The power of community psychedelic experiences....

[thoughtsUnThought]

I was thinking about how traditionally ayahuasca in particular was partaken of in communal gatherings. This has also been done with mushrooms by the Aztecs I believe during certain times of the year. Peyote also was used in ceremony similarly as well, many gathering around for the medicine....

Anyways...I'm curios what you guys feel about the potential power in, or beauty of such communal psychedelia.

Group trips are a common trend in modern psychonauticism, but the groups are generally ones best friends and loved ones. What about tripping with people one doesn't know...? Or seemingly more taboo, tripping with people you know but enjoy not the company of....?

Festivals are a tiny taste of this exp, but not quite what I'm addressing here as the chaos of thousands of people tripping on various substances without any synchronization is very different from having a trip with a group.

It think it would be healthy for a community to come together in this manner. It could ease resentments between community members who are not friends perhaps. Having an intense exp (whether drug induced or not) with another creates certain common grounds and brings people together in a sense. I can only imagine the potential for how much more 'brotherly' our world could be if we came together, setting side our differences, and participated in a psychedelic ceremonytogether.

Sorry for the ramble, but this discussion requires a preface I feel for my point to be understood....

Questions being: would you other psychonauts be involved in a community trip had you the opportunity?
Do you think that community psychedelic ceremonies would benefit the sense of togetherness, and help us to see that we are not so different?
What are the potential drawbacks of group community ceremony?
Would some psychedelic compounds be more suited for this type of use? If so, which ones?
*ultimate question ha ha* is this the missing piece in our world, which if enacted could bring the world harmony? (transcending media manipulation, social stratification, general poopy moods among the laymen, etc)

It wouldn't surprise me if we all organized into community ceremony that within a couple years we'd be creating profound Art– pyramid style, solving global epidemics, ceasing mindless war and generally flourishing in the arts and academia alike. He he could be wishful thinking, but I'm a thinker and an optimist, so hey

I'm not radically a believer in such, just churning some ideas I've had and hoping you beautiful people have some two cent pairs to throw my way.


Iiiinnnnputtttt! Please

 

[daytryptr]

I don't have much personal expirence to offer, but terrence mckenna's stoned ape theory has some really interesting aspects in how he thinks psilocybin mushrooms were used comunnaly by early homonids in full moon orgys, and to use the mushroom to beat the male dominance meme out of our still primate like minds & induce group bonding/cooperation. And significantly contributed to the rapid evolution that occurred at that time.

Then africa dried up, the mushrooms went away (mostly) and shit got whack. Its pretty far out there to most, but he makes a pretty good argument to back it up. I find it kinda cool to think we may have had a more socially evolved culture 10's of thousands of years ago in the cradle of civilization that was made possible by psychedelic mushrooms.

But it is coming from TMK, so take it with a big grain of salt.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Firstly, not everyone has lovey-dovey trips or a tendency towards communing, this sort of one-size-fits-all approach will not work with all or even most people. And it many cases it wouldn't work in tight knit groups of people prone towards it at start, people change and grow apart, drugs can't change this. The proposed communal thing also fits into the line of thinking, "If everyone thought exactly like me the world's problems could be solved lickity-split!" which is a good sign that ya need to go back to the drawing board.

Be happy if your psychedelic experiences have made you a better person, and that you will be be bringing more good into the world than you otherwise would have.

It wouldn't surprise me if we all organized into community ceremony that within a couple years we'd be creating profound Art– pyramid style, solving global epidemics, ceasing mindless war and generally flourishing in the arts and academia alike. He he could be wishful thinking, but I'm a thinker and an optimist, so hey

More importantly, the above gives me a good excuse to post my favorite monologue from Fear and Loathing, for the bajillionth time. Beware lest you end up here, true believers:

We're all wired into a survival trip now... no more of the speed that fueled the 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling conciousness expansion, without ever giving a thought to the grim meathook realities that were lying in wait for all those peoples who took him seriously. All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy peace and understanding for three bucks a hit. but their loss, and failure, is ours too. What Leary took down with him was that the central illusion of a whole lifestyle that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old mystic fallacy of the acid culture. The desperate assumption that somebody, or at least some force, is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Ismene]

This has also been done with mushrooms by the Aztecs I believe during certain times of the year.

I don't believe it was - most historical accounts I've seen say it was just the King and his acolytes who actually took mushrooms, usually at sacrificial ceremonies where they ritually killed virgins/children etc.

