Ecstasy HR Question that I have no valid answer to

[futura2012]

I was reading about bunk pills and was horrified to see an emerging problem

Small trace of MDMA HCL

Mountains of Research Chemicals

Caffeine Powder for filler

Coloured Dye

PVA for Binder

Food Mixer

Tablet Die

Tablet Press

Very Nasty 'MDMA' Tablet



Seems this is a story that appears again and again.

The USA is riddled with this problem.

The tablet contains maybe 20mG MDMA at most.

Your test produces a positive for MDMA.

(imagine) It contains RC adulterants that cannot be detected.

(imagine) You are faced with a pill you have never seen before.

(imagine) Its not yet on Pill Reports, you cant see it on Ecstasy Data.


Other than throwing the pill away I cannot think what else I would advise.

Does this now mean if a pill is not on pill reports but tests for MDMA you bin it?

What do you do?

This is an HR question I dont know the answer to.

 

[bananadesu]

this is why I find the test kits kind of useless especially for molly because it could have only trace amount of mdma for it to show positive on the test, and most of it filler of some kind..
so... melting point would be the only accurate test?

 

[Darksidesam]

Excellent point futura ,

Tbh i dont know myself what id do in that situation!

 

[futura2012]

hello bananadesu It was your words that inspired this post

If say you took a sample of a pill the problem you are faced with if using Melting Point Test is that dyes, binders, fillers, RCs, MDMA (all the stuff in the pics) all have different melting points.

If you put a pill scratch in a Melting Point Cappiliary Tube the compound with the lowest melting point will melt first. That is the only compound that I think you will identify.

The only thing you could then do is look at isolation techniques but without knowing what chemicals you are up against this would require quite a high skill level of chemistry.

I will be honest with you this issue has me CONFUSED. I dont know what advice to give.

Vader would be a good guy to consult about this.

Excellent point futura ,

Tbh i dont know myself what id do in that situation!

Cheers Sam I think I might nudge some of the ADD crew and see what they have to say?

 

[JWills20]

I'm just thankful we don't have to go near pills in the UK. I only plan on taking tested crystal MDMA.

 

[blah blah]

You send it in to edata yourself...

First test appearing to be MDMA only...

http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30077#comments

Second test of god knows what...

http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30130#comments

Third test, again confusing. Edata submission made...

http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30135#comments

Fourth report with odd tests, but a closer Mecke hit...

http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30200#comments

A couple of reports come out with no pictures of pills or test results saying these are legit MDMA only presses...

...and this is what we get...

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2605

Just enough MDMA in some poorly mixed contents of presses to fool test kits. So, when in doubt! Get it to edata. That's the only way to truly know what's in there, even if everything tests up perfect. It's really the only option we have to KNOW what's in our pills for those who care enough to know without a doubt what they're taking.

Futura, I know this doesn't fit your description perfectly on not seeing them on edata or PR, I simply wanted to show my point in how your own tests can be fooled and why edata submissions are critical to know for sure what you have.

 

[futura2012]

Futura, I know this doesn't fit your description perfectly on not seeing them on edata or PR, I simply wanted to show my point in how your own tests can be fooled and why edata submissions are critical to know for sure what you have.

No worries blah what you have submitted there is great. Thanks for your efforts digging all that stuff out.

It is a great illustration of the entire thread. That is one mighty nasty pill.

This is exactly the issue. This breed of pill is confusing the hell out of me as I literally dont what to advise?

In his request for alternative tests I suggested a melting point test to bananadesu in his thread. When he actually came back to me and said where do I buy the equipment and how do I do it I suddenly realised why.

It seems this new batch of pills with very low MDMA content is one step ahead of the personal marquis tests and they are being manufactured to trick the tests.

The most awful thing about them is they contain a whole mixture including MDMA and BZP or Piperazine equiv and that double hit on the P450s just totally fucks people up. (As we all know so well!)

