Opioids Does anyone believe buprenorphine (suboxone) can assist with kratom addiction?

[HdoubleODeezy]

^ +1

Forget the suboxone.. its just delaying the inevitable. Possibly making it worse.

 

[Beavesmx44]

The withdrawal I experienced from suboxone was longer/worse than the heroin I was using it to get off of at the time. Couldn't sleep for close to two weeks even with trazodone. Kratom is the lesser of any opiate evil. Taper off the kratom and throw the bupe in the trash imo.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

Thanks for the advice guys. Yeah I am aware that buprenorphine has a higher affinity than naloxone. Actually, it has been shown in studies that the buprenorphine/naloxone combination causes buprenorphine to have a HIGHER bioavailability (significantly higher) than buprenorphine alone. I believe this is due to the low dose antagonist theory, as low doses of naltrexone have also been shown in clinical studies to potentiate buprenorphine. I simply take my suboxone sublingually dissolved it 40% grain alcohol and it is honestly way stronger than snorting it. The alcohol raises the BA significantly, and actually has a higher BA than intransally (in general). Very little naloxone is absorbed through any route other than IV or IM, it only has about 1-4% (at the very most) bioavailability when taken sublingually. The naloxone is essentialy inert, except for the fact that it seems to potentiate the bupe a bit. Thanks for the advice guys, I've only been on suboxone for around 2 weeks; might just try a rapid taper and take it from there. I simply can not taper with kratom as it is impossible for me. I have tried numerous times and I am always tempted to dose higher; there is just way too much history there. If I even tasted a sip of kratom I'd be back to doing it 3 times daily at 20 grams a dose. I guess the only way is just to taper off the sub and meditate/attend counseling.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

I hear so many mixed reviews of suboxone. I have heard everything from "it was the worst withdrawal of my life, 1000 times worse than heroin, PAWS for a year etc. etc." to "it was relatively painless and saved my life". I simply don't know what to believe. Has anyone out there had a painless experience with a very slow and gradual taper from suboxone used for ~6 months or less?

 

[Flaga121]

I think the fact that your trying potentiate to 16mg of Suboxone is a bad sign.

I've basically gotten through the Acid W/d from 1/15 of that dose for 3-4 years (1.5mg-1mg). Kratom made the acute stage much easier, but from kicking Bupe in the past I will say, the post acute lasts AWHILE because of Bupes long half life.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I hear so many mixed reviews of suboxone. I have heard everything from "it was the worst withdrawal of my life, 1000 times worse than heroin, PAWS for a year etc. etc." to "it was relatively painless and saved my life". I simply don't know what to believe. Has anyone out there had a painless experience with a very slow and gradual taper from suboxone used for ~6 months or less?

It totally depends on how you use it and a lot of factors like how long you've been on it, what dose, etc. etc. Given the specific of how I used it, after almost two years I had a very easy time coming off 4mg C/T with comfort meds like temazepam, clonidine and gabapentin. My "taper" consisted of going down the second year to 4mg from taking 8mg/day for the first year, and that was it really. I went down to 2mg a couple times, but just ended up back at 4mg. But anyways, actually my withdrawal was nearly painless, and that was going from 4mg to zero when I jumped off. The comfort meds can make a world of difference, as can the doctor you work with while you come off of it. My doc and the comfort meds he prescribed were probably key in my easy w/d. And keep in mind, I was on suboxone for heroin dependency.

In any case, Suboxone withdrawals are a lot less intense than Heroin or other full agonist withdrawals, but Suboxone withdrawals do last longer, and for some significantly so if not properly managed. Given all the sub withdrawal horror stories I heard, I was totally surprised at how much withdrawal and c/t went. I find methadone withdrawals to be worse than suboxone withdrawals, however through the clinic I'm able to taper down with methadone in a way I couldn't with suboxone, so in the end it's not really much different, and with comfort meds maybe even a little easier. Then again, we're all different and react to drugs differently, so it really comes down to knowing yourself and taking the most precautions and making the most healthy decisions you can.

