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Opioids Does anyone believe buprenorphine (suboxone) can assist with kratom addiction?

Wow, I am quite curious as to where you obtained a rhynchophylline extract, and no judgement here, but why would you want to take an isolate of that alkaloid in particular? Yes, the NMDA antagonist effects are VERY minor, as are the kappa agonist effects from the other mitrgaynine-like alkaloids and possibly mitagynine itself. I do have the full PDF somewhere but can't seem to find it now unfortunately. I do agree that these effects must be minor because it does not contribute to the high much, but over the long term, I feel like it does in terms of lasting effects and the nasty withdrawal. People do downplay kratom withdrawal, but I agree wholeheartedly having come off many drugs that it is quite hard to kick. Its not so much the restless legs/sweats/typical opioid withdrawal that gets me, its the severe anhedonia and depression that follows. I noticed you mentioned that although the withdrawals are quite intense that they do not justify the weak high you get. I have a theory about this; people usually switch to kratom after extensive use and withdrawal from other opioids and thus find the high to be weak. I was using kratom right from the beginning of my opiate use and I found every aspect of it (the nod, euphoria, analgesia) MUCH MUCH more intense than even oxycodone. Kratom is one POTENT opioid, but I am at the same point with it now as you are; just minor relief from the amotivation and a slight energy boost. If you had done kratom from the beginning of your opiate use before any appreciable tolerance had accumulated I'm sure you'd see what I mean. It felt like being on a super high dose of a potent opioid with an empathogenic/stimulant feel that was very clean. Its comparable to how someone with no opiate tolerance can take a chip of suboxone and be nodding and drooling in blissful euphoria but someone with opiate tolerance can take upwards of 32mgs and feel nothing. I do believe that the kratom high is by no means "weak", it is just that people often turn to it after extensive opioid abuse; I actually found it, as I said, FAR more euphoric than even insufflated oxycodone in the beginning. Anyhow, the suboxone seems to be taking care of the depression and opioid-like PAWS. However, the adrenergic withdrawal is quite hard to deal with and I am forced to use my script for diazepam to not feel the depersonalization from the extreme fatigue in the morning. I have been chugging coffee like an insane person to compensate for this. Do you have any suggestions as to what I could use for the adrenergic related post acute withdrawal symptoms other than the MASSIVE amounts of caffeine I have been consuming? If you do, that would be much appreciated. I'm wondering if I could use the kratom while on suboxone and taper it since the opiate effects would be blocked but the adrenergic effects would be there...sounds like it might be too much of a trigger for me though...any suggestions on how to stack something herbal or pharmaceutical on top of my suboxone to quench my bodies adrenergic needs?

Thanks again for your input and sharing your story man,
BirdOfPrey
 
^ phenyl or pseudoephrine (pseudo preferable). Not that I endorse you're decison to go on subs esspically such a high dose. I only took 8mg of subs a day when quiting a $100 a day heroin habit, I think it's highly unnecessary for kratom and some lope would be much better suited.
 
I was using dope to come off suboxone at one point, lol. Didn't last but not because I abused the dope, I just couldn't get enough of it (in the literal sense, not the I loved it so much I kept doing more and more sense). Made it 9 days, three days without anything as it was dry here before I went back on subs.

In Dec. I ran out early again so I bought 250g of kratom. Made tea with it and it lasted 8 days, then I went back on subs. It worked well, though, better than dope, so I made the decision to go back on it for real in the middle of January. Aside from a three 2mg subs, I've been off it since then. Subs feel amazing now, but I'm gonna stay off. Have done oxy a handful of times because it was readily available and my junky mind said it was a reward for working 80hr weeks.

Go back to kratom, get some stem and vein and taper. Going the route you're on things will get worse.
 
