Drug Harm Alcohol vs Heroin

[Myshkin]

As for criminal gangs, their power and wealth would be severely diminished if heroin was prescribed to addicts.

That would be true if the number of addicts remained static, but there are new addicts every day. The nature of drug dealers, especially in the lower echelons of the heroin / crack scene, is to aggressively target their drugs at a certain demographic, often youngsters, many of whom receive free drugs or money to do the same to their peers. They don't rely on the existing crop of addicts alone and they're perfectly capable of helping to create plenty of new ones.

Besides which, what would the gangs do if they did somehow become marginalised? Pack up business? Not likely. The drug trade, despite some of the violence and coercion that accompany it, is a relatively benign activity compared to say, extortion, prostitution and the like. So no social benefit from restricted prescription really, is there?

I think the main issue is deciding whether heroin addiction is an illness or a lifestyle choice.

It's impossible to generalise. Addictions are different from person-to-person. Many share certain characteristics, but (at a very basic level) some are self-destructive and some aren't, and that matter isn't necessarily even down to the substance in question but the way the individual uses the drug and the impact it has on their lifestyle, positive or negative.

You're never going to win through half-measures, and you're never going to come to a consensus on what constitutes a 'deserving addict'.

 

[charlie clean]

Yeah, next thing they'll be wanting their fags on the NHS, disgusting. Socialism! Why should I subsidise sick people I dont know when I could use the money myself? It's political correctness gone mad, like giving free specs and teeth to them immigrants.

 

[Myshkin]

Ultimately I'm pro-legalisation across the board, with sensible restrictions in some cases, and adequate support available for those who feel they want or need to quit.

As a taxpayer however, I'd much rather fund the provision of heroin to addicts and possibly allow a few wrong 'uns through the net (and reap the social benefits from that) than finance Floppy Freddie's viagra or Barren Brenda's IVF. Which nobody seems to complain about.

 

[Treacle]

As a taxpayer however, I'd much rather fund the provision of heroin to addicts and possibly allow a few wrong 'uns through the net (and reap the social benefits from that) than finance Floppy Freddie's viagra or Barren Brenda's IVF. Which nobody seems to complain about.

I think you'd have a different view, if it was you that couldn't have a child, because Tootin' Tony needs his smack - don't you? What has people not being able to have children got to do with anything, and why is your view so strong on the subject? I'm not against heroin being given out, at all, I just wondered why you decided to pick on that general group.

 

[Myshkin]

What has people not being able to have children got to do with anything, and why is your view so strong on the subject?

Nothing, and they aren't.

All I'm doing is using an example of something that the NHS caters for which many people would consider to be in the sphere of recreational and lifestyle choices, rather than treating the symptoms of an illness. Yet our conditioning allows most of us to accept it without question.

Evidently it's an emotive example, which was how it was intended.

EDIT: Oh, and babies are ugly, noisy and smelly.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

That would be true if the number of addicts remained static, but there are new addicts every day. The nature of drug dealers, especially in the lower echelons of the heroin / crack scene, is to aggressively target their drugs at a certain demographic, often youngsters, many of whom receive free drugs or money to do the same to their peers. They don't rely on the existing crop of addicts alone and they're perfectly capable of helping to create plenty of new ones.

Besides which, what would the gangs do if they did somehow become marginalised? Pack up business? Not likely. The drug trade, despite some of the violence and coercion that accompany it, is a relatively benign activity compared to say, extortion, prostitution and the like. So no social benefit from restricted prescription really, is there?

Aren't most of the lower end dealers addicts themselves a lot of the time? A lot are dealing on the side just to subsidise their use. I think a script would decimate heroin dealers customer base. And it would also remove a lot of the lower dealers who take all the risks that the bigger guys rely on. Even though they can create new users, they have barely even been replacing their addicts as it is, let alone when they lose the vast vast majority of them to the NHS. When they create new addicts they would lose them to an NHS script pretty quickly too. I think it would become way too niche, and with much lower amounts in the community those who are put on a script who decide to quit will be able to return to a dealer free environment.

Prostitution is identical to drugs, and that too should be legal. But with many prostitutes being in that line of work precisely because of a drug addiction, it would probably remove a lot of prostitutes from the market. I don't think gangs would just start extorting business either, and even if they did the police would have so much spare time and man power on their hands given that the majority of burglaries in this country are carried out for heroin, and a lot of their time is directed at stopping drug use too. Realistically I don't think they would be able to replace the money they lose, because if there were ways they could make more money doing the things you say they would be doing it already. We are quite lucky when it comes to organised crime in the UK, in that it isn't very organised at all compared to say Mexico or America.

