Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine Mega Thread and FAQ v17.0 + v18.0

[Lucas23]

When will suboxone allow me to sleep??? I wonder if I'm still not used to it yet. I'm on 12mg day and on day and 6 taking it now. I'm so tired. Nausea after each dose is also a huge problem. I'm still missing my methadone.

Hey Annie, not sure if anyone got back to you on this. If you're working with a sub doc you should ask for some benzos or something to help you sleep during induction. My "program" during induction included clonidine, lorazepam, and zolpidem. I needed all of them. There are many variations on this but they usually always include benzos. After a couple weeks i tapered off all of them and my sleeping has been fine during the 18 months I've been on subs.
Not sure about the nausea. I haven't had an issue with that. I was always under the impression it was specifically the nalaxone that caused the nausea, and with nalaxone having such a short half life the nausea was fleeting. But that could be urban legend.

 

[dirzted]

Ok I'm 18 years old and about 150lbs, my family friend happens to be a sub doc (my mom is an ex H addict and met him at an NA meeting, he did opiates as well) and i naturally went to see him when i got caught doing Heroin and my mom wanted to get me off the stuff.

The intention wasn't specifically to get on maintenance but more to just see what the best route would be for my WD's. Anyway, although i wasn't really even withdrawing that bad since I really hadn't been able to use much in the weeks prior (no $) and had pretty much inadvertantly put myself through a rapid sub taper (went from 4 to .5mg in two weeks) by scrounging pills off of my brother (who is also on sub maintenance), I still got put on 8mg of subs. I agreed to this because obviously I was a complete fiend at this point and had barely been using anything in the two weeks prior which made me desire something even MORE. I wasn't even very clear about how much i was using but i said that i was taking like 200mg of morphine with about .1-.2 of tar (smoked) daily. Although this was true to some extent, i definitely had not been using nearly that much for about a month before that, tbh i doubt i would've had that bad of WD's if i wasn't put on subs.

So when i got the script, i was extremely excited and proceeded to get high off of what i could, which happened to only be 4mg, the doc was very liberal in his dosing regimen and just said to have my mom somewhat monitor me, but to just see what "held" me between 2-8mg, and if that didn't do it, he said i could even take 12-16mg, but only if i was REALLY sick. So of course my tolerance immediately skyrocketed and i went back saying i needed 8mg, this faded after another month and I said i now needed to go up to 16mg.

Now I know that sounds pretty ridiculous on the doctors part, but he really is a good friend of my family and he was an addict himself and has been very kind with his non judgmental and understanding attitude towards me, he has told much of his story and taken extra time during appointments to just see how my life is going and helped get me into recovery programs. He also seems very knowledgeable on subs and knows about Reckitt's lies about how naloxone is actually effective at preventing abuse and there whole thing about child proof packaging being an "absolute NECESSITY," because of this he prescribed me the generic subutex and even takes out time to help me find pharmacies that have it for the cheapest price in my area. PLUS for the first like 3-4 visits he didn't even charge us since he understood the shit we were going through.

Still though, now that i have stabilized on my dose, and have gathered information about what other doses are typically prescribed, I find it incredible that I'm so young/ and never have been severely addicted to a substance (tolerance wasn't very high/never IV'd), yet am on a whopping 16mg. I have kind of asked him about this and he says that regardless of all that, just the fact that i'm taking subs and not illicit narcotics is all that matters, and if 16mg is what it takes to do that then so be it. I understand this point, but still think the same could be accomplished with 8mg, and now feel incredibly guilty/ashamed that i am on 16mg, that also is what contributed to me leaving my 12 step program since it alienated so many people from me and i had to take alot of shit for it (although I must say the closest friends in the group were incredibly understanding/helpful about it so I'm not here to talk shit about 12 step programs, the point I'm making is more to say that it makes it harder for me to be immersed in them because of this).

SO anyway i have talked to some people in my life about this (including multiple other doctors) and although they say they personally wouldn't have started me on that dose, that it's fine that I'm on it now and that since it's successful in keeping me off full agonist opiates (ive been clean from every other drug but bupe for 7 months now) that I shouldn't be at all ashamed of it and the biggest problem will be for tapering (they all said I should maintain on this dose for at least a year) but I should focus on my accomplishments in the present for now.

I still feel pretty shitty about this though and I'm not sure if I immediately should taper before it gets much harder to do so longer down the road, or if I should listen to the professional opinions given to me even though I cannot bring myself to agree with them.