So you've been pretty much clean since then? Congrats man. I can not remember far back enough to when subs felt amazing (~5 years ago when I was 17 and took a 1mg chip and puked for 48 hours straight, still felt amazing...) haha. I agree I have definitely realized that 16 mg of sub is a massive dose for ANYONE. After reading about the ceiling effects more and listening to other peoples' stories I've come to the conclusion that NO one needs to be on 24 or 36mg. I do realize some need 16 however, that is not me with kratom...I am gonna speak the doctor about drastically reducing my sub dose as I am hearing from some people coming off 2 gram a day H habits that they are only using 4-6mg. My real goal was just 2 to 3 months on sub then a taper. After getting some suggestions, including the ones from you guys on the board here, I think that I may reconsider even being on for that long. Thanks alot guys.
 
Going from kratom to bupe is taking a big step backwards. You'll just end up with a way worse habit, as bupe is infinitely stronger than kratom. Kratom to get off bupe can work well.. but definitely not vice versa. Not a smart move.
 
pinpoint said:
On a related note, does anyone believe that methadone can assist in codeine addiction?
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Hah. I said this in another thread somewhere. Using methadone for a codeine addiction is like killing a fly with a chainsaw.... total overkill and all you're going to do is make yourself 10x worse off. The detox from the methadone will be 100x worse than what you would have gone through just stopping the codeine.

Bupe is a horrible idea for codeine too. It is just so much stronger, that unless you were on a massive massive codeine dose, and switched to only a microscopic amount of bupe, just like with the methadone.. it's going to give you a way worse habit and the detox will be 10x worse.
 
^Yup, I'd even say trading my < 80mg/day oxy habit for bupe several years ago was a mistake.

And for anyone with that dry Midwestern sense of humor my previous post was an attempt at sarcasm.
 
BirdOfPrey said:
That wasn't directed at you guys it was towards a prior post by another bluelighter. Oh and @toothpastedog thank you for sharing your story. It's helpful. Your wording confused me a bit, did you mean to say it was NOT as painful as you thought it would be from the horror stories? And @dirzted thank you so much for your support man. I actually just calculated my use towards the end and it was actually more like 2,000 grams (2 kilos) a month. Yes, roughly, 60 or more grams a day. I know, ridiculous right? See my issue here is not acute withdrawals. It's that I NEVER want to go back to kratom EVER and I know the suboxone will block me from doing so even if I get tempted. I just don't know what else to do :/. I could EASILY man up through the acute withdrawals. It's that painstaking amotivation for life and lack of desire for anything that kills me. It's really quite sad. Maybe at this point a rapid taper along with support and counseling/groups could be the option? The Suboxone has helped immensely in the short term but idk. See here's the thing, people often to underestimate kratom withdrawal because they do not become lifelong users like me. I have been doing this much for 5 years, and I guess you are right toothpastedog, a lot of it is so mental. I just want out man, I can't do it anymore. I never imagined what started out as beautiful nights in bliss with this seemingly benign herb turned into a full blown addiction that I've lost so much over. @Dirzted thank you for the suggestion to head over to the Kratom megathread. I have honestly received more support in my few weeks on bluelight than I have from any AA or NA cult meeting bullshit. Thank you guys, it's really appreciated.
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The bupe w/d WASN'T as painful as I expected. And btw, regardless of dose, you can still potentiate the suboxone AND catch a 'lil buzz from 600mg Tagamet 45-30 min before you dose. And Listerine (ethanol mouthwash) will help the pill dissolve both a little quicker and most effectively if I wasn't clear.

And btw I'd lower my dose of bupe if I were you (sounds like you're at a high dose). Suboxone simply loses a lot of it's effectiveness after 8-12mg if not sooner. It's certainly a less is more drug. Even if you'd become habituated at a higher than standard prescribed dose (e.g. 16-32mg) you can still cut the dose in half (or quarter it at 24-32mg) and feel little if any effect from the reduction. It's only at the lower dose range where decreasing your dose will result in feeling the w/d or shittiness.

