".

The argument someone proposed of nutritional content per mass is limited.
That is not the best formula to judge long-term health benefits.
I'm not arguing either way.

...

The entire question can be simplified to this (IMO):
If you're going to stress about eating animal products, it's best to be vegetarian / vegan.
If not, it doesn't make any fucking difference... There's no point stressing about it.
This is all God's plan.

 

[Ninae]

Moral elitism / superiority shouldn't be promoted / advocated, in any way.

No, but in this case it's even worse when it's reversed on you. I don't attack people for not being vegetarian, as far as I'm concerned that's their choice. But I'm not going to let anyone pretend it makes them better than me just because they can hit me in the head with a nutrition guide.

 

[Erikmen]

Actually I don´t think we need to label everything all the time.
Everyone should eat whatever it feels healthier. Besides, I believe in the old common sense that a little of everything can be quite effective.
It´s difficult to raise a child being vegetarian. They need protein and they will get it from fish, chicken or eggs.
I love all animals but have my own instincts.
This thread IMO is becoming too much philosophical. If you have kids you need to be pragmatic and make sure they grow up accordingly.
In my building there is only one yellow kid. His mother is totally vegetarian. I won´t judge her, but I have pit for her child. Everyone does.

 

[murphythecat]

Moral elitism / superiority shouldn't be promoted / advocated, in any way.
It is okay to be vegan or vegetarian, but isn't okay to impose that on anyone else.
There is no "better" choice. It depends on the person.
You cannot reduce the suffering.
You only alleviate your guilt.

...

The argument that meat is healthier is flawed.
You can have a perfectly healthy vegetarian diet.
There are different benefits, depending on which you chose.
Neither is objectively "healthier".

The argument someone proposed of nutritional content per mass is limited.
That is not the best formula to judge long-term health benefits.
I'm not arguing either way.

...

The entire question can be simplified to this (IMO):
If you're going to stress about eating animal products, it's best to be vegetarian / vegan.
If not, it doesn't make any fucking difference... There's no point stressing about it.
This is all God's plan.

yes it makes a difference. when you eat meat and buy meat, you encourage the carnage and the industry. if everyone were to stop buying meat, no more animal would be killed, ect. so yes, it makes a huge difference wether people decide to eat meat or not.

its not about allievate guilt either, its about realizing your infulence and your role in this world and that every choice you make has an impact on the world. believe me, I dont eat meat to not feel guilty, I dont eat meat because each time I eat meat, I know a animal that didnt want to die got killed and I cannot accept that.

 

[murphythecat]

Actually I don´t think we need to label everything all the time.
Everyone should eat whatever it feels healthier. Besides, I believe in the old common sense that a little of everything can be quite effective.
It´s difficult to raise a child being vegetarian. They need protein and they will get it from fish, chicken or eggs.
I love all animals but have my own instincts.
This thread IMO is becoming too much philosophical. If you have kids you need to be pragmatic and make sure they grow up accordingly.
In my building there is only one yellow kid. His mother is totally vegetarian. I won´t judge her, but I have pit for her child. Everyone does.

you can very well live and be healthy and have all the needed protein with eggs, nuts, soya, seeds ect. no need to kill a animal to feed your child.

now, its quite clear that a lot of vegetarian doesnt eat well and dont eat enough protein ect but thats there own fault.

 

[Ninae]

You can eat superfoods. Bee products like propolis and royal jelly, etc. They can give you all the nutrition you need and are much higher in nutrition than the cheap forms of meat people mostly eat.

 

[Xorkoth]

As ever, a thought out and deeply compassionate reflection from you Eric

Thank you my friend.

after some practice, you will be able to maintain mostly positive thoughts. its not very stressful I can say but ideally, its much better to not think and stay mindful only of the body. mindfulness of the thoughts is the beginning and is indeed a bit more stressful then going right to mindfulness of the body. but you have to go from replacing the unwholesome thoughts with wholesome thoughts before having any chance on keeping your mindfulness on the body ime.

so the chain is knowing your thoughts: if its positive go directly to mindfulness of the body as its much calmer.
but if you have unwholesome thoughts, replace with wholesome thoughts and then go back to mindfulness of the body.

there's many different method one can choose to replace a unwholesome thoughts, but its necessary as one realize very fast that any unwholesome thoughts creates suffering in ones mind, thats its not necessary and that one can easily think about something wholesome rather then make one think about unwholesome things

