Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc: Religion

[rickolasnice]

I had a quick read of posting rules and done a quick search but.. to be honest.. bluelights search function sucks No offence.

This thread is not meant to upset or anger anybody.

..

I'd like to know how anybody can believe in any one (if any) religion. I'll focus on Christianity as I know more about it.

To be a christian, you would have to believe in the Bible. In my opinion, Jesus and has Dad came from the bible. If you believe in Jesus and his Dad then logically you must believe in the bible.

But the bible is so full of contradictions, scientific impossibilities and down right horrible things.

God would order his men (strange thing for such a powerful being, don't you think?) to murder, rape and pillage areas or towns where the peoples would not accept God as the LORD. Bare in mind it would have been a small army of people claiming to speak the words of God. Pretty horrible stuff for a God of worship? The older stuff in the bible is full of a hateful, vengeful and spiteful God..

Then a long comes Jesus, his son, who for some reason he decided to make human.. teaching messages of love and kindness.. What is it God.. make up your mind. So yeah.. God sends his Son down.. which for some reason needed a woman to become pregnant with him to achieve.. to teach gods teachings? But they're not the same as earlier on in the book. Or maybe Jesus was his rebellious fuck you dad! kinda son.

So anyway.. God decides it would be a good idea if his Son was horribly tortured and crucified.. Nice God, nice Dad, ticking all the boxes. But it was for good reason, of course! Jesus died for our sins! I mean.. what is that even supposed to mean? Does that mean I can now sin all i want because Jesus died for them? Or did he only die for the people alive at his time of death? Why would a God require a human son to die for peoples sins? Could he not have simply pardoned them? Or accepted that he gave man free will so deal with it?

I'm also interested to know what happened every body that died before Jesus started spouting about that he's the son of god. I'm pretty sure they didn't have telephones, international TV or even the internet back in them days so how was the message expected to reach every person on the planet? Or did God not give 2 shits about them and sent them to hell anyway. Do new born babies go to heaven or hell? Do they spend eternity as a new born baby?

God created man in his image. Therefore are we not all parts of God? There is nothing we can do that could possibly be seen as bad in the eyes (or whatever he says) of God. God gave man free will.. sure.. but everything we do is because of God. Or is he not as powerful as he makes out to be?

To get in to heaven, all you have to do is repent...... Unless you're gay you are going to burn in hell..

I'm pretty sure that nobody on this planet has seen to or spoken to God or Jesus personally.. so why believe in the bible? Why are you not Muslim, Jew or Hindu? Are they all wrong? Are they all going to hell? Bare in mind most of their books outdate the Bible.. So what branch of Christianity are you? Church of England? Protestant? Roman Catholic? What one is the right one? Are the wrong ones going to hell?

May I ask how you think it possible to get 2 of every animal on to a boat? We can't even do that today with bigger boats. And can you explain how the world can flood from rain? Where did the rain come from? And where did it go?

If I were to tell you that I spoke to God last night.. he came to me in my sleep.. he sat with me in my room and told me that I am the chosen one. He told me I need to find a way to kill 80% of the worlds population. He told me he would help out a bit, with natural disasters, famine, disease and war but it was my job to build a following. I must spread this message to as many people as I can.. If you don't send me 50% of your current wealth then I am to kill you, rape your wife and burn your house down.. What would the difference be between my message and the old geezers in the middle east all those years ago?

Jesus was not mentioned in historical texts for at least 100 years after the birth of Christianity. Anything written about him after that wouldn't have been able to has seen him, spoke to him or even witnessed his existence due to the fact he was dead.. and had been for a long time.

 

[Shrooms00087]

In your mind what is God?

 

[rickolasnice]

I don't believe in a God..

I have no qualms with people that believe in a creator.. but these religions are not just about a creator.. They try to teach morals and politics and completely fail.. You either live by the book and be a complete wanker (people that don't believe in same god is a lesser person, women are lesser people, gay people are down right going to hell) or you don't live by the book.. you pick and choose what parts you like and what you don't.. which is a bit Don't you think?

This is the kind of shit religion causes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjnrLt3VuSM

Children are subjected to mean, cruel, confusing and sometimes even nasty things in the name of religion.. about being confused about masturbation / liking the opposite sex, getting force fed horror stories about hell and it's no secret how a lot of priests, vicars, etc like to rape and sexually abuse children.. think of the poor little boy who grows up to like other boys.. feeling wrong, disgusting, alone and damn scared he's going to burn in hell for eternity. Shit like "I need to rape you to get that demon out of you!".. "God hates fags!"..

There is no place for religion in this day and age.

 

[Shrooms00087]

Ah.

 

[Psyduck]

To be a christian, you would have to believe in the Bible.