Frankly I don't think ORT/Suboxone maintenance is appropriate for a kratom user, although to each his own. Whatever you do, remember that less is more with Suboxone. You'll almost certainly get more out of taking 1-4mg than you would anything above that, certainly anything above 8-12mg. I can't imagine anything other than a rapid (two, at most three, weeks), low dose (starting at 8mg, dropping to 4mg for the next couple days, dropping down to 2mg for the second week and drop from 1mg to 0.25mg for the final week) buprenorphine/Suboxone taper would be worthwhile. Anything more would be overkill, and I'd only even suggest what I had for a very serious acute kratom habit. If kratom's acute withdrawals only last like two weeks, I'd stick to a two week sub taper, and otherwise three week taper tops I imagine.

And if you're going to kick try and work with a doctor on it, so he can make sure you have all the comfort meds you need to make the transition as painless as possible. Of course, a lot of it is in your head, so doing what you need to do to maintain a positive attitude is also very important to this process.

Good luck op!

 

[dirzted]

I was on Kratom for only about 3 months so I wouldn't say I was anywhere near you as for as severity of usage goes but I still got to using about 10-12 grams a day and if I didn't switch back to H I would probably have felt pretty shitty. However, there are PLENTY of people like you man I know it's definitely not as prominent as other addictions out there but your not alone, try posting in the Kratom megathread on this site I bet you'll get some good support there.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

I am not trying to potentiate Suboxone for recreational reasons. Once again, zero high from it. I just don't like sitting with the tablet under my tongue for forever as it seems to take a ridiculously long time for me, and the with the alcohol it absorbs fast and I can hold it for less time and get the same amount of medication. Also, since my dose is far above the ceiling dose, there's no way I will get "higher", it will just last longer.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

That wasn't directed at you guys it was towards a prior post by another bluelighter. Oh and @toothpastedog thank you for sharing your story. It's helpful. Your wording confused me a bit, did you mean to say it was NOT as painful as you thought it would be from the horror stories? And @dirzted thank you so much for your support man. I actually just calculated my use towards the end and it was actually more like 2,000 grams (2 kilos) a month. Yes, roughly, 60 or more grams a day. I know, ridiculous right? See my issue here is not acute withdrawals. It's that I NEVER want to go back to kratom EVER and I know the suboxone will block me from doing so even if I get tempted. I just don't know what else to do :/. I could EASILY man up through the acute withdrawals. It's that painstaking amotivation for life and lack of desire for anything that kills me. It's really quite sad. Maybe at this point a rapid taper along with support and counseling/groups could be the option? The Suboxone has helped immensely in the short term but idk. See here's the thing, people often to underestimate kratom withdrawal because they do not become lifelong users like me. I have been doing this much for 5 years, and I guess you are right toothpastedog, a lot of it is so mental. I just want out man, I can't do it anymore. I never imagined what started out as beautiful nights in bliss with this seemingly benign herb turned into a full blown addiction that I've lost so much over. @Dirzted thank you for the suggestion to head over to the Kratom megathread. I have honestly received more support in my few weeks on bluelight than I have from any AA or NA cult meeting bullshit. Thank you guys, it's really appreciated.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

Oh and to add to this whole shitshow? I'm having a bitch of a time tapering off diazepam which was prescribed at 20mg a day for the last 6 months and I have NEVER abused/used recreationally. Even when I cut my dose down by quarters every week I'm left with crippling panic attacks. Man this is gonna be a rough ride quitting benzos and opiates all in one fell swoop...

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

im in the process of quitting alcohol, benzos, and opiates ATM.. it is hard and very mentally challenging.. just so you know, you'll get through it.
It's a long road to sobriety and just know at the end of it is cleanliness, which is what you're seeking right?
If not, than forget what i said.. im only speaking from experience, this is the second time i've been in this situation.
Good luck.

PAWS from bupe, 10mg etizolam/day, and around 6 beers a day.. not gonna let you know how long i've been struggling. But it's about half my life, you can choose your own destiny.. drugs or not. I know they feel good and help with life (that's drug addict talking). But they also hinder you from coping with everyday life without them.

Best route is get clean and go to therapy to re-learn clean living.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

@toothpaste dog, my bad. Your wording as not confusing at all. I just woke up and my reading was what was confusing haha. Thanks for sharing your story man.