This is a simple solution that I can see for heroin. On the other hand I do not see what the solution for crack is though.

 

[brimz]

Wheres my fukin NHS HEroin ?

Closest i done come to anything that satisfy my cravings was my 50mg/1ml phy amps n that was ages ago.

If mofos like me can't get it /..............

Nearly lost arm leg so n so on .
Bullshit is what it is .
Fuk i might even have a job if i was prescribed properly ?

 

[th3 s1aught3r]

Surely there must be loads of doctors gettin high with access to this stuff
Wheres my prescription pad

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

Nothing, and they aren't.

All I'm doing is using an example of something that the NHS caters for which many people would consider to be in the sphere of recreational and lifestyle choices, rather than treating the symptoms of an illness. Yet our conditioning allows most of us to accept it without question.

Evidently it's an emotive example, which was how it was intended.

EDIT: Oh, and babies are ugly, noisy and smelly.

Emotive or not, they are pretty rubbish comparisons to make to illustrate a point to I don't even know who...

 

[charlie clean]

And another thing, if they gave out smack on the NHS, what would the pushers do with their stocks? Sell to innocent little kiddies what know no better, that's what. A lot of them pushers isn't English and no 8yo would be safe, you know, don't you? No, the only answer is shoot the lot of em, tho I might give that Kate Moss a break if she acted nice, know what I mean? Evening, all.

 

[Myshkin]

Kate Moss has something of the lizard about her, you'd have to keep an eye on that one, Charlie.

It's been proven in the past couple of years that even the near-total absence of heroin in the UK hasn't stopped many addicts continuing to use 'heroin', many of whom are already on methadone and a significant number undergoing or having received mental health services at the same time. Still they continue to use.

If that isn't an obvious losing battle for those who oppose diamorphine scripts...

 

[backroll]

iseme heroin will never be cheap,due to increase use of the individual and the amount of land needed for the production of heroin

Heroin already is cheap, half the price of coke for a g

 

[charlie clean]

And another thing, what about the underclass? Everyone knows even men and women of solid moral fibre only need be in the same room as heroin to get hopelessly addicted so what chance will these shiftless bastards living in close proximity to one another have if heroin is legalised? It's obvious they'd all be out to lunch for life. Sodomesque scenes of sloth and debauchery will follow as entire estates go 'on the nod'. The dead will go unattended and the smell will lower property values downwind of the proletarian zones, nobody will escape...believe it or not, I've heard this, the 'fags' and 'kiddies' arguments used in all seriousness against a relaxation of heroin prohibition. I've concluded that, apart from the scientific minority, opiophobe minds are rarely changed by reason. On some level, gindrinkers associate heroin with death and are moved by something essentially primeval and out of conscious range. Never forget how many hungry primitives are out there. Crazed parasites who think they're 'in control' and blindly rape, pollute and destroy the host planet to satisfy the transient desire of deluded 'selves' have turned our Eden into a wasteland of the unforgiven. And there's sweet fa you can do except say 'you gotta laugh', put on a face for the cavemen, snatch our precious moments of love and stay clear as best we can. A more advanced civilisation may consider the heroin epidemic a zeitgeist reaction of the karmatically overwhelmed to the terrible truth...howzat for pretentious, Nero, I'll get me coat?

 

[backroll]

And there's sweet fa you can do except say 'you gotta laugh', put on a face for the cavemen, snatch our precious moments of love and stay clear as best we can. A more advanced civilisation may consider the heroin epidemic a zeitgeist reaction of the karmatically overwhelmed to the terrible truth

Word

 

[BecomingJulie]

Charlie Clean, I am officially in love with you and -- in as non-creepy a fashion as is possible -- want to have your babies

 

[Myshkin]

A more advanced civilisation may consider the heroin epidemic a zeitgeist reaction of the karmatically overwhelmed to the terrible truth...howzat for pretentious, Nero, I'll get me coat?

That'd entail a civilisation that isn't seemingly bnt on stunting its own evolution and destroying itself and its environs.

Can you imagine something as fundamentally sensible and logical as that? How peculiar.

Instead, we'll just accept that 'human nature' in its less-desirable aspects is something that's impossible to overcome, in spite of the knowledge that aside from those undesirable traits that still linger from more primitive stages we've already come quite a long way. As hard as it my be to believe sometimes. And through that, attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

Ah well. The pubs are open now.