Obviously I will take into account alot of things when making decisions about this, but I still wanted to hear your guys's thoughts since I have come to respect many of the people on this sites forums.

Thanks for reading all that I know its alot and thanks so much for any responses in advance.

 

[Jesusgreen]

I don't get the whole high dose thing myself, I've seen people jump off several gram (heroin) a day habits onto 2mg (or less, the least being as little as 0.5mg) of Buprenorphine with no trouble. When I was using Butyr-Fentanyl I got my tolerance to the point that I needed 40x the dose I needed to begin with or more, and yet I stopped, took 1mg of Buprenorphine, and not only did I not have withdrawals but I got a nice high from just that 1mg. Few days later even 0.5mg was getting me high.

I find Bupe much more effective at lower doses, taking 16mg a day for a year will put you in a state where it'll be near (if not) impossible to get off them ever. As nice as the doctor sounds, these long plans sound to me all just like: Hey I earn money for prescribing you this so the longer you're on it and the more of it you're prescribed the better. If they want you to get clean, they should have you taper down and be taking doses < 2mg so your tolerance can drop and then you'll be able to get off opiates completely with much more ease.

I'd try drop down your dose, but honestly myself I wouldn't do it slowly, I find when I drop my dose of bupe slowly my tolerance builds rather than drops and it's unpleasant, but when I drop it by a significant amount each day my tolerance drops and I can get it to 0 pretty quickly to the point where I can feel 0.25mg of Buprenorphine in my system.

I'd do something like 16mg, 14mg, 12mg, 10mg, 8mg, 6mg, 4mg - those being daily drops, the Bupe from the previous days should hold you enough that dropping down won't cause any issues, it's when you take 16mg for a week then 14mg for a week dropping to 12mg will be hard for example. All I can say is to try it and if it doesn't work for you, then go for a slow taper or stay on the dose, but seriously with how much more and more the drug builds up in your system you should be using it to taper fast rather than taking such large doses daily for a year man..

 

[somnilicious]

Hello everybody...... I have been on heroin and methadone for about 15 yrs. I stopped taking benzos and meth on New Years. I have chipped with dope since then which led to me doing a methadone taper from 30mg to 10mgs a day for the last few days. My methadone taper lasted about a week and I only had to wait 36hrs before I could take Subs. I took about 3mg and then 12hrs later I took the other 5mg of Subs. I have 8mgs left and I want to do a proper taper with minimal withdrawal. What would be the best way of using the Subs? I was thinking 3mg tomorrow,Then 2mg the next day and then 1mg for a day followed by .5mgs for two and then .25mgs for two if I can gauge my doses correctly. Would this be a good short term taper? I also have some gabapentin and could get benzos but want to avoid them because although I was never mentally addicted to benzos I did have a physical dependance at one time.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

Yeah that taper sounds fine.

 

[somnilicious]

So I am following my detox program but this evening I started feeling like I needed more Subs. I didn't want to mess with my Sub schedule so I have had a couple of drinks. I know I have already committed the act so any negatives cannot be negated but I wanted to know about other peoples experiences with combining Subs and alcohol. Please do not commence with any of the usual "if you are trying to get clean why are you drinking?" I just had a couple of drinks this evening after my morning dose of about 2-3mgs. Please just let me know of any possible interactions or misadventures.

does alcohol cause your body to metabolize Bup like methadone? Are the super hangover stories vindicated and does Suboxone block the effects of the alcohol?

 

[dirzted]

I don't get the whole high dose thing myself, I've seen people jump off several gram (heroin) a day habits onto 2mg (or less, the least being as little as 0.5mg) of Buprenorphine with no trouble. When I was using Butyr-Fentanyl I got my tolerance to the point that I needed 40x the dose I needed to begin with or more, and yet I stopped, took 1mg of Buprenorphine, and not only did I not have withdrawals but I got a nice high from just that 1mg. Few days later even 0.5mg was getting me high.

I find Bupe much more effective at lower doses, taking 16mg a day for a year will put you in a state where it'll be near (if not) impossible to get off them ever. As nice as the doctor sounds, these long plans sound to me all just like: Hey I earn money for prescribing you this so the longer you're on it and the more of it you're prescribed the better. If they want you to get clean, they should have you taper down and be taking doses < 2mg so your tolerance can drop and then you'll be able to get off opiates completely with much more ease.