Who says? To be a christian you have to believe in Christ and to repeat his existence (way of life). By the repetition of Christ's life -- agape in a world of communal suffering -- one becomes the most truthful a human being can be. The bible is not "objective truth." Christ didn't wrote the bible, you know. Christ himself was the truth, revealing what it means to be a human being: to live in a world of suffering and to still love your neighbor.

 

[rickolasnice]

But the only references we have to Jesus was the bible.. you can't just pick and choose what bits you want to believe in. If you believe he was the son of God then you believe in the spiteful control freak overlord.. How does the first half of the bible not contradict the second?

Sorry Psyduck but I don't need to believe I am repeating some ancient guys (of which there is little to no evidence of him ever existing) life to be a good person.

What do you mean the most truthful a human being can be? And living in a world of suffering and still loving thy neighbour is not what it means to be a human being. Our DNA, sure. The rest is cultural and societal. I'm pretty sure the Palestinians don't love thy neighbour.. does that make them less human?

Your God tells you to treat anyone from another religion as second class.. His son tells you to love them.. your god tells you to take lives, to take women for your own amusement.. his son tells you to turn the other cheek..

Why do you believe that Jesus was the son of God but Muhammed? There's a striking similarity between the stories of the 2, don't you think?

 

[Tromps]

O ye of little faith.

Let me just start by saying, I am a practicing Catholic, but I am very young and haven't been confirmed yet. All though I am working on it and still learning, so please bear with me if what I believe is hard to understand or doesn't make sense. Feel free to challenge me and my beliefs, it's good for me and I like the debate. Also I acknowledge that I may be very much wrong. I'll try to help answer some of your questions to the best of my own understanding, but this is what I believe.

The older stuff in the bible is full of a hateful, vengeful and spiteful God..

During the days before Christ, yes the world sounded like a very cruel place, and I think peoples understanding of God was very harsh and strict. The world was a fucked up place.

Then a long comes Jesus, his son, who for some reason he decided to make human.. teaching messages of love and kindness.. What is it God.. make up your mind.

Which is why Jesus came, to save the world from how awful it was becoming.

God decides it would be a good idea if his Son was horribly tortured and crucified..

I think it was more of the Jews and Romans that wanted him horribly tortured and crucified, Jesus was a blasphemy to many of his own people, they didn't believe he was the real Messiah, and wanted him crucified.

Does that mean I can now sin all i want because Jesus died for them?

I don't like this kind of mentality. As a Catholic I am learning it is faith in Jesus plus good works (being a good & loving person) that allows for salvation. Some of my Luthern friends believe that faith alone in Jesus will lead to heaven, and that self-righteousness or no matter how good you are it won't help you to enter heaven, since Jesus is the only one who can take our sin.

Or did he only die for the people alive at his time of death?

He died for everyone before him, everyone during his time, and everyone in the future.

Why would a God require a human son to die for peoples sins?

Who else? ... leads to next question.

Could he not have simply pardoned them? Or accepted that he gave man free will so deal with it?

He sure could of simply pardoned everyone. Except then we wouldn't of learned. I believe we have free will and that bad & evil things exist so that we may learn the difference between good & evil and right & wrong. We may be much better people in the end if we learn for ourselves.

God gave man free will.. sure.. but everything we do is because of God. Or is he not as powerful as he makes out to be?

Again, I believe God gave us free will so we may know the difference between good and evil. He is infinitely powerful, but also gave us our own power of free will.

To get in to heaven, all you have to do is repent...... Unless you're gay you are going to burn in hell..

As Catholic I believe you need a repentant heart and also strive to be a good and loving person to work towards heaven. I don't believe it's so black and white where you either to go heaven and hell at the time of death, like some other Christians believe. I believe in Purgatory and that if you believe plus strive to be a good person, you may work your way toward heaven. I am being taught heaven is a perfect place, free of sin, but you still have free will in heaven. Incredibly everyone there will be so holy that sin won't even cross your mind, even though you still have your free will (trips me out). My Luthern friend believes as long as you believe in Christ, all your imperfections will be removed from you, that your good works don't matter because Jesus did it. Except I say, if we have free will in heaven, but God removed all our impurities, how are we still free? I personally believe if your not perfect at the time of death (who is), but you believe in God, that you may make up for what you did wrong, so that then you will know for yourself what is good & right, hence being completely free from sin and evil once you enter heaven.

About the whole being gay and going to hell, the orientation itself isn't a sin, but engaging in homosexual behavior I now believe is a sin. Before I get 'flamed' (heh) a whole bunch for saying that, let me just say I actually considered myself to be gay growing up and through my teenage years, and had attractions toward the same-sex. Took a while for me to personally realize it isn't natural, and I no longer believe people are born gay, and now personally think homosexuality is environmentally conditioned. If I can change from gay to straight in my early adult life, I believe anyone can.