It so irrates me that ecstasydata cannot show quantitive contents. I am sorry but the DEA suck on this issue. The really annoying thing is when a lab wants to bypass this restriction they just produce one active substance such as MDMA and then fill the rest of the pill with caffeine. The GCMS detects the ratios and from the pill weight the user can then figure out the actual quantities.

This restriction only harms the user. This is awful Public Relations for the DEA as the only person that suffers is the user not the lab or dealer.


The main issue with submitting pills to Edata Blah is the average user just never bothers. There must be something else more simple that can be done.

I have been looking through ADD threads and sent a few PMs out to people that can hopefully help.

One of the mods Sekio is one extremely clued up individual that can hopefully come up with a plan to help. It will probably involve some kind of isolation techniques but how practical this might be I dont know.

I might also start an additional ADD thread to hash this out.

 

[Folley]

I might also start an additional ADD thread to hash this out.

I think this is less of a problem than you're making it out to be...


It happens, for sure, but it never reliably "fools" the kit. A new user may be fooled, but anyone that knows what a REAL MDxx reaction looks like should be able to tell when the MDxx and other chemicals are combined.

The results always look like shit, usually very watery with an pipe + MDMA combo, and a mix of the two colors when MDMA is mixed with other reacting chemicals (meth, MDPV, or what have you)

Some examples:
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=29579
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=23689
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=21580
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=21578
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=27344


I've yet to see an MDxx reaction COMPLETELY cover the reaction of another chemical, and especially when the pill only contains 10mg of MDMA compared to 50mg of a piperazine mix.. it's fucking obvious with a reagent haha.

If pills were containing MDMA with tiny amounts of piperazines (basically, the opposite of what they are doing) I would be more worried about the kits being able to fool anyone who knows what to look for in a reaction



Take this pill for instance:
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2404
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=27970

(same pill, with user reports and lab tests)

Users report being able to eat large amounts of these pills with no negative effects... but they are confirmed to contain TFMPP as well... that's the only time I haven't seen an MDxx + Other pill that's reaction wasn't obviously adulterated



Otherwise, they are likely to look closer to this:
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=23689
with lab results:
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2021

 

[Darksidesam]

It's not as bad here in the UK but even i have suffered a bad pill before.

It was either a Pipe or PMA.
The high felt like i just kept coming up and wouldnt stop coming up on it, to the point where it was exhausting,

 

[Folley]

Pretty sure he's not just talking about bad pills, as anyone with a reagent will know right away what it is... but instead he's talking about a pill that contains both MDxx and another substance, one that might fool the test kit...

 

[JimSteele]

As discussed at several points above: Keep an eye out for watery test results, and edata when in doubt.

Even 30mg MDMA:1 pills will turn the entire marquis puddle purple black

 

[avcpl]

won't old reagents also give either slow or watery reactions too? (I don't know how long it takes before they do, I think I read they should be less than a year old?)

I'm wondering what happens to those pills when someone buys a bag and they do test positive for MDMA, but not quite as fast a reaction or clear as they would hope...
take them anyway? (they do have mdma...)
send to edata for further testing?
try to get money back from dealer?
sell them to someone else?

I'm guessing most take them anyway, but that's just a guess.

 

[Folley]

won't old reagents also give either slow or watery reactions too? (I don't know how long it takes before they do, I think I read they should be less than a year old?)

Reagents turn a brownish yellow over time, that's usually the best way to tell if they're expired (the mecke and such already has a bit of a dirty yellow look to it, but it gets darker with time)



There is also a difference between a reaction that didn't react all the way, and a non-reaction mixing with a black reaction... if you stir the reagent (after your testing) the black reaction should be able to completely fill the puddle, leaving no remaining clear parts.



The pills we need to be worried about usually contain like 10-15mg of MDMA max and probably 50+mg of piperazine and possibly caffeine as well... I have no doubt that anyone with a competent brain on their shoulders would be able to see that something is wrong with that reaction.



If it doesn't look right the first time, do it again... if it's consistently reacting nasty and you're not getting those nice dark puddles, that's when you might consider sending it in for testing.