I'd try drop down your dose, but honestly myself I wouldn't do it slowly, I find when I drop my dose of bupe slowly my tolerance builds rather than drops and it's unpleasant, but when I drop it by a significant amount each day my tolerance drops and I can get it to 0 pretty quickly to the point where I can feel 0.25mg of Buprenorphine in my system.

I'd do something like 16mg, 14mg, 12mg, 10mg, 8mg, 6mg, 4mg - those being daily drops, the Bupe from the previous days should hold you enough that dropping down won't cause any issues, it's when you take 16mg for a week then 14mg for a week dropping to 12mg will be hard for example. All I can say is to try it and if it doesn't work for you, then go for a slow taper or stay on the dose, but seriously with how much more and more the drug builds up in your system you should be using it to taper fast rather than taking such large doses daily for a year man..

Thanks for your response, appreciate the idea although I think slow tapers are more effective but I have yet to go through one completely so I'll definitely take that into account.

 

[Tommyboy]

@dirzted: I'm just curious where you live that you, your mom and your brother have all been addicted to heroin at some point? I couldn't really tell if you were taking the 8mg or 16mg, but my thoughts on your doctor's prescribing practices is that he's doing the whole "treat you now and worry about the rest later" which is not the best way to go about things. Yes it's great that you are not using other opiates at the moment, but at what cost in the future? If it will make it too hard to come off it the future then it's just going to make things worse in the long-run.

As for your dose, I am confident that you would find it pretty easy to drop to a dose between 4-6mg without much discomfort. What you may want to try is skipping your dose for a few days so that once you are feeling the withdrawals it will take less of the drug to make you feel well. Once stabilized at the lower dose you will likely find that you are experiencing less side effects, but in the event that it's not helping as much you can always take more again.

I'm prescribed 12mg a day n when I take that I'm as confident n as talkative as hell so I take that when there's places I need to go, like my recovery group, because I don't want to feel nervy there, but when I take 12mg for a few days I wake up each morning with an ace in my knees n the stiffness is that painful it's really hard for me to get out of the bed. So things are better taking 8-10mg.

Evey xxxx

Why did you almost have to go without it for Easter if you said you have a stockpile like a mountain from taking a lower dose on most days?

I know you said that you don't think you have a psychological addiction to the suboxone but taking the higher dose to feel confident and be talkative when going out is a sign of that so try to get that under control before you taper. Wanting to take the higher dose of the drug in order to feel positive effects from it is definitely psychological addiction at play so Idk why you think otherwise.

 

[dirzted]

@dirzted: I'm just curious where you live that you, your mom and your brother have all been addicted to heroin at some point? I couldn't really tell if you were taking the 8mg or 16mg, but my thoughts on your doctor's prescribing practices is that he's doing the whole "treat you now and worry about the rest later" which is not the best way to go about things. Yes it's great that you are not using other opiates at the moment, but at what cost in the future? If it will make it too hard to come off it the future then it's just going to make things worse in the long-run.

As for your dose, I am confident that you would find it pretty easy to drop to a dose between 4-6mg without much discomfort. What you may want to try is skipping your dose for a few days so that once you are feeling the withdrawals it will take less of the drug to make you feel well. Once stabilized at the lower dose you will likely find that you are experiencing less side effects, but in the event that it's not helping as much you can always take more again.

Lol California come to think about it that does sound pretty crazy but were from an upper middle class family so, you know how the whole rich white people suffering less societal set backs than poor people goes...
She was addicted when we were like in elementary school, we had no idea she was using and then she successfully got clean without prison time just had to go through a treatment center for "professional's" mandated by her employer (she's a general practicioner). Nonetheless, it still presented problems via divorce with my dad, which probably fucked me and my brother up somewhat, and then we both did prescription narcotics/Heroin. That's ma story! Anyway that also sounds like very useful advice thanks so much for providing it, so is this a good way to look at it?
-
Longer I'm sick=Easier dose decrease?

 

[Lucas23]

I have a basic question about Suboxone that I've researched and cannot find an answer to. Its such a simple question that maybe I'm overlooking something.

Where are the chemicals (bupe and naloxone) actually absorbed into the body when you put a Suboxone film under your tongue? Is it the cells all around your mouth including the bottom of your mouth or is it only the cells on the bottom of your tongue? Or is it all of them?