It's weird because in my early early teens years before I started using drugs, I was verry liberal and believed in gay marriage & pro-choice. Oddly enough over years of drug use (mainly psychedelics), I have become more conservative on social issues and can no longer support abortion or gay marriage with a clean conscious (sorry). My friend calls me homophobic and thinks I hate gay people, but I think the more loving thing to do would try to persuade people from sin. I actually use a verse from the bible to tell him the loving thing to do would not support the sin. As Jesus says "Whoever causes one ... to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of sea [then enter the kingdom of heaven]." (Mattrew 18:6) Harsh words for Jesus I know

Why are you not Muslim, Jew or Hindu? Are they all wrong? Are they all going to hell? Bare in mind most of their books outdate the Bible.. So what branch of Christianity are you? Church of England? Protestant? Roman Catholic? What one is the right one? Are the wrong ones going to hell?

Personally, I like to believe God today is a very forgiving God. In my view, many religions seem like different paths that lead to the same place. Just for my own beliefs, I wish/hope/want to think that no one will go to hell and at the very least people may enter purgatory and work their way to heaven if they so choose. But there are people who down right hate god and worship evil, which where hell would be the only place for them.

Faith. It can only be described as.

Good topic and thanks for the thought-provoking questions. I struggle with doubt all the time in the back of my head, even though I know that consciously I completely believe in Jesus and God.

But I have to admit, your link to that African video is very offensive to me, and I hope you don't stereotype all religious people into the same boat as those extremist fucks. The way those pigs are portraying it is wrong on all levels, but its Africa so what do you expect

I pray that Gods Will may be revealed to you someday, and that you find answers your looking for. I Hope, one day at the very least you may believe in Christ as Our Savior, and that there's an eternal life to come.

One of my friends doesn't like religion either, but he can relate to this guy :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY&feature=relmfu %)

 

[rickolasnice]

O ye of little faith.

Let me just start by saying, I am a practicing Catholic, but I am very young and haven't been confirmed yet. All though I am working on it and still learning, so please bear with me if what I believe is hard to understand or doesn't make sense. Feel free to challenge me and my beliefs, it's good for me and I like the debate. Also I acknowledge that I may be very much wrong. I'll try to help answer some of your questions to the best of my own understanding, but this is what I believe.

Fair do's I respect that. I will try and be as respectful as possible in my response.

During the days before Christ, yes the world sounded like a very cruel place, and I think peoples understanding of God was very harsh and strict. The world was a fucked up place.

What time period / geographical location are we talking about? Why did God wait for so long to send his son to teach people right and wrong? Right and wrong is a question of morals. Empathy and compassion are human traits as is greed and hate.. but these traits are not just human. Chimpanzees will look after their family members and group members but they will attack and kill chimps from another group. This kind of behaviour is seen throughout the higher intelligent animal kingdom. Dolphins, dogs, elephants, cats, etc.. Are chimps evil for attacking and killing another group or is it simply an evolved survival mechanism to keep control of territory, food and resources and to kill of competition so they can ensure the survival or their offspring and genes.

But then when we move down to lesser intelligent animals. Snakes don't seem to show any signs of empathy or love for anything, not even their offspring. Are these animals evil or do they simply lack the necessary biological and neurological capacity to feel those things. Are sharks evil? Eagles will care for and raise their chicks but will have no problem eating another animal alive.

Good and Evil are basically a human invention. Some people think that clubbing baby seals is good fun while others find it morally disgusting. Some people think that the media is evil and some think it as a good thing.. it can influence people in bad ways, it can influence people in good ways. Some people think religion or the church is evil. It's well known that a lot of churches will pray on the weak and vulnerable, that some high up priests will abuse small children.

Which is why Jesus came, to save the world from how awful it was becoming.

The world was a cruel place for thousands of years before Jesus. You could even argue that it was getting better, with the dawn of civilisation, trade and society.

I think it was more of the Jews and Romans that wanted him horribly tortured and crucified, Jesus was a blasphemy to many of his own people, they didn't believe he was the real Messiah, and wanted him crucified.

They were doing what God had told them to do. For he is the only LORD.. kill anyone who disagrees. Could the son of God not proved himself? Could God not have left a memo?

I don't like this kind of mentality. As a Catholic I am learning it is faith in Jesus plus good works (being a good & loving person) that allows for salvation. Some of my Luthern friends believe that faith alone in Jesus will lead to heaven, and that self-righteousness or no matter how good you are it won't help you to enter heaven, since Jesus is the only one who can take our sin.