Maria Sabina - the mushroom shaman we know the most about - didn't hold group ceremonies. If someone was seriously ill they would go to her, she would take the mushrooms and then tell them what the prognosis on their health was. I imagine that's the way most tribes used psychedelics - it wasn't everyone sitting round taking mushrooms together like some new age festival. I think the ayahusca tourism type get-togethers are catered to exploit the fantasies of westerners rather than having any basis in history.

Peyote maybe more inclined to group trips because of the particular nature of the huichol tribe in mexico.

It wouldn't surprise me if we all organized into community ceremony that within a couple years we'd be creating profound Art– pyramid style, solving global epidemics, ceasing mindless war and generally flourishing in the arts and academia alike. He he could be wishful thinking, but I'm a thinker and an optimist, so hey

Wasn't the internet supposed to create something like this?

EDIT: Remind me again, are you the fucker who keeps putting me on then taking me off your ignore list? Or was that someone else?

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

I know Maria Sabina held small ceremonies for healing individuals...i read somewhere, that on certain full moons the Aztecs would partake over a few days and only drink a cocao drink. A chocolate and mushroom fast of sorts...its been a while no idea of the source, twas a book though

And I'm not imposing my ideals or my personal trip benefits, or at least not intentionally.
Particularly I was thinking of the ayahuasca religions in Brazil, where many gather together . Unadio de Vegetal I believe is the religion who has large gatherings and people are singing and dancing together.

Of course no one size fits all ha. I'm not presuming that every tripper should all trip together, but rather small or medium sized groups based on local or even some sort of common ground between participants. Nothing ever goes 100% right, but you guys feel that this would have severe consequence which negates the potential benefit..?

Also I don't mean to come off as saying that everyone should trip. I could just see the benefit of communally organizing exps for those who do.

The law is the main deterrent around here I feel we definitely don't needa large group of paranoid trippers worried about being raided mid ceremony lol

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

The internet could have helped us to flourish profoundly, but it turned into cheap scams, porn, Facebook and games.
As long as nobody starts trying to sell you useless BS during ceremony or jacking off, I feel this scenario could be different than the internet ;-)

If only we could administer psychedelics via the keyboard...

 

[Ismene]

Do you think human beings are generally good to be around in the psychedelic state tho? I tend to find being alone with nature is often more insightful and creates more peace of mind. Trying to think up stimulating conversation while you're high has never been my forte.

What do they do at ayahuasca cereomonies? Doesn't some bloke just sit there singing tunes? That would be guaranteed to drive me round the bend.

 

[webbykevin]

Maria Sabina - the mushroom shaman we know the most about - didn't hold group ceremonies. If someone was seriously ill they would go to her, she would take the mushrooms and then tell them what the prognosis on their health was.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong, from what I remember reading she would hold small group sessions and if it was for a specific healing of an individual she would give them the dose of mushrooms she thought they needed and then take twice that amount herself.

 

[webbykevin]

What do they do at ayahuasca cereomonies? Doesn't some bloke just sit there singing tunes?

Sigh.

 

[Ismene]

I'm pretty sure this is wrong

Are you now.

from what I remember reading she would hold small group sessions and if it was for a specific healing of an individual she would give them the dose of mushrooms she thought they needed and then take twice that amount herself.

Not according to every book I've ever read about her. Particularly the autobiography she co-operated with. There's a striking series of photos that Wasson took of her - where the family of a disabled kid have taken him to Sabina to see if he will die or not. She takes the mushrooms and then tells the family that their kid is going to die.

Sigh.

Are you suggesting you know more about it webby? Do you know what an Icaro is without desperately searching google?

 

[webbykevin]

Are you now.

from what I remember reading she would hold small group sessions and if it was for a specific healing of an individual she would give them the dose of mushrooms she thought they needed and then take twice that amount herself.

Not according to every book I've ever read about her. Particularly the autobiography she co-operated with. There's a striking series of photos that Wasson took of her - where the family of a disabled kid have taken him to Sabina to see if he will die or not. She takes the mushrooms and then tells the family that their kid is going to die.



Are you suggesting you know more about it webby? Do you know what an Icaro is without desperately searching google?

your ignorance and arrogance is astounding.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

No more pitter patter mud slinging in my thread please! take thy battles elsewhere ha

Do you think human beings are generally good to be around in the psychedelic state tho? I tend to find being alone with nature is often more insightful and creates more peace of mind. Trying to think up stimulating conversation while you're high has never been my forte.

What do they do at ayahuasca cereomonies? Doesn't some bloke just sit there singing tunes? That would be guaranteed to drive me round the bend.

I think santo daime is more of what you are picturing Ismene...from what I understand, unadio de vegetal gathers in a more festive way. Lots of people in a huge tent I believe all dancing and singin...Santo Daime has more quiet and solemn gatherings where the shaman is probably singing and leading the trance.