 

[futura2012]

I wouldn’t say labs but I would say pressers are making these pills to maximise profit by having as little MDMA as possible.

It seems in the USA a good source of MDMA is hard to obtain as a result expensive. Hence the driving force to produce these bunk pills.

With the DEA clamp down now on labs I assume America closely followed by Australia are the worst hit by this issue.

Seems the pressers of these pills usually go for a piperazine combo. I can only assume this is because the stuff is easy to source, cheap and perhaps less of a penalty if you get caught with it as opposed to a meth adulterant etc.

this summary was good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pill_testing

I dont see any direct reaction to piperazines or RCs. Am I wright in saying that to see the RCs or piprazines you are just observing the dark purple purple puddle and how well it forms?

If so seems a bit flimsy in terms of identification.

Tests range from relatively accurate like in folleys write up to relatively poor like in blah blahs.

Perhaps as someone put it on ADD a specific Reagent Test would do this. Something specific to piperazine.

Is there not one of these piperazine reagents already available?


Just to follow on from bananas point. Melting Point could be useful for MDMA rocks. But to be honest if you are looking for adulterants seems like Reagent tests are going to be better. Not ideal but better.

Here are some interesting ADD responses to this topic so far:

Thank you to the ADD crew for their input on this

Hey futura, you got a quite complicated subject there.

MP analysis can be rather sensitive, so that even relatively pure substances can have too low melting points. A pill is a complex mixture, besides MDMA they at least contain fillers which could easily be enough to fuck the MP up. The lowest melting substance does not necessarily melt first. It could potentially form a mixture with another chemical which melts at a lower temp than any of its components (look up some info about eutectic mixtures if you're interested). I'd expect a pill scratch and even extracts to have a 'bad' melting point, even if the pill is only reasonably pure MDMA+fillers.
Because of that MP analysis is only suitable for very well known systems (industrially used alloys and such) and for almost pure substances to check if it's pure or not.
I guess, with regard to obtainable informations, the MP is worse than colour reactions.

Fractional crystallization won't help unless the major component of the pill is MDMA.

Silica chromatography is basically suspending the MDMA on fine white ovendried sand and "washing" it selectively off with the right mixture of solvents. It's the "gold standard" for fishing out compounds from messy mixtures, but it wouldn't really help to do it on tiny volumes, too much work for too little compound.

 

[Folley]

Is there not one of these piperazine reagents already available?

There is an mcPP test from EZ Test, but it's completely useless. Even MDMA will set it off, so if your looking for adulterants that kit means little to probably nothing at all to you.

I dont see any direct reaction to piperazines or RCs.

Piperazines reaction is a non-reaction, AFAIK it actually turns the puddle clear. If you try and mix a non reaction from pipes and a black reaction from MDxx by stirring them, the two colors won't mix hardly at all and kind of just swirl together. As for RCs, well it depends on what your talking about.

5-MeO-DiPT has no reaction in a pill, but it's a bit uncommon, outside the US especially, and the doses for it are like >10mg

Cathinones like methylone, MDPV, MPA and more will all turn the reagent a yellow/rusty orange color

Psychedelics like 2C-B, DOx and 4-AcO-DMT will turn a reagent green

amphetamines (including the fluorinated amphetamine 4-FA) will turn a reagent a rusty brownish orange



and good ol' methylenedioxy structures will turn a reagent a beautiful purple/black... except for MDPV, because that is a cathinone.

 

[futura2012]

I am a bit more genned up on test kits now so can address this issue in more detail.

This is how I interpreted the test results off the EZ site.

There is an mcPP test from EZ Test, but it's completely useless. Even MDMA will set it off, so if your looking for adulterants that kit means little to probably nothing at all to you.

MDMA sets this test off what is this evidence based upon? The piperazine test seems quite specific. Only testing for mcpp or tfmpp. Would appear to go yellow. 6-APB > orangey rusty colour.