Why do you need faith in Jesus to be a good and loving person? I'd class myself as a kind and loving person and I've never once took any lessons from Jesus. If Jesus is the only one who can take our sin, what happened to everybody that died before him? What about new born babies? Do you think people that have been raised in a different culture who have different beliefs deserve to go to hell for not believing in Jesus? What happens to the mentally retarded? What happens the tribes men who have never even heard of Jesus? What happens to apes? What happens to the fruit fly?

He died for everyone before him, everyone during his time, and everyone in the future.

But most of those people didn't believe in him.. or his dad. So he died for them and then sent them to hell?

He sure could of simply pardoned everyone. Except then we wouldn't of learned. I believe we have free will and that bad & evil things exist so that we may learn the difference between good & evil and right & wrong. We may be much better people in the end if we learn for ourselves.

I'm sorry but what did the world learn? More wars are fought over religion than anything else.. the crusades come to mind. If god created everything he must have created this so called "evil". Is that his idea of a sick joke? Don't get me wrong. Morals are good things to have. But morality was different back then. It was OK to keep slaves, to rape women and to murder anyone who opposed the LORD. So in them days it was not evil to do these things.. seeing as God ordered it on a fair few occasion.. Would it be considered evil now?

And as for our lesson.. Take a look around.. nobody learned a damn thing.

Again, I believe God gave us free will so we may know the difference between good and evil. He is infinitely powerful, but also gave us our own power of free will.

So we have the free will to decide wether or not we want to believe in a being we have no evidence of.. but no matter how "good" we are in life.. we are going to hell. I haven't seen much of Gods work around recently.. unless he is responsible (in which he must be, being as powerful as he is) for the famine, disease, war, natural disasters, the death of new born babies and the horrible, nasty people that never get any punishment.

As Catholic I believe you need a repentant heart and also strive to be a good and loving person to work towards heaven. I don't believe it's so black and white where you either to go heaven and hell at the time of death, like some other Christians believe. I believe in Purgatory and that if you believe plus strive to be a good person, you may work your way toward heaven. I am being taught heaven is a perfect place, free of sin, but you still have free will in heaven.

Why do you believe in purgatory? Is it written in the bible? If not, how do you know that is what Jesus wants you to believe? I believe (and i honestly mean no disrespect by this) that you are being taught that heaven is a perfect place to get and keep you interested, to keep you supplying them with money and free labour in the form of advertising..

And how can you have free will in a place free of sin? What do you consider to be a sin? What if i got to heaven and wanted to sin?

Incredibly everyone there will be so holy that sin won't even cross your mind, even though you still have your free will (trips me out). My Luthern friend believes as long as you believe in Christ, all your imperfections will be removed from you, that your good works don't matter because Jesus did it. Except I say, if we have free will in heaven, but God removed all our impurities, how are we still free? I personally believe if your not perfect at the time of death (who is), but you believe in God, that you may make up for what you did wrong, so that then you will know for yourself what is good & right, hence being completely free from sin and evil once you enter heaven.

How do you know what you consider right and wrong is what Jesus would consider right and wrong? Do you think Jesus would advocate the use of a petrol powered car? Or the wearing of clothes made in chinese sweat shops? Or the tolerance of allowing a Muslim to walk on by without so much as a word? What if somebody did no wrong, they helped people who needed help and never hurt anyone, but didn't believe in God or Jesus. What if that person was Muslim or Jewish (although you do share the same god).. what if they were protestant as opposed to catholic?

About the whole being gay and going to hell, the orientation itself isn't a sin, but engaging in homosexual behavior I now believe is a sin. Before I get 'flamed' (heh) a whole bunch for saying that, let me just say I actually considered myself to be gay growing up and through my teenage years, and had attractions toward the same-sex. Took a while for me to personally realize it isn't natural, and I no longer believe people are born gay, and now personally think homosexuality is environmentally conditioned. If I can change from gay to straight in my early adult life, I believe anyone can.

Oh wow man you've just made me sad. When you say environmentally conditioned.. How? I'm not saying that's not sometimes the case but it's not as simple as that. You can grow up in the most gay hating environment and still turn out gay. Come on man be honest with yourself, you are gay. There is nothing unnatural about it. There is nothing wrong with it. It is not evil. How can 2 people expressing love for one another in whatever way they want, without harming anyone, be wrong? Who does it hurt? Nobody. The church, on the other hand, hurt and destroy a lot of people. I'm actually upset by this part of your post. May i ask what kind of background you have? Were you raised in a christian house hold?

