Kratom induced liver injury?

[samsavenger]

what is 7ho?

 

[sekio]

7-hydroxymitragynine

there's no reason it couldn't be tested for

 

[DJHENRU]

I would just want to know the differences between species because 7ho wasn't recognized in many of the older studies on kratom

 

[Whizz111]

I also enjoy a couple of glasses of wine of an evening. I was obviously doing this whilst taking Kratom. I am not a heavy drinker ( always have my 2 nights off a week- uk government guidelines!!!) but I do wonder if this was not a good idea? My consultant certainly thought that the two may not mix. This is worrying as I'm sure many Kratom users enjoy a drink now and then??!! Any thoughts?

 

[samsavenger]

^ alcohol doesn't really mix well with anything, even itself...

my guess is that the tiny amount of alcohol I consumed probably didn't help my situation and may have exacerbated it slightly, but there have been plenty of reports of intrahepatic cholestasis caused by kratom of equal severity without alcohol as a factor.

my personal feeling is that my outcome wouldn't have been significantly different if I'd forgone my glass of wine, or even had two... it's clearly not the wine that's the problem in this case.

 

[Whizz111]

Yes - I think I agree with you on that one. Obviously anything I'd taken at the time was an issue- and a small amount of alcohol was all I'd had- nothing else. My discharge papers cited drug induced hepatitis as the cause - ie Kratom.

 

[Privateer]

samsavenger, boiling it for 20 minutes was obviously a terrible idea, lord knows what kind of chemicals you could have made/reactions you could have catalyzed when you made that tea

 

[samsavenger]

I think many people here will agree that boiling for 20 minutes seems to be a very standard recipe for kratom tea. see for yourself:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-509304.html
http://www.mitragyna.com/en/preparing-and-using-kratom
http://kratompowder.weebly.com/how-to-take-kratom--10-tips.html
http://voices.yahoo.com/how-potent-batch-kratom-tea-using-kratom-8883861.html?cat=5
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17072954

the traditional brews I came across in south-east asia involved fresh kratom being boiled for multiple hours, even several days in huge pots over open fires with ingredients being continually added.

without getting into semantics, I personally 'simmered' the kratom over low heat on a gas stove for 20 mins. I wouldn't have thought a prolonged roaring boil would've done anything for the taste.

You do raise a valid concern though. If boiling this stuff for 20 minutes can 'catalyze dangerous chemical reactions' which could poison a human liver, it simply highlights the hazardous nature of the plant to begin with. perhaps your comment is indicative of an emerging subconscious awareness among the kratom using community regarding the slippery toxicology of this plant... but even so, it seems unlikely that a standard 20 minute boil could transform "benign plant material" into something highly toxic.

 

[sekio]

I find it unlikely that alcohol or the method of preparation is at fault here. More likely, some individuals have a sensitivity to mitragynine, or there is some novel contaminant that your liver doesn't enjoy. Heavy metals wouldn't show on a GC/MS screen, you would need wet chemistry to test for them.

If you can correlate liver enzyme elevation with ingestion of one batch of kratom, blame the kratom. (I don't suggest eating the same kratom that made you sick to "confirm") Otherwise I would suggest that you are hypersensitive to mitragynine. However, in your case, I wouldn't be ingesting any more wierd plants. Take it easy and let yourself recover.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I used 2 strains, both in powder form. "bali" and "borneo white".

It's worth noting that both powders seemed very hydrophobic, the borneo white moreso.... but I think this is just a general property of kratom powder.

emkee I'm not a doctor... but it seems kinda futile to 'preload' with 'liver protectors' when both the cause of the toxic reaction and the metabolic mechanism of the substance are totally unknown. I don't even know if there's anything you could take that would even protect your liver in that sense... but obviously the simplest solution to avoid poisoning is to refrain from ingesting poison.

If the vendor I got it from is right all so called Bali is Borneo red vein, technically there was no Kratom on Bali.

If you think Borneo is hydrophobic you will be amazed by the way green Malay reacts with water. Or better lack of reaction with water :D

As preload we could come up with some combo but as long as the mechanism is not clear it seems futile, maybe even contraproductive. Although it probably wouldn't hurt to take Milk Thistle/ Carduus Marianus (silymarin) extract, kurkuma, some acetylated l-cysteine/ l-carnitine, vitamin C and Alpha Lipoic Acid. Acetyl-l-carnitine is allready in my regimen cause I am on Valproic Acid which is hepatotoxic.

And I am just in the middle of my second day withdrawing from my 9 gram/ day Kratom habit, wail whine . So like all junkies would say in this position avoidance is out of the question. My bloodtest, which was taken 3 weeks after starting Valproic Acid, showed no elevated liver values. During that time I was taking Kratom daily and although results came out ok one cannot help to become paranoid about it.

I was using Borneo White vein crushed leaf. I would slightly heap a teaspoon and put in in a mug with warm water and then quickly down it. This wasn't easy - I often had quite a bit of leaf left in my mouth which I would chew and swallow. I noticed that this caused slight numbing of the tongue which I attributed to its pain killing properties-perhaps I should have been worried? Also think I was silly not to rest the Kratom in boiling water prior to ingesting it. So this was a kind of toss and wash I guess. I did this twice a day.