 

[treezy z]

suboxone is a much worse addiction than kratom IMO in terms of withdrawals.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

I agree that the withdrawal may be worse, but for me personally, here is the difference; I have an extensive history with kratom and a STRONG emotional attachment to it. I can totally deal with kratom's acute withdrawal, but is the agonizing mental withdrawal I feel after that I can not deal with. I am aware some people use kratom to come off of other opiates, even buprenorphine. But for me, I have no fond memories of suboxone. When I go to taper off of suboxone there won't be any of those nagging nostalgic thoughts of "how good subs used to be", like I have with Kratom. I could turn out to be horribly wrong, in which case, I'll come back to say you were right. I do know that suboxone is never the perfect solution; if you wanna quit opiates, the best way to do it is to quit opiates entirely. But for me, this is the only option, and it sure beats tossing down spoons and spoons of expensive extracts and feeling depressed and hopeless all day long. Now I just take my sub, go about my day, and almost feel like I never had an opiate addiction.

 

[RTrain]

I think so, but it'd have to be a pretty heavy kratom addiction and you would want to use the Suboxone in very ow doses as a detox tool. I would not suggest going on maintenance for a kratom addiction. Unless in some off circumstance you really couldn't stay off it and it was causing some medical issues like the reports of jaundice that some people seem to make.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

The issues it was causing was EXTREME chronic fatigue where I was in a constant debilitating brain fog as if I was doing some thyroid or at the very least adrenal gland damage. Like, seriously life impeding chronic fatigue and depersonalization/derealization (which I believe is due in part to its kappa agonism). Seeing as Suboxone is the most potent kappa antagonist currently available for clinical use I am hoping I can reverse this. I understand peoples' concern about using Suboxone for a kratom addiction. When it comes down to it though, my kratom addiction was so bad that I could not even step out of my dorm in the morning to walk across the street let alone go to class without swallowing a minimum of 20mg of diazepam due to the EXTREME derealization/depersonlization and chronic fatigue issues (they go hand in hand for me) which I never had before kratom use. I would take kratom, feel slightly better for 15 minutes, and then the dp/dr would come back even stronger for the remainder of the day as I attempted to chase it away with more kratom to very little avail. I cut myself off from most friends except those that would sit inside with me, I lost all motivation for anything in life that I used to enjoy, and just felt utter hopelessness and dispair. I do worry about the Suboxone, but it is the best bet I have right now. At least I can go about my day as normal without being compulsive in redosing. My high dose above the ceiling allows me to ignore any urge to redose on Suboxone, which is strange as I have NEVER had any self-control when it comes to any drug. With Suboxone I will get the feeling for a second like I want to redose, but it can be quickly ignored. My kratom addiction was so heavy (around 2000 grams per month) that I could not even get a head change from 200mg of oxycodone. It is for these reasons that I feel that it is the best option right now. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But all I know is that I need to give my adrenal glands time to heal from the beating I put them through with my kratom use and a short course of Suboxone maintenence seems to be the only way. I am just simply unable to taper kratom or go off it c/t. I have tried several times and it just isn't possible for me. I guess maybe just 2-3 months on Suboxone to learn how to live again, and then a taper off is my plan. I really hope I haven't made an egregious error...but I guess only time will tell.

 

[Hammilton]

I used kratom to kick a suboxone habit that lasted about 8 years.

At first I was like all of you, glad to be off my drug of choice and feeling normal. Slowly I started looking for ways to get high off of it. I started using 1 benadryl to potentiate it, soon enough I was taking 7.5 of them. Without the benadryl the subs were unnoticeable, but without the subs the benadryl made me extremely dysphoric. I would take the subs every 25 hours or so, so that I was pushing it back at least 1 hour a day, that way I'd enjoy it more.

Fast forward a bit when I discovered that if I ran out and I was forced to go a few days without it, I'd get genuinely high from each dose for about a week or two, I'd cut down to a .5mg then with each day I'd increase a little bit until I was taking 16mg a day. Was fun, but I was only prescribed 2mg a day, and the time I was at .5mg didn't make up for the time I was at 8 or 16mg. So I'd run out two weeks early and be fucked, I'd spend a bunch of money buying subs. That was before I knew how effective kratom was, so around Christmas I let myself run out and switched to kratom. I'm not sure what's better. Kratom works great, but it doesn't have the dreams that even subs did, and since I don't have subs in me I'm free to eat any opiate I want. I snorted 45mg of oxy last night, and 60 the night before that. I'm surprised how high it's keeping my tolerance, though, that's worth something I suppose. I would have though 60mg would kill me after not having used real opiates for so long.