How can homosexuality not be a natural thing when it happens, and always has, all over the world, in all different cultures in all different races? Arg now I'm angry. Sorry man but i really do hate religion.. Animals of all different species have displayed homosexual tendencies.. you can't tell me they were conditioned by society.

It's weird because in my early early teens years before I started using drugs, I was verry liberal and believed in gay marriage & pro-choice. Oddly enough over years of drug use (mainly psychedelics), I have become more conservative on social issues and can no longer support abortion or gay marriage with a clean conscious (sorry). My friend calls me homophobic and thinks I hate gay people, but I think the more loving thing to do would try to persuade people from sin. I actually use a verse from the bible to tell him the loving thing to do would not support the sin. As Jesus says "Whoever causes one ... to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of sea [then enter the kingdom of heaven]." (Mattrew 18:6) Harsh words for Jesus I know

What would you consider a Sin? I'd be interested in a list. Gay marriage is not something I understand, tbh. Marriage is a religious ceremony.. and the religion says "YOU GONNA BURN IN HELL!" .. I just don't see why they'd want to. But you're against abortion as well? What if the baby was going to be born severely disabled and live a tortured life? What if the mother just couldn't take care of it and she knew it? You do know brain activity doesn't start until very late in the pregnancy.. it doesn't have a consciousness. What abortion was banned. The global population gets too much and we destroy the planet, raping it of it's resources until it can barely support life?

Personally, I like to believe God today is a very forgiving God. In my view, many religions seem like different paths that lead to the same place. Just for my own beliefs, I wish/hope/want to think that no one will go to hell and at the very least people may enter purgatory and work their way to heaven if they so choose. But there are people who down right hate god and worship evil, which where hell would be the only place for them.

Your personal own beliefs? I'm sorry but don't we already know that God is very spiteful, vengeful and to be honest.. he seems more evil than any living person on earth. Like i said earlier people can have their beliefs but if you believe in God and Jesus then you must believe in the bible.. You can't pick out what bits you like, twist some bits that aren't so great and completely ignore the horrible stuff.

Good topic and thanks for the thought-provoking questions. I struggle with doubt all the time in the back of my head, even though I know that consciously I completely believe in Jesus and God.

I suggest you listen to that doubt. What all powerful, all loving God would cause innocent people so much suffering?

But I have to admit, your link to that African video is very offensive to me, and I hope you don't stereotype all religious people into the same boat as those extremist fucks. The way those pigs are portraying it is wrong on all levels, but its Africa so what do you expect

No of course not. It's not religious people that get to me.. it's religion itself.. I believe it to be a poison.. It brain washes people, guilt trips people and lies to people about eternal bliss so it can control and manipulate people to gain wealth and power and possibly more dark and horrible reasons. Look at how many cases there have been of children being molested by authorities within the catholic church, and how it tries to cover it up. What God would allow that?

I pray that Gods Will may be revealed to you someday, and that you find answers your looking for. I Hope, one day at the very least you may believe in Christ as Our Savior, and that there's an eternal life to come.

Please stop praying for me.. that actually made me angry. I hope that one day you will come to your senses and realise you were a much better man before you "found" Christ. I hope one day you will find happiness and love for yourself without the need of an excuse to do so.

 

[Psyduck]

Sorry Psyduck but I don't need to believe I am repeating some ancient guys (of which there is little to no evidence of him ever existing) life to be a good person.

Who says you does? How will proving that Christ was real be anyhow relevant for being a good guy.

As I see it, Christ is not even "merely" a physical person, but rather the Incarnated Moral Soul of the world. Whether Christ exists or not depends on the fact that people keep on re-enacting the life of Christ today (love thy neighbor, compassion, forgiveness, etc..). If society really became convinced that our situation is just a Darwinist struggle-for-life, that the only aim is to maximize one's own selfish goals, or that the only thing worth doing is building gigantic telescopes to look into space or build a collider to find the elementary particles... if you think that's what being a human being is about in the first place... well yeah, then Christ is dead... On the other hand, if people are still convinced that it's worthy to help other people in a world of suffering, to build hospitals in Africa, to help the less fortunate, to forgive others for their mistakes, to love each other... then Christ is still alive (regardless whether or not God was present in the universe 2000 years ago, or whether or not the bible is fictitious).

 

[Foreigner]

This thread is mostly tl;dr so I'll just add my $0.02.

Religion to me represents a point on the line of human evolution. It's easy to go off on a rant about how religion took over everything and controlled people's minds but really that's not the point. Men of power will always be attracted to any institution that holds sway over people, which is why power corrupts religion just as it does any other authority. But that's not what religion was supposed to be about.