Sorry if this has been asked before. I couldn't find anything specific in my search.

 

[The Doc.]

There's two big veins that are under your tounge attached to the bottom of the tounge. Lift your tounge up and you will see.

 

[eteezy915]

I originally posted this in mdone vs bupe but wasn't getting any traffic so deleted it and moved it here, as it does pertain to bupe, hope that's ok
Try to make this quick. Live in Florida so naturally had a huge habit w blues, iv n all. MMT for two years up to 90, down to 30, followed by 3 or 4 months of bupe, tapering with it the whole time. It's actually the one kick i can't remember anything about, so i must have either tapered right or been in the right mindset, i did have a job that kept me busy and tired me out. Made it about 6 months completely clean before chipping, blah blah been shooting 2-5 8mg dillies for a couple weeks, before that it was bupe for three days w intention of short taper then slip n use (h or Ds mainly, picking up the needle really was my downfall).
Any way i took 20mg mdone 57 or so hrs ago and 20mg 48 before that. So two doses of 20mg 48hrs apart w the last one 57 hours ago, and to fill the huge gap between done n bupe i did 1 8mg D iv 30hrs after least dose of done. I was gonna tryn taper rapidly from the Ds with methadone but not sure how well that'd work so decided maybe a quick sub taper (done it once before after my bupe maint.)
Anyway (again) it's been that long since i dosed anything and i don't feel that bad, i mean my i got a lil of everything, besides sweating which is odd, but not nearly s bad as i thought which is of bc i always heard wd from Ds was fast n hard. I also have two more days off from work, should i rough it as much as possible n only take bupe or done if neccessary n if i do end up dosing which would be the better choice, I'm just looking to scrape by.
Also it couldn't still be enough mdone in me to keep me from feeling this well nearly 60 hours after one dose, if so how long would i have to wait for subs, if that's the route chosen.
I hope this makes sense and thanks (and sorry, that want quick at all)


Edit,update at 4:42am the kicks finally broke me down, for me my arms get jumpy not my legs either way it is hell when tryn to sleep as you all kno. I iv'd ten mg of done (i.know it's dumb but I'm a needle junkie, please save lectures, don't plan on doin it throughout the taper) bc i needed something to sleep n bupe usuallymakes me kinda wired. but what should i do from here, is a short done taper possible the way it is w bupe? Ive been dosing relatively small. If a done taper won't work do you think it will still take 48hrs(i know is based in level of withdrawal but do u still think it'll take that long to reach that level of withdrawal) to safley dose sub even tho it was a single small dose of done. Although i feel a bit more relaxed n hungry so the done def helped even at a small dose, so maybe i will have to wait the full time before subs or could i just taper the done? Tips n advice are much appreciated
Edit: sorry it reads so mumble mouthed, btween kpins and xanax i was in double digit mgs, not advised, but i know my tolerance after years of rx kpin

 

[Lucas23]

There's two big veins that are under your tounge attached to the bottom of the tounge. Lift your tounge up and you will see.

It's that simple, huh?

 

[The Doc.]

It's that simple, huh?

Yep it gets absorbed directly into those veins just as any other medication can be. There's a layer of mucas covering the tounge and most of the mouth which affects how much gets absorbed but if you swish some alcohol like rum or even some mouthwash like Listerine around in your mouth for a minute it makes the absorption rate go up a lot more than doing it without alcohol.

 

[Sublime947]

hey fellow BLers.

I've been on suboxone for nearly 8 months now. Subutex actually, the 54/411 pills. It has been helping me I guess, however I don't get any nice buzz from them like I used too... in fact if I don't take it in time I get runny nose withdrawals and that kinda sucks... I take around 2-4mg a day. It keeps me not craving, but I still do miss dope. Been doing nothing and haven't got a job or any friends to hang out with and to be honest I miss when I was getting high at least and having some fun..

I am prescribed 75 8mg pills a month and frankly I don't know what to do. I tell my doctor I take 2 usually a day or sometimes 2 and a half so he prescribes me 75 a month. It used to be 90.... I feel kind of guilty of getting all these pills. I have like over 100 saved in a jar right now and I don't know what to do with them. Is it illegal for me to be doing this? I was planning on slinging them but I live with good people and I don't want to cause trouble.. now I'm just stuck with a bunch of pills and over time I expect to be holding onto lot more in the future. I'm not sure if this is against the rules and I'm not trying to solicit anything here but I am just wondering what I should do. I mean getting more of something in my addict brain is better ain't it? I got 32mg a day when I first started.... and I'm pretty sure my doctor doesn't know that more is less with sub... but he's a good guy. would love some advice here.

