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Kratom induced liver injury?

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Thousands of people use ketamine with no ill effects. It even cures some of them of their depression. But that doesn't mean it's 100% safe.

don't go around saying kratom causes permanent liver damage without proper scientific knowledge.
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So what alternative explanation do you have when
1. studies report impairment of liver function in SOME people administered kratom
2. Some one makes a positive association between kratom consumption and negative liver effects?

Are you just going to cross your arms and say "nope, didn't happen, can't be the kratom, must be a statistical anomaly"?

The DEA already knows about kratom and has for many years now. One guy posting on a forum won't change the laglity. And "playing into the hands of big pharma"... fuck. I don't even know what to say to that.

The MAN is keeping us OPPRESSED!!!! FREE the WEED, BROTHER!!
 
Thanatos9 said:
Thousands of the population where kratom naturally grows have used kratom without ill effect.
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if you wanna talk science, this is a rough idea of what "no ill effect" means in the context you provided: http://www.youblisher.com/files/publications/63/373689/pdf.pdf. I'd also like to add that I've actually used kratom in it's traditional environment with local long-term users who seemed to be well aware that it comes at a cost to personal health. I'm aware that kratom is marketed in the west as a wonderful organic herb of exotic south-east asian antiquity which invokes the traditional folklore of centuries of trouble-free medicinal use, however this sentiment is not shared by the Thai population, nor rooted in reality.

talking about subjective experiences with drugs isn't "playing into the hands of big pharma", what freaking planet are you on? take your problem to your shitty lawmakers, don't blame people for telling their stories.

if people are demonized for telling their story against the emotional interests of the bluelight status quo, how do you expect anyone to share their honest reports in the future?

I hate to bring this up AGAIN, but apparently people are too lazy to scroll back a couple of pages and click on a link before posting. http://www.springerlink.com/index/E2817L0411455G70.pdf

nobody has said anything about "permanent" liver damage. The people on this thread, including myself, have reported intrahepatic cholestasis, which is a reversible but VERY unpleasant, painful and life-threatening condition.
 
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samsavenger said:
I hate to bring this up AGAIN, but apparently people are too lazy to scroll back a couple of pages and click on a link before posting. http://www.springerlink.com/index/E2817L0411455G70.pdf
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It's just one report, by one guy that you and supporters keep linking to.
The statistics in my 'science' came from several reports/studies etc yet you want to say thats 'pseudo science'

You have also admitted you ingested a drug whist under the influence of another drug... there are people dying everyday from alcoholic liver disease yet you want to keep negating kratom. My 'science' was not to dispute your experience but to show there is more evidence that kratom is less harmful than some legal drugs which are not under threat of being banned.

samsavenger said:
nobody has said anything about "permanent" liver damage. The people on this thread, including myself, have reported intrahepatic cholestasis, which is a reversible but VERY unpleasant, painful and life-threatening condition.
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As I said, people can die from ingesting anything if their system doesn't tolerate it, for example, nuts. Your experience is valid, your negativity towards Kratom is not.

sekio said:
Would you say the same of people who got pulmonary hypertension from aminorex? or bladder damage from ketamine? or permanent sexual side effects from SSRIs?
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I have been prescribed nearly every drug going to tackle depression, if I had bad side effects, yet was using other drugs or drinking I would not go round telling people that the prescribed drug was shit. Which is basically what is happening.
 
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It's just one report, by one guy that you and supporters keep linking to.
The statistics in my 'science' came from several reports/studies etc yet you want to say thats 'pseudo science'

You have also admitted you ingested a drug whist under the influence of another drug... there are people dying everyday from alcoholic liver disease yet you want to keep negating kratom. My 'science' was not to dispute your experience but to show there is more evidence that kratom is less harmful than some legal drugs which are not under threat of being banned.

As I said, people can die from ingesting anything if their system doesn't tolerate it, for example, nuts. Your experience is valid, your negativity towards Kratom is not.
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you've conveniently failed to address any of the issues that I've brought up with you.

what 'supporters'? do you think this is some kind of divisive battle between 'kratom lovers' and 'kratom haters'? take it back to the schoolyard buddy. the study is relevant because it's a published toxicology report on kratom, and gives medical context to an unknown number of people who have experienced exactly the same condition. It also puts to rest any speculation that it was the result of another factor. Given that you are a self-reported "student who reads scientific studies", the assumption would be that you were familiar with this concept.