People easily discard religion now because, for the most part, we are moving into a freer-thinking paradigm where access to information is relatively limitless. People don't need the holy classes of society as much anymore. Knowledge is less restricted and is less limited according to physical resources. Also, we're more global now whereas religion was regionalized and corresponded to specific cultures.

If you study a bit of every religion you will start to see a core truth come out of all of them that looks the same universally. Religion is just a way of digesting that truth through specific sociocultural lenses. It has and to some extent still does serve that purpose, but now that the information age is upon us there is no excuse to be lazy by limiting yourself to ignorance. It baffles my mind how people still let their religion limit their learning progress in an era where they could start to go beyond it and learn new things that actually complement it.

The future of spirituality is going to be shaped in an old meets new way, combining science, religion, metaphysics, and natural spirituality into one ecclectic system. The old world is fighting hard to keep power but it's not destined to last.

 

[Belisarius]

RE OP
Kierkegaard basically said everything you did: in short, that to be an actual Christian (which he was) was to experience a constant tension between what you believe in and its inherent irrationality. If you glossed over its absurdities, you were no longer a true Christian, since you had lapsed into complacency rather than honesty. In that way, it's a little like Sartre's idea of "bad faith", IMO.

 

[malakaix]

There's a lot of text here, as I'd expect with a topic like religion.

Foreigner summed up most of it, I just want to point out.. if you look at a book such as the bible literally it's naturally going to cause you frustration and honestly I don't understand the point of getting worked up over it..

When you really look at religion, there's distinct similarities all attempting to convey truth; Christian mysticism is very metaphorical in its description of this, whereas something like Buddhism is very clear-cut. There all just different means of interpreting the eternal silence.

It's all about integration.

I'll take my leave from this thread now

 

[rachamim]

Many people make the huge mistake of assuming that the 3 so called "Abrahamic Religions" are similar to one another, they are not. The OP asks how people can believe in Christianity; most Christians- just as with any faith- are born into it and exist in cultures and/or nations in which most people adhere to the same religion. Most people never question the faith they were born into. For me, a non-Christian, the religion makes little sense. Most Christians deify Jesus, who, if he lived at all, was merely a religious Jew with no apparently unusual pretensions given the fact that there were many dozens of popular and charismatic itinerant teachers roaming the countryside with devoted acolytes at that time- personall, my favourite is Choni the Circle Maker whose teachings make much more sense than Jesus' nasty and bigoted comments...which brings me to my next point; I don't understand how any rational adult could believe in a faith that promotes itself based upon love, compassion and selflessness AS LONG AS you accept it. In other words, "Jesus loves you so much that he died for you! But if you don't accept him he condemns you to the bowels of hell to suffer the worst torments imaginable." What kind of love is THAT? No thanks. Finally, the entire faith, based upon the accepted canons, is irrational. Take for example the claim that Jesus was/is the Messiah as predicted by Judaic Scripture. The main rationale utilised by Christians of all denominations is the stated claim that Jesus meets the Prophecies of Isaiah and Nathan which state that the Messiah will be of the Davidic line. This is why we see the so called New Testament list Jesus' paternal genealogy. This genealogy is extremely problematic for two very good reasons. First, there are two genealogies offered, A) Luke 3:23, B) Matthew 1:1. Neither corroborates the other (post-David) with only Joseph being the same in both.

Jews treat geneaologies as almost sacred records, as an example mine is impeccable to the 9th Century CE/AD, so to have such confusion over such a vital issue defies understanding. Moreover, most Christian denominations deify Jesus. IF you believe that Jesus was divine you negate his geneaology altogether since Joseph is then no longer his father (although theologians and laymen alike have tried every which way to reconcile this uncomfortable reality). IF Joseph is no longer his father, he is no longer of the Davidic line, and his only real claim to being the prophesised Messiah entirely evaporates.

Then, there is the repeated message concerning his raison d'etre. Jesus states that he is only concerned about Jews. In fact, in Luke we hear Jesus tell a pitiful old non-Jewish woman that she is nothing but a mangy bitch not worthy of attention. It is Paul that takes a Jewish variant (the Jesus Cult) and re-packages it for non-Jewish tastes. Christianity SHOULD be called "Paulism."

As for Islam, it is even more unbelievable. Abrogation renders its Holy Scripture (al Qur'an) meaningless (unless of course you are a Muslim), since most every stricture within is contradicted by another, with only the last in chronological order holding any weight.

It makes almost childish mistakes in incorrectly utilising both Judaic and Christian Scripture. Labeling Mary, mother of Jesus as a sister of Aaron (and therefore Moses) is one widely known gaffe. Utilising Gnoticism (the belief that Jesus shapeshifted while on the cross and stood laughing at his tormentors- and his mourners- as an innocent "look alike" suffered in his stead is Gnoticism 101) also deeply contradicts Islam's proud claim that it revolves entirely around strict monotheism.