 

[Cornishman]

Hahaha, charlie should be a script writer for monkey dust. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlTQ5mbZG3U&feature=related

 

[jspun]

I got to keep this brief (relatively speaking of course- my posts are rarely terse, concise, or laconic.) Were all lucky to have Mr. Clean. His posts are not only well thought out there based in truth and empirical evidence. Not rummors, heresay, sensationalism and government lies. Brimz spoke of NA- I went to an HA meeting- thats a natient fellow ship out here. Anyaway in a room with about 100 20 somethings crammed in there was general shock that there was a heroin drought in Europe- non of these people had a clue or heard of bluelight.8( But the American approach is decidely puritanical. Learn from our failed approach which, among other things has lead to the death of 48,000 people in mexico- many civilian over the last 3-4 years of the drug war- legalize heroin, adopt harm reduction measures and you will see that number drop. Anyway, on a health policy and 12 step level anything short of total abstinence is anathema to these idiots.

Ghost face We have corresponded and you know I'm of Greek decent. I hear your argument. But The British Isles and USA to an extent are hard drinking cultures. Greece generally has a tradition of relative moderation. My mom watches ANT1 and she would tell me there was news of heroin overdoses everyday. Here and in the UK/ Eire I doubt regularly make the news at leat in the cities, despite years of bashed gear aside. I wonder, though the Greek press is ok as far as jouranalistic integrity goes, (in comparison to other western media outlets) whether the new government is spreading propoganda trying to mold the people into a Med version of Germany. Since the 22' population exchange, when "Preza" and Hash were rampant among Greek refuges, first the Metaxa regieme and then then WWII demonized and killed the drug scene. A taboo that exists to this day somewhat greater than other developed nations. From experience the Greek drug treatment system is somewhat lacking and excessively punatative and bureaucratic- whats it called OKANA or something like this. MMT is a relatively new inovation and its very regulated.

Now Eireann the treatment of CHF might be more cutting edge in Europe. I don't know what this MDs speciality is but I'm a RN working on a unit specializing in so I know a little about this. Heroin no, Alcohol definetely. Maybe endocarditis, ect from dirty needles which harm reduction would decrese radically. Opiates don't generally cause bradycardia, bradypnea: decreased resprations are the major complication of overdose. Among other things EtoH cause cardiomyopathy which is a causative factor in heart failure. That it can cause chronic or acute kidney disease, liver failure leading to fluid overload doesn't help things as the heart muscle, particularly the left ventricle has to work harder to push that extra fluid ( and EtOH is a major cause of idiopathic hypertension)- one would say it increases afterload. It increases "Preload"- the amount of volume going into the right atrium as a consequence of the fluid overload. And contractility- I don't know what effect excessive alcohol has on it but it I'm fairly confident it isn't improved. In the treatment of chest pain, in this country you give aspirin, oxygen, nitroglycerin SL, and morphine. The morphine doesn't just eleviate the pain it also has the therapeutic effect of decreasing O2 consumption by cardiac muscle tissue. Maybe heroin and other opiates, if used aseptically and as a pure pharmaceutical preparation may have a saltutory effect on cardiac conditions and overall cardiac function. This is just pure speculations. Hundreds of years of research studies, case studies, and a shit load of good ole fashion clinical experience, on the other hand prove that alcohol has the potential to harm a number of organ systems. Heart failure is one of a number of syndrome and disease states alcohol abuse is implicated in.

In my experience its much easier to be a functional opiate addict than a functional alcoholic, legal opiate replacement therapy is offered. The latter seems a more pragmatic approach.

Anyway I'll discuss this all- gotta go- wifes yelling at me- I'll make a list of EtOH related problems- just don't have another hour.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

That'd entail a civilisation that isn't seemingly bnt on stunting its own evolution and destroying itself and its environs.

Can you imagine something as fundamentally sensible and logical as that? How peculiar.

Instead, we'll just accept that 'human nature' in its less-desirable aspects is something that's impossible to overcome, in spite of the knowledge that aide from those undesirable traits that still linger from more primitive stages we've already come quite a long way. As hard as it my be to believe sometimes. And through that, attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

Ah well. The pubs are open now.

Doesn't the banning of heroin revolve around the fact that heroin addiction is a less desirable aspect of the human experience? Legalisation or at least prescribing is fundamentally accepting that the battle is unwinable - some people will always be addicted, and we'd do better to accept their human nature, than to make their lives worse. Everything that is wrong with the the policies that govern us can be traced back to a poor understanding of human nature, and trying to go against human nature in ways that try and push rather than nudge people in the right direction.

 

[Inso]

I agree MSB, people seem to think that being 'tough' on drugs and ostracising those who use them is going to motivate addicts to get clean. Would it really be so radical to provide them with heroin, which they are going to get anyway by whatever means necessary, so that they aren't spending every waking moment pursuing that? Then perhaps they would be able to take a step back and question why they are addicted in the first place. Compassion goes a long way.