Good luck!

p.s. Sorry, just saw you got my post earlier. Oh well ;)

p.p.s And regarding Kratom alkaloids, I used LOVE 7-Hydroxymitragynine. Of course, I didn't have much of a tolerance at the time (well, what we consider tolerance can be relative, but when I refer to a high tolerance I'm talking about 3g tar IM / day and moderate tolerance refers to 2-4mg buprenorphine sublingual /day, whereas low tolerance - "not much of a tolerance" - refers to more like 30-40mg of oxycodone / day), but I found 7-HO to be almost like oxycodone mg for mg with a nice speedy edge. Classic opioid side effects, like itching, seemed to get a lot more pronounced at higher dosages though... YMMV
 
Interesting, because I heard that 7-hydroxymitagynine was lacking the unique magic of kratom. I heard that due to the lack of other alkaloids that are found in the leaf, that the experience is somewhat disappointing and more speedy than opiate-like. How would you compare it to leaf? Hahaha and @toothpastedog I DEFINITELY agree with your figures. A light tolerence is a 30-40mg oxycodone habit. That was me when I started Kratom...
 
pinpoint said:
On a related note, does anyone believe that methadone can assist in codeine addiction?
Click to expand...

How about some suggestions and help instead of dry sarcasm? And just to discredit what you just said, yes codeine requires MUCH larger doses to achieve significant mu agonism but it is metabolized in vivo to morphine. Do you believe morphine withdrawal is a joke that can't be dealt with with sub? After all, dope is simply diamorphine (diacetylmorphine).
 
If I said it before i'll say it again. Mu agonism is mu agonism. It all depends on dose, duration of use, etc...."potency" does not have anything to do with a drugs actions. You just need to
"take more" milligram for milligram to achieve the same effects.
 
Mu agonism is indeed mu agonism but you're looking at Suboxone which is close to 40x the potency of morphine. That's a hell of a lot stronger than even the strongest alkaloid found in Kratom, 7-OHM, which is 5-10x the potency of morphine and you're getting MUCH smaller doses if your Kratom contains any 7OHM at all.

All I'm saying is if I regret getting on bupe for an 80mg/day oxycodone habit what do you think your end result will be?

It sounds like you're doing what many people on the internet do - come online to find people to reinforce their ideals. If anyone disagrees with them they are instantly discredited.
 
Yeah, it's like people need to prove and convince everyone that they are are "hard" enough and that they need bupe or methadone because their habit was big enough!

Ha. As if it's cool to be addicted to high doses of strong opiates.

Ridiculous.
 
Nah man I didn't mean any disrespect and I'm not trying to reinforce my own views, although I guess subconsciously somewhere perhaps that plays a role because I want to believe I'm doing the right thing. I just simply did not see another option to end the misery I felt with kratom, and life feels INFINITELY better now, although I am aware I'll have to kick it somewhere down the road. I'm not too worried though because the quality of life even if I were to STAY on this is completely doable for me. I totally respect your point of view, I just felt as if some advice would have been nice instead of sarcasm. I have spent a great deal of time considering what you and others on the board have said, and have decided to drastically reduce my bupe dose and do a taper soon.

Thanks for the advice though guys,
BirdOfPrey
 
And I most certainly never ever said that the extent of my usage was "cool". Ever. I only explained it so that people could better see my situation and give advice accordingly. To the contrary, I was actually describing how miserable life was with my usage not glorifying it or trying to sound "hard'. I have NO idea at all where you got that idea from...
 
BirdOfPrey said:
Nah man I didn't mean any disrespect and I'm not trying to reinforce my own views, although I guess subconsciously somewhere perhaps that plays a role because I want to believe I'm doing the right thing. I just simply did not see another option to end the misery I felt with kratom, and life feels INFINITELY better now, although I am aware I'll have to kick it somewhere down the road. I'm not too worried though because the quality of life even if I were to STAY on this is completely doable for me. I totally respect your point of view, I just felt as if some advice would have been nice instead of sarcasm. I have spent a great deal of time considering what you and others on the board have said, and have decided to drastically reduce my bupe dose and do a taper soon.

Thanks for the advice though guys,
BirdOfPrey
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That's all right man as long as you know what you're up against and don't mind being on it for long term knowing what the end game will be like. I wish you the best of luck.
 
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