The belief that both Judaism and Christianity conspired to deny Muhammad his rightful place as the Prophecised "Messenger" is the epitome of a Conspiracy Theory and defies rational belief.

Then there are beliefs that should seem imbecilic to any modern person. For example, believing that when the sun sets it submerges into a muddy pool of water, that mountains hold up the skies, that only Allah can know the gender of an unknown child and many more. Also troubling is the faith's brutal misogyny. Sura 4:34 instructs husbands to beat their disagreeable wives. Perhaps that would be acceptable in 7th Century Arabia but in most places today that would be a despicable criminal offence.

Finally, Islam is inherently racist and supremacist in its outlook. Dhimmitude relegates fellow monotheists to sub-human status and non-monotheists to non-human status. It views the world in strictly black and white terms; concepts like "Duwas," al Khalifa, and other basic concepts that render it entirly incompatible with Western oriented Humanistic thought and practice.

Judaism I find to be an exception. It earns my respect by not viewing itself as the universal panacea for all that ails humanity. It does not teach that is the only path to salvation. It respects all positivity no matter the label attached to it. This to me sets it above and beyond the other 2 monotheistic faiths.

 

[rachamim]

Rickolasnice: 'Religion causes more wars than any other single cause.': That is a very common misconception. Virtually every war that has ever happened takes place due to competition to monopolise natural resources.

'What about the Crusades?': The Crusades took place after Europe underwent a rapid population expansion that produced a surplus of males in the upper tiers of society. Theretofore wealthy families with surplus sons dedicated them to the Church to avoid subdividing land amongst heirs to the point of tenability. However, there were so many males that even the Church sought to remedy that over-abundance. At the same time European trade had expanded so rapidly that extant trade routes and trade outlets could scarcely service the demand, Killing 2 birds with 1 stone the Church looked outward to the Levant as a safety valve and in doing so obtained a win:win:win situation.

'How can G-D exist amidst famines, plagues and other grossly tragic events?': If we accept the premise of Freewill it is humanity that creates these things, or the conditions conducive to these things.

'How can G-D cause good people to suffer?': Again, you are negating Freewill. G-D provides us with all the needed tools. What we do with those tools is our perogative.

'What would Jesus think of automobiles and their petrol based emissions?':
IF Jesus even existed he was an ultra-religious Jew so that his views would revolve around Jewish Law, "Halacha." Oversized carbon footprints would be viewed as a necessary evil.

'What would Jesus think of sweatshoppes and exploitive labour practices?': He would definitely be for fair labour practices but he just might own a sweatshoppe himself. There is no conflict with running a factory with long hours and geared for maximum profitability as long as basic standards were adhered to.

'What would Jesus think about co-existence with other religious groups?': We have the answer to that in his own words: "My message is only for the lost sheep of Israel."

'What would Jesus think about co-existence with Islam in particular?': Given Islam's inherent Anti-Semitism he would despise it.

'Is homosexuality a sin?': No, as the poster you are answering told you, it is only the actions that are sinful- not the inclination.

'How can it be sinful if it is found throughout the natural world?': Humans are endowed with the ability to control their actions.

'Is marriage a religious convention?': It is a societal convention that is often framed in a religious context.

'Is abortion sinful in all circumstances?': Not when it saves a mother's life. The extant life trumps the nascent life.

'Do foetuses not develop brainwaves until late in the pregnancy?': Wrong. 6 weeks after conception is not "late."

'G-D is vengeful, spiteful and more evil than any human.': You are anthromorphosising, presuming, and assuming in human terms.

'Religion exists so as to channel wealth and labour to a select few while offering no tangible benefit to adherants.': Religion exists because humans are unable to deal with G-D on G-D's terms. Think of it as an intecessionary device, a middleman so to speak.

'Look at the Catholic Church and the molestation scandals. What kind of G-D would allow that?': G-D did not "invent" or create the Catholic Church. Humans created it and so like all human creations it is wrought with vulnerabilities and frailities.

 

[rangrz]

@Rach: One of the rare times we agree on something! Of the Abrahamic religions (and religions in general) I find Judaism to be the most respectable, most firmly grounded in logic and from personal exp, I have only rarely had persons of Jewish faith treat me with bigotry or contempt, compared with Isalm and Christianity, with which it has been rather common.