I'm not even going to address your charge of "negativity against kratom". obviously you have nothing real to say and you're down to making nebulous accusations. Given the context, it's inappropriate and moronic.

Torso said:
I have been prescribed nearly every drug going to tackle depression, if I had bad side effects, yet was using other drugs or drinking I would not go round telling people that the prescribed drug was shit. Which is basically what is happening.
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it's unfortunate that you suffer from depression. my condolences.

it's unfair however to project your state of mind and perceived fairness of communicated events onto the people around you, online or not.


EDIT: it seems clear that there's been some misunderstanding about drinking/poly-drug use in my report.

I hate to clarify again, as I have several times already:

- I had one standard drink (otherwise known as a single unit of alcohol, which is about 150mls of wine. i.e. NOT FREAKING MUCH) whilst under the influence of kratom on a couple of occasions.
- my previous test for elevated liver enzymes attributed to paracetemol (acetominophen) use I mentioned in my report was nearly 2 years ago and was resolved when I used kratom. In retrospect I'm not sure why I even mentioned it as it seems a difficult concept for some people to grasp.
- I was not using any other drugs at the time
 
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I wish there was more research but big pharma won't research holistic medicine. Its bullshit that we know the least about some of the oldest and safest medicines such as cannabis and kratom.
 
big pharma won't research holistic medicine
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You are so naive if you think that "Big Pharma" doesn't do research on the components of these plants.... they may not publish it but for sure there have been analogues of kavains, cannabinoids, & yohimbe-type alkaloids (of which mitragynine is related to) developed.

No research on cannabis?

Part of it is that it costs a lot to run human trials.
 
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sekio said:
You are so naive if you think that "Big Pharma" doesn't do research on the components of these plants....
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That's a straw-man argument. Sure they research components. But not the effect of the whole plant which is what I was talking about.
 
For what it's worth ( having been reading these posts over the weekend) my gastroenterology consultant was familiar with Kratom and its toxicity- and I'm presuming she has a few years of experience with liver issues under her belt. She told me that there are many cases of admission due to herbal ingestion - st Johns Wort and Black Cohosh are now the most common. Interestingly - unlike Kratom - these can be purchased at reputable health stores(UK) and also Boots the chemist!! So I really don't think that it's likely that Kratom will be banned just because someone like me comes along with a negative experience. As Sam says quite rightly- no one is going to bother trawling through these sites .
The alcohol comparison makes me laugh! YES we know a large consumption is bad for the liver. That's the whole point- we really do know this because there are copious amounts of researched evidence. Kratom has not had the research. To state that it is completely safe to take is misleading and potentially dangerous.
 
yeah there are plenty of other substances that cause far more bodily harm than kratom. It may not be 100% safe for everyone but in all reality; it has a great track record with very few incidents of hepatoxicity. If scavenger wants to go cry about this then go post some studies with large samples sizes showing causation, if you can't then stop with this bullshit, it's annoying. Go do your own study if you want but given the large sample of anecdotal evidence we have, liver toxicity is hardly an issue, even if it affects 1% of users. Alcohol is much worse than that, as is acetaminophen and we still use those.

kratom has had plenty of research and thousands of years of human use. Go type kratom into google scholar ffs and take a look. It's just so 'unknown' and 'mysterious' isn't it?

no one is going to state that anything is completely safe, even good old cannabis isn't completely safe, some people are allergic to it! Is it relatively safe? yeah, is kratom relatively safe? yes. Should we demonize it because it caused a few people's liver enzymes to rise? i don't think so. I've used it for years - no problems here, it's not kratom that is the issue, it's your individual body chemistry or organs themselves. Sorry you fucked them up, don't go blame kratom unless you can prove causation though.
 
don't go blame kratom unless you can prove causation though.
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Have you considered reading the thread, smartass?

ITT: People who just can't stomach the idea a natural drug might have personally dependent side effects.

I suppose people with cannabinoid hyperemesis are just "pussies" and should shut the fuck up because cannabis shouldn't be "demonized"? And just because I've done ketamine without bladder issue, all those whiners complaining about damaged bladders must have had contaminated ketamine or something, because that's a load of bullshit (even though it's documented in the medical literature), right? Because they can't prove causation to your arbitarily high standard?

Someone took kratom. their liver enzymes went up and they had lvier issues. Then they stopped taking kratom and the problems went away. This has been documented in the literature before. End of discussion.

This thread is going to get closed now. PM me if you have some productive discussion to add.
 
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