The numbing doesn't sound worrying, me when my tolerance is low a good dose of Kratom numbs the tongue and mouth area. AlthoughI am not 100% certain the numbing seems to originate from inwards. So after ingesting it x minutes later the numbing comes on directly followed by the high itself.

But ingesting a to low of a dose, or having a huge tolerance and it disappears or becomes a exception, if it would numb on contact a small ammount would numb just as well. Although I don't have the oppertunity to do the topical numbing test other people may test there curiousity and report back.

 

[Thanatos9]

I read a study that compared either mitragynine or 7hm to morphine and they also tested potential liver and kidney damage iirc.

After some searching found it, http://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/18/1/666/pdf

If kratom does cause liver damage it's not mitragynine that's the problem.

"These results showed that
combination of MG and morphine has no toxic effects on liver."

"These results showed that higher
concentration MG and morphine have minimal toxic effects on kidney."

Either way I'm not stopping taking kratom because one person got a bad contaminated batch or was unlucky.

 

[Whizz111]

Nobody is saying that we had a " bad batch". Yes- we had a bad reaction. We are purely speculating-and quite rightly so. If you wish to take Kratom then that's fine. But please don't be naive- there are increasingly more accounts of its toxic potential. It quite obviously doesn't suit everyone.

 

[samsavenger]

^^ as discussed earlier, the kratom tested negative for contaminants both in my case and in the published toxicology report on kratom induced intrahepatic cholestasis.... also discussed earlier, kratom contains over 40 identified active alkaloids of which almost nothing is known - seems that some of them are probably quite toxic.

kratom does not equal mitragynine. kratom leaf contains about 0.25% mitragynine... not very much is known about what else it contains. if you're chemically isolating mitragynine and taking it in it's pure form, it's probably reasonably safe... but you aren't doing that. nobody is doing that.

that study is specifically about effects of mitragynine on morphine tolerance in mice. it's not a toxicology study and it doesn't involve humans... however it does note elevated liver enzymes in mice which is interesting.

all anecdote and cherry picked information aside - there's no real safety data on this stuff, yet it's landing people in hospital with fucked livers left right and center. use your common sense. kratom is undeniably implicated in my case among many others, but the actual metabolic process is not understood, therefore you have no way of knowing whether this will happen to you... but please come back and let us know when your piss turns brown and you start shitting out bits of your internal organs...

 

[Torso]

I'll try explain some science as why it is really not going to have been the Kratom that did any liver damage, but may have been caused from bad supply.

The phytochemicals of Kratom are alkaloids, flavonoids, and Glycosides. The ratios of these vary within each strain.

None of the alkaloids found in Kratom are hepatotoxic (damaging to the liver)
Pyrrolizidines form the central chemical structure of hepatotoxic alkaloids, and these aren't present in Kratom.

Flavonoids are anti-oxidents (good for your liver), but the one found in kratom is called epicatechin, and also has an insulin mimic action and improves heart health. Hence the research into treatment for diabetes and high blood pressure.

So Glycosides....These are good and bad!
The primary metabolites are Cyanogenic Glycosides and come from the Kratom plant seeds, sounds scarey, but apples and many fruits are the same. If the seeds are used, and not prepared or stored right they're basically gonna become toxic, and from an average dose, you're gonna feel like shit. BUT it will pass, and unless you've got a fucked liver already, still not gonna cause any damage.

The secondary metabolites are the tree's defence mechanism, so if the Kratom has been cultivated when it was a lil under the weather, it usually means it's more potent. If Kratom was toxic it would be found in this part, but this is where you find the Alkaliods....and your buzz!

Saponin are also a kinda of secondary metabolites and kratom contains one called daucosterol which actually is an ingredient in anti-hepatotoxic treatments, so another reason it wasn't the Kratom that made you ill. There's also the triterpenoid saponin's, 2 types of quinovic acid which are showing great signs for treating several health problems. One effects the immune system and research is being done into the affectiveness for treating HIV and cancer. The second helps in prevention and therapy of postischemic reperfusion (brain damage), stroke etc.

So rules of Kratom.
- Do some freakin research!!!
- Don't mix with any other substances... especially alcohol.
- Buy wildcraft organic, no pesticides... no poison.
- Don't buy from 'head shops', they advertise all sorts of weird blends but it's probably mixed with something cheap and crappy that's not kratom and then been bagged by some dude who's just scratched his arse and given you some free poo particles.

 

[Torso]

^^ as discussed earlier, the kratom tested negative for contaminants both in my case and in the published toxicology report on kratom induced intrahepatic cholestasis....

Doesn't mean there wasn't any pesticides in it or poor hygiene passing on a virus that attacks your liver

also discussed earlier, kratom contains over 40 identified active alkaloids of which almost nothing is known - seems that some of them are probably quite toxic.

Umm no, they know which alkaloids effect the liver and which don't

there's no real safety data on this stuff, yet it's landing people in hospital with fucked livers left right and center.

So is alcohol mate, along with all the violence and other effects that come with it.