That is something too, you can't just keep taking more kratom or you start getting the wobbles which is really unpleasant, so there's a definite ceiling effect

 

[amanitadine]

Birdofprey- I understand where you are coming from, I used Kratom to come off subs, and ended up taking usually over 50gs a day for 2.5 years...still am, but repeated attempts at getting and staying off are getting more successful....it is a nasty addiction at high dose long term. Subs could work well, but like Kratom used for getting off subs, probably best in not using for too long...

By the way, I have seen nothing about any alkaloid in Kratom possessing kappa agonism, thankfully so!

 

[BirdOfPrey]

Hmm well, I believe that although they have low affinities, much lower than for mu, many of the mitragynine-like alkaloids including its oxidative derivative do have some kappa activity. It's nothing that would be horrible for the short term user or influence the high even to any appreciable degree, I'm just trying to deduce what could be the cause of these issues that I have am having over extensive long term abuse of this plant. It could even possibly be rhynchophylline which is an NMDA-antagonist causing these problems long term, or a combination of all the above factors. Who knows? All I know is that kratom has caused some strange long term effects that don't seem to be present with other opiates.

https://www.thieme-connect.com/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-0032-1307599


Anyhow, could you explain what you mean by "a nasty addiction at high dose long term" as it pertains to you? I'm really interested in hearing about your experience as its nice to have someone out there that can relate. What are the most unpleasant aspects for you?

Thanks man,
BirdOfPrey

 

[amanitadine]

Interesting, thanks, I wish I had the full paper to see binding data...the kappa agonism must be quite slight, because at least subjectively kappa agonists have a very recognizable dysphoric effects profile for me! I've taken Rhynchophylline in its pure form and the effects were quite unremarkable, even at high doses...

The most unpleasant aspects for me are the anhedonia, lethargy, and total loss of motivation. I get this from other opioids too, but Kratom carries it's own signature. The withdrawal is also surprisingly nasty for how mild the effects are, comparatively. I get a week to ten days of opioid like withdrawals, but with much more anxiety, and then several weeks of symptoms that are different than opioid PAWS....more antidepressant like in nature. I haven't made it more than 60 days, so I can't speak as to how long it takes for me to get to baseline...

I have kicked heroin, methadone, etc and maybe I'm just getting old but the Kratom withdrawals are proving more insidious than the aforementioned. I've taken Kratom off and on for over ten years, but this last stretch has been for 2.5, as I mentioned. I go through 1.5-2 kilos a month. The only real positive I get is relief of withdrawal symptoms for a few hours....a burst of relief, then more grey for a few hours, then withdrawal...rinse, wash, repeat...

I recently took Ibogaine, which was amazing, and I lasted two weeks. It did a number on the opioid aspect of withdrawals, but not the secondary phase. When I quit for two months at at the end of 2013 I was getting close to getting over that phase, feeling good, but one flawed decision led me right back into it. Same with the recent Ibogaine induced break. It's a bitch. I'm only about a week back into it, but the addiction and dependance is back full force. I am going to have a go at it again in a few days...this time assisted only by loperamide and exercise, as well as some some cognitive and social support. I'm over it...it's not exactly a gorilla on my back, but a bush baby with 12" long claws!

People often scoff at Kratom addiction....but I have heartily abused and been addicted to just about every class of drugs there is the last 20 years ( seriously...i was a "professional" ) and Kratom has, is, one of the harder ones to shake. I believe this is due to both a combination of its effects, withdrawal, and it's accessibility and "acceptability". It is a great plant but is no joke when abused.

I have done plenty of rounds with extracts like FST, UEI, and gold reserve, but my experiences the past great while have been with plain leaf only.

You've got the opioidergic effects, NMDA antagonism, adrenergic effects, calcium channel blockade, etc etc etc and the cocktail is proving a mighty one to overcome despite the gentle profile...

Good luck man. If my next attempt does not pay off I will likely switch to a straight Mu agonist and divide my withdrawal into two parts....the opioidergic one and the nastier mind fuckery one!