I agree with this... with practice you can shift your pattern of thoughts to mostly positive and loving, and your life will benefit from it - the world will seem brighter and positivity will reign in your mind. For me, however, responsible eating of meat does not create negative thought patterns, but rather a love and appreciation for the animal that gave it's life for me after living a peaceful life that ended in a brief moment of pain, and a source of nutrition that aids my own life's quality. In fact a domesticated cow, for example, living on a free-range pasture farm, may have less suffering in total than an animal living in the wild because it is protected and fed until the end. Our domesticated varieties of animals are no longer equipped to survive in the wild anyway, we've changed that.

Also if you can buy the scenario of eradicating possums to save an ecosystem, can you not also buy the idea of hunting deer to produce the same result (the example I gave on the last page)? I have a serious problem with trophy hunters but hunters who are just trying to eat and are also performing a needed function as the remaining predator of a species... the positives outweigh the negatives in terms of harm to nature. Something needs to kill animals or else they become too successful and destabilize ecosystems. Nature developed in this way and if we unbalance that, it's our responsibility to bring it back into balance as much as possible. It would have been wonderful if we hadn't killed or displaced all the natural predators of deer in some areas (the midwest US for example), but sadly, it's already been done.

 

[murphythecat]

about the balance in the ecosystem, this is a very interesting topic and I cannot answer with certainty as its very complexe. too complex to answer easily.

but about killing life, that I can always go back to the immorality, the injustice, the lack of compassion and empathy that brings someone to kill a animal. no animal wants to feed you, they want to live. and we kill them against their will. it is cruel, immoral and unwholesome.
yes, the animal had a nice life but he still wanted to live, was mainly happy, and in his path just like you and me. for the cow, tis not the end of the world to die, just like its not the end of the world when ill die, the problem is the one who kill that cow and the ones who buy and therefore encourage the killing out of greed and sensual desire and attachment to the good taste of meat.

 

[murphythecat]

These are not sources of protein.

ive given many example of good source of protein.
and as if people really care about their diet when they eat meat. they eat meat because everyone do it, because we love hamburgers and steak and its tasty.
if it tasted like shit, you wouldnt buy meat no matter how much protein it gives you.

 

[Xorkoth]

ive given many example of good source of protein.
and as if people really care about their diet when they eat meat. they eat meat because everyone do it, because we love hamburgers and steak and its tasty.
if it tasted like shit, you wouldnt buy meat no matter how much protein it gives you.

It's a bit silly to say that anyone who eats meat does not care about their diet. As I've said before, I tried going without meat for a good 6 months, after researching good combinations for adequate protein, and I went back to eating meat because I feel much better when I do. It would be great if I could feel good without eating meat sometimes but it does not seem that I can. So I don't feel bad about fulfilling my role as a member of an apex predator species, because I also don't support factory farming.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I dont eat meat to not feel guilty, I dont eat meat because each time I eat meat, I know a animal that didnt want to die got killed and I cannot accept that.

Same thing.

if everyone were to stop buying meat, no more animal would be killed, ect. so yes, it makes a huge difference wether people decide to eat meat or not.

But everyone is not going to stop buying meat...
Your efforts fall flat, practically / globally.
You are not saving a single life.

You should take your own advice re: Buddhism, and stop thinking.
The world will change when it changes. You can't change it.

 

[swilow]

^I think guilt is retrospective though, but I think the phrasing of the statement implies the future existence of guilt and the desire to avoid that.

For me, the kindergarten reason as I called it- the disliking of being responsible for violence to another life form- is the most emotionally compelling reason. Logically, it makes sense to try and avoid guilt if one anticipates an act will induce it. Empathy makes violence difficult and painful to oneself and, as social creatures, we have pretty powerful empathy system. I think the 'selfish' motivation behind this reason makes it 'kindergarten'.