 

[Shrooms00087]

Most Christians deify Jesus, who, if he lived at all, was merely a religious Jew with no apparently unusual pretensions given the fact that there were many dozens of popular and charismatic itinerant teachers roaming the countryside with devoted acolytes at that time- personall, my favourite is Choni the Circle Maker whose teachings make much more sense than Jesus' nasty and bigoted comments...which brings me to my next point; I don't understand how any rational adult could believe in a faith that promotes itself based upon love, compassion and selflessness AS LONG AS you accept it. In other words, "Jesus loves you so much that he died for you! But if you don't accept him he condemns you to the bowels of hell to suffer the worst torments imaginable." What kind of love is THAT? No thanks. Finally, the entire faith, based upon the accepted canons, is irrational. Take for example the claim that Jesus was/is the Messiah as predicted by Judaic Scripture. The main rationale utilised by Christians of all denominations is the stated claim that Jesus meets the Prophecies of Isaiah and Nathan which state that the Messiah will be of the Davidic line. This is why we see the so called New Testament list Jesus' paternal genealogy. This genealogy is extremely problematic for two very good reasons. First, there are two genealogies offered, A) Luke 3:23, B) Matthew 1:1. Neither corroborates the other (post-David) with only Joseph being the same in both.

Historical Jesus seems to me a silly viewpoint from which to read the texts. I mean do you believe Moses split the tides of the Red Sea? As far as the bigotry involved, equally as useless in my mind. Paul ran around persecuting Christians and then converted and played a hand in the binding of the New Testament, bigotry was the game of winning culture. "Paulism" for sure. I've been reading Perennial Philosophy where Huxley makes a valid point (and Campbell comes very close to the same reading), that the Crucifixion was Christ dying to selfness (Latin: Persona/Mask) then going through Hell and transcending thereafter. Also, if the scripture says; "The Kingdom of God is within you" so too must Hell be. At Golgotha (skull) Christ became Total/Absolute* in the Gnostic sense. With it, the Holy Spirit and community based upon 'love' the virtue and egalitarian beliefs.

 

[buffalosoldier]

love is the universal religion so stop arguing people!

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

I find Judaism to be the most respectable, most firmly grounded in logic

It most definitely is, aside from a very pro-intellectual cultural tradition, I think we can differentiate Judaism from Christianity and Islam in this regard because it is an ethnic religion. Jewishness is something that exists independently of the religion of Judaism, so a broad degree of belief sets are allowed and encouraged within the framework of their tradition since it does not threaten the integrity of the overall system. Christianity and Islam however, only have theology to unite them, so theological differences are an existential threat, and free-thought (outside of the box anyway) is going to be discouraged. Also, the heavy eschatological focus of the latter religions also isn't doing them any good in comparison to Judaism, which is much more focused on living and enjoying this life (if you look at the Pentateuch, there isn't even a clear conception of an afterlife).

Also, I would like to apologize for some rudeness to you previously, I was being a hypocritical jerk.

I'm also interested to know what happened every body that died before Jesus started spouting about that he's the son of god.

IIRC, according to the Roman Catholic tradition, Jesus descended into Hell after the crucifixion and preached the Gospel to souls there so they might be saved. Anyway, go read some basics about the religious traditions online, most of your questions should be answered pretty quickly.

 

[rickolasnice]

Kinda takes the discussion out of my idea for a discussion.

 

[rachamim]

Shroom: I do not look at the Bible as a whole as a historical document. From the last few Davidic and Omride kings of Judaea and Ancient Israel and up until Maccabbi II (Maccabbi not being part of the Judaic Canon and only part of some Christian Canons, it is a shame since it is spot on historically and is a valuable source of Jewish History. IF Jews can celebrate Chanukkah, a Hasmonean holiday, they should be able to include the Hasmonean History as well, Maccabbi I and II ) it is a very reliable historical document corroborated by arcaeology and non Judaic historical documents. It is before and after that interval where is is largely unreliable historically. As for Moses and the Red Sea, there is nothing to suggest he ever actually lived. That said, most myths do have a kernel of truth.

I don't understand your point about Jesus going to hell after the Crucifixtion. I mean, I am well aware of Catholic tradition but what was the point by Huxley and Cambell, and by Cambell you mean Joseph Cambell?

As for Heaven and Hell, these were Greco-Roman concepts pure and simple (as is so much of Christianity, from its usual Sabbath to Xmas itself). We Jews believe Heaven and Hell are here on Earth and it is up to us to create one or the other in our own lifetime. Death is sleep until the Day of Ressurection. The unrighteous will simply continue sleeping while the righteous will be ressurected.

Rangrz: There is hope for you yet hahaha.

NeverKnowsBest: You made an excellent point about why Judaism is so conducive to positive ideological evolution. I never considered your point but it is 100 percent on the mark. Christiand and Muslims merely exist as a common ideology whereas Jews can abandon Judaism and still they will always remain ethnically Jewish.