 

[Eveleivibe]

Hiya Sublime947,

Not sure either as most countries are different. I've also kept a load of subs as I was trying to take a smaller dose and I don't want to ask the doctor to reduce until I now that I am ready so for me, it's a safety precaution.

As I am unsure of your country, I cannot answer if it's illegal or not but if I remember correctly, we're not allowed to answer legal questions (I will have to look at the BLUA again n check). If you feel that you are on too much, however, and you're concerned about keeping them, can you not ask the doctor to reduce you further?

You say you're still missing n craving dope, right?! One maybe you're not on the right dose of subs but also, have you got anything else into place to tackle your addiction? For instance, counselling, NA, rehab?

Subs is a very good tool in dealing with addiction but like a house cannot be built with bricks alone or it will surely stumble n cruble thus if we rely on subs alone.

I hope this helps. There'll be others around soon to advise you too.

Take care,
Evey xxxx

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

hey fellow BLers.

I've been on suboxone for nearly 8 months now. Subutex actually, the 54/411 pills. It has been helping me I guess, however I don't get any nice buzz from them like I used too... in fact if I don't take it in time I get runny nose withdrawals and that kinda sucks... I take around 2-4mg a day. It keeps me not craving, but I still do miss dope. Been doing nothing and haven't got a job or any friends to hang out with and to be honest I miss when I was getting high at least and having some fun..

I am prescribed 75 8mg pills a month and frankly I don't know what to do. I tell my doctor I take 2 usually a day or sometimes 2 and a half so he prescribes me 75 a month. It used to be 90.... I feel kind of guilty of getting all these pills. I have like over 100 saved in a jar right now and I don't know what to do with them. Is it illegal for me to be doing this? I was planning on slinging them but I live with good people and I don't want to cause trouble.. now I'm just stuck with a bunch of pills and over time I expect to be holding onto lot more in the future. I'm not sure if this is against the rules and I'm not trying to solicit anything here but I am just wondering what I should do. I mean getting more of something in my addict brain is better ain't it? I got 32mg a day when I first started.... and I'm pretty sure my doctor doesn't know that more is less with sub... but he's a good guy. would love some advice here.

We do not allow legal discussion here. You'd have to consult with an attorney or look into the specific laws of your region.

 

[Lifeback]

First time reader/poster. I want to post, but it may be quite long. I have a lot say. Questions I HAVE to ask.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

Well then ask.. and try to make it as concise and to the point as possible. Also use the search engine and read through the megathreads to see if your questions have already been answered, which 9 times out of 10, they already were.

 

[sinclair1984]

Whats good eve? feeling good today?

I was gonna make a new thread and will if this gets not many replies but i expect Scag to have a good answer. anyways, i know that the benzo opiate combo is a lethal one. i have a opiate tolerance and i used to take 8mg of sub a day and now im at 2mg 2X a day. now someone said to me that even with a real low dose benzo you can still harm yourself. ok thats cool but im taking a maintenance drug that im used to and it doesnt get me high and im only dosing 1-2 mg of etizolam at a time (just got 30 1mg). How can this put me at any risk? even a month and a half ago when i ate 40 of em in like 10 days or a little less so iwas taking like 5+ mgs at a time binging while still taking 4mg of sub 2X a day at that point. ( i actually just got the vivotrol shot and he loaded me up with 18 strips in a week) so there was days i was taking 32 mgs in a day plus 5mg of etizolam (no tolly for etiz, i can feel 1-1.5 mg). i was fine during that so how the fuck is sub and benzos harmful if you already have an opiate tolerance and are used to the drug you're taking that doesnt get you high. i guess the effects can stilll be present even if you dont feel it but still. wtf?

hello smoke, I'm also a subutex user with high opiate tolerace. I'm on 8mg twice a day. ive also been on clonazepam for sixteen years at four mg a day. never had a problem with the combo. In fact since I also take it for pain management it's what's recomended by most docs [check that little emt card they give you to put in you wallet in it the instructions to the medics are to administer benzo's.] however, everyone tells me there's an od risk, and I'm no doc.