Piperazines reaction is a non-reaction, AFAIK it actually turns the puddle clear. If you try and mix a non reaction from pipes and a black reaction from MDxx by stirring them, the two colors won't mix hardly at all and kind of just swirl together.

You mean in terms of how Marquis reacts with piperazine?

The website specifies this

"This test will NOT show a color change when in contact with mCPP and other piperazines and PMA/PMMA."

On this basis seems like quite a flimsy test to rely on. Particularly as they say it wont test for piperazine.

There is nothing in the instructions detailing any form of "clear" indicating piperazine.

5-MeO-DiPT has no reaction in a pill, but it's a bit uncommon, outside the US especially, and the doses for it are like >10mg

Ehrlich detects 5-MeO-DiPT by going pinkey purple colour

Cathinones like methylone, MDPV, MPA and more will all turn the reagent a yellow/rusty orange color

Marquis - Methylone Yellow, MDPV Yellow. MPA not listed. Also lists Butylone, Naphyrone, MDPPP

Psychedelics like 2C-B, DOx and 4-AcO-DMT will turn a reagent green

Marquis - 2CB green, Dox not listed, 4-AcO-DMT not listed

amphetamines (including the fluorinated amphetamine 4-FA) will turn a reagent a rusty brownish orange

Marquis - Meth / Amphetamine - Rusty Red / 4-FA not listed

and good ol' methylenedioxy structures will turn a reagent a beautiful purple/black... except for MDPV, because that is a cathinone.

Mecke - MDMA, MDE, MDA - Range of green
Marquis - MBDB, MDMA, MDE, MDA - Range of Purple
Mandelin - MBDB, MDMA, MDE, MDA - Range of Purple
MDPV - Not listed

Where did you get your list of the extra chemicals?

Are you using just a Marquis test?


If we look at the blue skull candy it contains caffeine 4, TFMPP 3, BZP 2, MDMA 1, Meth trace, tablet Weight 284mG.

If we assume the caffeine is the "inert" filler. Doses are as follows: (dont the DEA with their restrictions suck ass!!)

TFMPP - 85mG
BZP - 57mG
MDMA - 28mG
CAFFEINE - 114mG

My theory is this pill has been designed specifically to fool the test kits.

The test that Folley describes using "clear" to identify the pipe is clearly "winging" it as EZ state Marquis wont test for Pipes

This press have added trace meth to darken the clarity folley describes

The 28mG MDMA with the trace meth in the mix the test gets picked up as dark

Hence all the fuck ups on pill reports often reporting MDMA

This pill contains 57mG BZP and 28mG MDMA. If I had personally eaten this after seeing these "Pill Reports" I would be in a very poor way.

On the basis of this conclusion I would have to disagree with what you have said here folley:

I think this is less of a problem than you're making it out to be...

It happens, for sure, but it never reliably "fools" the kit. A new user may be fooled, but anyone that knows what a REAL MDxx reaction looks like should be able to tell when the MDxx and other chemicals are combined.

It would seem a trace of meth and a small dose of MDMA can sometimes make for a dark reaction.

Hence this latest breed of pill designed specifically to fool test kits.



Please can we move forward with this thread now on the basis that tests can be fooled and maybe seek alternatives.

Hence my original post and also request to ADD asking for further help.

Perhaps a request to EZ asking for further effort for piperazine identification?

Does piperazine dissolve in water like MDMA salt?

Are there other kits that will test for piperazine other than the EZ one?

I wondered if UV light might ID the MDMA but ADD suggested other adulterants will illuminate also.

I thought of a microscope maybe to eye out the crystaline structures of piperazine?

I wondered about a solvent specifically disolving pipes and leaving the rest?

Just some thoughts I will keep thinking and track how the ADD thread is doing.

Any updates I will post.

 

[Folley]

MDMA sets this test off what is this evidence based upon? The piperazine test seems quite specific. Only testing for mcpp or tfmpp. Would appear to go yellow. 6-APB > orangey rusty colour.

Severely Etarded (the mod) will tell you that, it's been posted around here before. Almost every chemical reacts to that test, it's useless.