Kratom is getting popular and is getting knocked out by idiots, and bought by people not doing enough research. For the majority of people it is a miracle cure against addiction to worse drugs (alcohol and opiates), relief from depression and chronic pain etc. The more people who have uninformed experiences, then go tell a doctor, the more incidents that get reported, the more likely it is to get banned... and yet when people are dying everyday from alcoholism, not one reported death from Kratom (alone). I don't wanna sound like a prick... but you had a bad experience, and that's unfortunate, but it's rare and damaging for keeping it legal to write such negative and bias comments to your experience you entered into pretty ignorantly.

 

[samsavenger]

^^ your "science" doesn't escape the fact that along with the entire scientific and medical world, you don't actually know shit about what kratom contains. nobody is denying the presence of various substances which may have a neutral or positive effect - we're simply implying that plaiin old kratom has toxic properties - this is confirmed by the available medical literature and some of us here have experienced it's toxic effects personally. how many times does it need to be said that my kratom was laboratory tested for contaminants? as was the kratom implicated in the published intrahepatic cholestasis case. this is not a question of pesticides or "poo particles".

contrast all this against the increasing frequency of people reporting near-identical liver problems all over the world on online forums, to erowid, to poison control centers, and given that there are actually published toxicology reports explaining it dating back from the 70's until now... that's a small obstacle which completely topples the notion of kratom being safe for human consumption.

I have no opinions about the legality of kratom... however your "scientific opinion" is highly convenient considering your motives. perhaps it's not me who is biased.

I'm sorry if this upsets some people's feelings, but insisting the contrary and trying to back it with pseudoscientific nonsense you found on the kratom association website is not going to help. do some freakin' research yourself.

 

[Torso]

Dude, I really wasn't replying in a 'retaliation' style response, simply wanted to point out some science, and the evidence I have put across all comes from studies, nothing to do with kratom association website or whatever, i've never even been there.

Saying i'm biased or assuming my motives when you know nothing about me is pretty silly and I will tell you I'm a student not a kratom user. (don't assume that means I've never tried it)
At the end of the day, my "science" or even "pseudo science" based on a collection of studies is probably still a lot more informed than your doctor, who you stated....

He'd come across it before and was convinced that it was probably benign, just as I was. All the doctors were very baffled. In the absense of all known liver diseases, alcoholism, NSAID use and with gradually subsiding symptoms after cessation of kratom use - over the course of the week the doctors painstakingly and reluctantly isolated kratom

You were probably also not drinking when ill no?

At the end of the day, bodies and brains are complicated, testing your kratom for contamination will have still been within certain restrictions as it is too expensive to explore every possibility. Anyway. you had a bad experience, that can happen when ingesting anything, kratom for the majority of people, is safe when sensible.

 

[samsavenger]

ffs. read the rest of the thread dude. read it properly.

now I've heard it all. if it's not possible to say someone is biased when you know nothing about them, how could you possibly say that I

wrote such negative and bias comments to your experience you entered into pretty ignorantly

the problem is that you are linking a subjective user report containing some anecdotal information regarding the safety of kratom in the absense of any comprehensive safety data with your own internal narrative on drug prohibition. You cannot blame victims of specific substance-induced health problems to your perceived threat of kratom prohibition any more than I could blame your mother for popping out a moron.

I highly doubt lawmakers are trolling bluelight looking for threads about kratom health issues... and if they are, perhaps this is a problem with your country's legislative system rather than an issue with random people engaging in open discussion.

I'm glad you've come to a bulletproof conclusion that my kratom was not tested properly by the laboratory, given that you have so much inside knowledge. It's excellent that you've done extensive research regarding the methods and cost of such an operation along with your detailed knowledge about the inner workings of the Dutch medical system, I don't suppose you care to shed some more light on this for us?

obviously you have access to some secret treasure chest of safety data about kratom that everyone else does not. perhaps you'd like to share it with us also?

being the superb scholar that you are, I suggest going back over this thread and reading some of the dozens of very similar reports about kratom from numerous sources which I've posted links to, along with the various published medical studies which provide a degree of insight into why this might be happening. until you've done that, stop trying to prove your trollish idiocy to the world.

 

[sekio]

Let's try to keep it civil here...

I don't wanna sound like a prick... but you had a bad experience, and that's unfortunate, but it's rare and damaging for keeping it legal to write such negative and bias comments to your experience you entered into pretty ignorantly.

Would you say the same of people who got pulmonary hypertension from aminorex? or bladder damage from ketamine? or permanent sexual side effects from SSRIs?

It is not "rare and damaging" for people to report side effects. Just because they get published doesn't change the fact that they happen.

 

[Thanatos9]

Thousands of the population where kratom naturally grows have used kratom without ill effect.

I'm not saying kratom is 100% harm free but please don't go around saying kratom causes permanent liver damage without proper scientific knowledge.

You're playing exactly into the hands of big pharma who would love kratom to be banned just like the kava scare a decade ago where it was banned in many countries because companies were using the above ground parts of the plant to save money which gave people liver damage (only the roots of kava should be used and have been safely for hundreds of years).