But the act of hypocrisy itself is what I wish to be distant from because I do not like or respect the use of violence by humans upon the defenseless whilst we simultaneously describe ourselves as the ultimate outcome of evolution (don't we realise how much we malign that entire concept?). I deeply value the idea of 'innocence' and of valuelessness, a quality I see in animals (by which I mean 'innocent of the murk of morality, prior to the advent of good and evil, without the knowledge of even knowledge etc'). I think that if we wish to believe that we are the things we tell ourselves, we should protect the weak and cherish the simple instead of crushing it. We are of nature but we have simply walked out of it through our behaviour, and so I think we have no choice but to live up to our potential and follow through the choices we have made. The world is to be nurtured and valued, not just according to its utility to humanity but for its inherent value to itself, out of respect for its potential. To that end, I would like to preserve as much life to have its one single brief chance at it as possible. It makes me feel that I might be doing the actual right thing for me

I don't think we are evil or sinful, just lost. Maybe we will always be, but I'm frankly scared to give up trying to find something...

Ha

Actually I don´t think we need to label everything all the time.
Everyone should eat whatever it feels healthier. Besides, I believe in the old common sense that a little of everything can be quite effective.
It´s difficult to raise a child being vegetarian. They need protein and they will get it from fish, chicken or eggs.
I love all animals but have my own instincts.
This thread IMO is becoming too much philosophical. If you have kids you need to be pragmatic and make sure they grow up accordingly.
In my building there is only one yellow kid. His mother is totally vegetarian. I won´t judge her, but I have pit for her child. Everyone does.

A good post as you raised the idea of having vegan/vegetarian children, which I don't think was brought up prior to this.

I think you are talking about the 2 sides to this debate; the ethical side and the nutritional side. As Foreverafter said, either diet can be healthy or unhealthy. Its utterly up to the individual to use their brains. In that sense, the topic becomes purely philosphical as no objective difference can be discerned in terms of nutrition. And given that this is the philosophy forum, and the not the health section, of course the topic is going to become philosophical- and to repeat Foreveraf

I'm not sure what you mean by yellow kids either. But I don't plan to force my choices upon my future children whatever colour they are :D As I have said, this is a personal choice for me, not one that I can make for anyone else.

 

[Ninae]

The great spiritual teachers have always taught at the beginning when humanity lived in a Garden of Eden state neither humans or animals ate each other. Everyone would eat of what was growing on the Earth. It was first after a fall in consciousness the species started turning against each other.

I've always taken that for granted and don't see anything normal in the way we live now even if it feels normal and society is constructed that way. Why wouldn't a paradisical state also mean paradise for animals? The Earth doesn't just belong to us.

Jesus said "One day the lion will lie down with the lamb" but humanity has to change before the animal kingdom can change.

 

[Erikmen]

you can very well live and be healthy and have all the needed protein with eggs, nuts, soya, seeds ect. no need to kill a animal to feed your child.

now, its quite clear that a lot of vegetarian doesnt eat well and dont eat enough protein ect but thats there own fault.

I agree with you, with almost everything you´ve mentioned.
The challenge of having a vegetarian style for children is due to their strong resistance in eating beans a lot more than they should to compensate the need of protein, for example.
I know that we shouldn´t go after killing animals to get our satisfaction done. What I am saying is that is just too difficult to feed children, even harder being vegetarian.
Besides, most doctors insist they need meat in their early ages to acquire lots of iron + protein without having to eat that much..

 

[Ninae]

The challenge of having a vegetarian style for children is due to their strong resistance

This doesn't have to be a problem if you learn to prepare it right. Well-made vegetarian food is really much better than typical meals made from processd meat and many with very little meat in them anyway.

If you want to make sure they get enough protein you should first focus on dairy and make sure they get enough milk, cottage cheese (great source of animo acids), and eggs which are a prefect protein. You can sweeten the cottage cheese with some powdered sugar and mix it with fruit to make it more edible and fry the eggs with vegetables and roasted nuts like walnuts or almonds (also a source of proten) which they would love.

You can also give them vegetable-based protein from legumes, nuts, and seeds by grinding them up and mixing them into a salad so they're not so noticable or you can cook them and add them to spicy dishes. This works very well and they shouldn't like it any less than other foods.

The problem for most is they have no idea how to eat without meat when that's what they've always done. When me and my sisters stopped eating meat when we were teenagers for the first year we didn't know what to eat apart from nutroast, chili noodles, and parmesan pasta. It's just a different way of cooking that you need to learn and then you don't need to be deprived.

You can for instance boil chopped broccoli in cream with salt and pepper and it's better than most meat (certainly much better than burgers and hotdogs and more nutritious too).

 

[Erikmen]

Thank you so much for this Ninae (tusen tack!)
Definitely a great advice.