"This test will NOT show a color change when in contact with mCPP and other piperazines and PMA/PMMA."

Right, it doesn't show any colors. It doesn't react at all, and an MDMA reaction won't be able to cover up that non-reaction... that's based on every MDMA + piperazine pill I've seen and my own personal tests where I put MDMA and TFMPP in the same puddle and played with them.

It would seem a trace of meth and a small dose of MDMA can sometimes make for a dark reaction.

I disagree. I'm from Washington, we are the HOME of the meth bomb. More meth goes around in pills here than anything else, and I've seen a LOT of meth + MDMA reactions, and only if there is a high dose of MDMA (above 60mg) and a low dose of meth (5mg or below), you will be able to see the orange nastyness that is a meth reaction in that puddle.

Examples:
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30226
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=29651
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30128 (another MDMA, meth and pipe combo)


The marquis reagent is AMAZING at being able to discern between different substances in the same pill, as the contents are so thoroughly mixed (usually..). Only if one GREATLY outweighs the other will it be able to cover it up. Luckily with meth, it seems to react a lot faster than MDMA so if you test a MDMA + meth pill you will see a flash of orange before the black.

TFMPP - 85mG
BZP - 57mG
MDMA - 28mG
CAFFEINE - 114mG

Those doses look extremely high for one American pill... remember that almost everyone "double drops" here and pressers dose accordingly. People have been saying that they took 2 of those and felt next to nothing... so caffeine might not be the filler

My theory is this pill has been designed specifically to fool the test kits.

Probably something like that, but it didn't do a very good job LMAO. The only test that would have fooled ANYONE (even a newbie) was the first one, Tesk's.... Tesk also just put up a Mickey Mouse tab that has been reacting horrible (MDxx and meth combos leave nasty results, especially the marquis) that was MUCH darker than anyone elses...

Either Tesk gets better pills than everyone else, or hes lying... to put that delicately lol. All the rest of the tests look OBVIOUSLY adulterated

http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30135 (this is the same pill sent into ED, submitted by blah)
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30200
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30130


Those aren't fooling anyone...

Please can we move forward with this thread now on the basis that tests can be fooled and maybe seek alternatives.

I just don't think you give them enough credit. If there is more piperazine than MDMA in a pill (as there almost always is, why adulterate a pill if it has a full dose of MDMA in it?) than the reagents will reflect that. The only times where things get confusing are if the dose of MDMA greatly outweighs the adulterant... and that does happen, but it's extremely rare compared to the contrary.


So really, I'll continue to tell people they can rely on their reagents... just be extra careful if it's a pill that hasn't been seen before. For the common E-Tard, the $25 test kit is already way too damn expensive, so $40 to test one pill on E Data is out of the question, and I doubt anyone that is worrying about this is going to be have access to a microscope or any of the other equipment or solvents that are necessary to tell for 100% sure.



Me, I'm content on relying on my reagents... they've never failed me, and with PR to cross check I have a practical guarantee when I buy a pill that it's going to be good

 

[futura2012]

Severely Etarded (the mod) will tell you that, it's been posted around here before. Almost every chemical reacts to that test, it's useless.

I think the best thing here is contact EZ and see what they say. If its published on their site I might beleive it but without this until proven otherwise seems doubtful. I would be surprised if EZ developed an ecstasy tablet adulterant test that reacts badly to the very substance that should be in the pill. Im not saying it either way but I am yet to be convinced. I have a few things to email EZ this will be one of them.

Right, it doesn't show any colors. It doesn't react at all, and an MDMA reaction won't be able to cover up that non-reaction... that's based on every MDMA + piperazine pill I've seen and my own personal tests where I put MDMA and TFMPP in the same puddle and played with them.

According to the ez website the Marquis test that I assume your referring to will not test for piperazine. As a result the "test" described above is in a sense "winging it"

I disagree. I'm from Washington, we are the HOME of the meth bomb. More meth goes around in pills here than anything else, and I've seen a LOT of meth + MDMA reactions, and only if there is a high dose of MDMA (above 60mg) and a low dose of meth (5mg or below), you will be able to see the orange nastyness that is a meth reaction in that puddle.

The tests that blah submitted look pretty dark to me. On pill reports they confirmed as MDMA. The test was fooled.

The marquis reagent is AMAZING at being able to discern between different substances in the same pill, as the contents are so thoroughly mixed (usually..). Only if one GREATLY outweighs the other will it be able to cover it up. Luckily with meth, it seems to react a lot faster than MDMA so if you test a MDMA + meth pill you will see a flash of orange before the black.

EZ marquis test will not officially test for pipes period. There is no colour reaction to identify it.

You can sniff out clear spots or what ever but this is going to produce from time to time inacurate readings. There are no instructions for this. There is no suport for this. You are "winging" the test. By its very nature users are going to not understand all this and get "fooled" from time to time.

There is no way you can use the above comment as conclusive evidence and say the test kits cannot be fooled.

I just don't think you give them enough credit.

I think test kits are great but they have their limits. Please allow the thread to move forward and accept there will be false readings.

If there is more piperazine than MDMA in a pill (as there almost always is, why adulterate a pill if it has a full dose of MDMA in it?) than the reagents will reflect that. The only times where things get confusing are if the dose of MDMA greatly outweighs the adulterant... and that does happen, but it's extremely rare compared to the contrary.

Why where and how something got in a pill is irrelevant. Can a test kit be fooled yes or no. Answer YES.

Can a Marquis test kit officially test for piperazine - Answer NO.

Can a Marquis test unofficially test for a piperazine - Answer Sometimes variables involved. (margin for error yes)

So really, I'll continue to tell people they can rely on their reagents... just be extra careful if it's a pill that hasn't been seen before. For the common E-Tard, the $25 test kit is already way too damn expensive, so $40 to test one pill on E Data is out of the question, and I doubt anyone that is worrying about this is going to be have access to a microscope or any of the other equipment or solvents that are necessary to tell for 100% sure.

What I tell people is based on learning, discovery and interactions with others. By trying to push the boundaries and find out new things. if we can address the issue of this thread rather than argueing over how good tests are I hope to be able to learn something new that maybe if we are lucky the entire community can benefit from. If new and useful information is discovered what you then decide to tell someone is your own personal choice and freedom.

Me, I'm content on relying on my reagents... they've never failed me, and with PR to cross check I have a practical guarantee when I buy a pill that it's going to be good

I respect this opinion but you must also accept that these marquis tests are not 100% accurate.

Therefore if we can find something to sniff out pipes etc in a more conventional and official capacity all the better

If you wish to carry this on re the test kits thats fine but please can we do it via PM as otherwise this thread is going to get blasted with back and forth argument/debate and then the point of the thread is lost

 

[avcpl]

Since some of us have so few pills to actually test, how are we supposed to get a "feel" for whether a pill is adulterated or not with a mix of mdma/pipes...


I don't get how groups of friends will pool their money and have someone pick up some pills, but those same can't/won't pool their money to have one of those pills tested by edata...

 

[futura2012]

Since some of us have so few pills to actually test, how are we supposed to get a "feel" for whether a pill is adulterated or not with a mix of mdma/pipes...

Hello avcpl Folley makes a valid point about how you can wing the marquis test slightly and actually see from the reaction that there is some kind of adulterant in there.

The plan of this thread is to try and establish something that might be more effective than this test (im not saying its ineffective but as you can see from our discussions above it has a few flaws, main problem being user errors)

How this improvement is going to be made right now I dont know. One idea I had is contact EZ and see if they could develop the piperazine test slightly better. Maybe to expand it to cover a few more compounds.

If the test is inaccurate as rumoured ie MDMA sets it off flaws like this need to be ironed out.

There is also a thread on ADD now challenging the more chemically / technically minded and hopefully your question can be answered with a solid test of some sort.

Any developments I will update this thread.