In terms of people, good question. Humans do suck to some degree, though I do miss my old trip crew whom I used to travel into those other worlds with...of course those are my preferred companions, l am weary of tripping with people I don't know, I do see value in it though. The people I tripped with regularly before I feel I share a certain bond with...if this bond could be attained on a larger community scale I think it would be beautiful.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

I'm going to have to say nay to communal psychedelic tripping. People are fucking diseased as it is, the last thing I want to do is get in mental rapport with people through psychedelics and attract whatever astral parasites they have floating around them into my mental sphere. Fuck that. Tripping should be a solo thing and done in a natural setting, and done with incredible infrequency! (like once a year max)

If you want community you build in the real world and not in some fantasy imaginary vista that provides nothing of real use.

 

[webbykevin]

I'm going to have to say nay to communal psychedelic tripping. People are fucking diseased as it is, the last thing I want to do is get in mental rapport with people through psychedelics and attract whatever astral parasites they have floating around them into my mental sphere. Fuck that. Tripping should be a solo thing and done in a natural setting, and done with incredible infrequency! (like once a year max)

If you want community you build in the real world and not in some fantasy imaginary vista that provides nothing of real use.

Have to agree with that.

 

[Ismene]

your ignorance and arrogance is astounding.

Absolutely clueless. Just like I knew you were. Pretending you know something about Maria Sabina. God help us.

I think santo daime is more of what you are picturing Ismene...from what I understand, unadio de vegetal gathers in a more festive way. Lots of people in a huge tent I believe all dancing and singin...Santo Daime has more quiet and solemn gatherings where the shaman is probably singing and leading the trance.

I suppose it all depends on whether those kinds of things get you deeper into the trip or are just a distraction. How can you concentrate on your own thoughts with someone singing in the background? But maybe if you were used to it then you wouldn't notice it.

Tripping should be a solo thing and done in a natural setting, and done with incredible infrequency! (like once a year max)

Once a year max? Surely it depends on the individual as to how often they want to trip. Because once a year suits you doesn't mean it suits everyone.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

Once a year max? Surely it depends on the individual as to how often they want to trip. Because once a year suits you doesn't mean it suits everyone.

Well I think once you put psychedelics in their proper place and evaluate them honestly as tools then once a year is more than sufficient. You got to strip away all this assumptive fluff that has built up in the psychedelic community, online, etc.. psychedelics ARE dangerous. Not in the sense of being physically dangerous, but mentally and psychically dangerous. It only emerged recently that Terence McKenna didn't use mushrooms from '88 until he died because of one bad trip.. he got the message and it scared him that much. Similar things have happened to other big figures, like Leary (nutjob).. and there's more than enough people floating around today who are damaged to show psychedelics are not clean safe fun.

That is just the truth my friend. I'm not anti-psychedelics, but you got to be realistic here about communal tripping. We're not ready for it and we're not designed for it either. The astral plane (where you tend to end up on trips) is a fucking ocean.. and there's life in that ocean that is not human friendly, some of it is quite intelligently deceptive too. Shamans get eaten up and spat out.. but that fact just gets omitted from the psychedelic culture because people don't want to hear it.

 

[daytryptr]

Well I think once you put psychedelics in their proper place and evaluate them honestly as tools then once a year is more than sufficient. You got to strip away all this assumptive fluff that has built up in the psychedelic community, online, etc.. psychedelics ARE dangerous. Not in the sense of being physically dangerous, but mentally and psychically dangerous. It only emerged recently that Terence McKenna didn't use mushrooms from '88 until he died because of one bad trip.. he got the message and it scared him that much. Similar things have happened to other big figures, like Leary (nutjob).. and there's more than enough people floating around today who are damaged to show psychedelics are not clean safe fun.

That is just the truth my friend. I'm not anti-psychedelics, but you got to be realistic here about communal tripping. We're not ready for it and we're not designed for it either. The astral plane (where you tend to end up on trips) is a fucking ocean.. and there's life in that ocean that is not human friendly, some of it is quite intelligently deceptive too. Shamans get eaten up and spat out.. but that fact just gets omitted from the psychedelic culture because people don't want to hear it.

I agree. Another perfect example is syd from pink floyd. Even waters and gilmour say his heavy use of lsd greatly contributed to his mental decline. Leary imho irresponsibly advocated use of psychedelics in a way that was not taking into account of the possible danger it poses to a portion of the population.

 

[Deleted member 210577]

I agree. Another perfect example is syd from pink floyd. Even waters and gilmour say his heavy use of lsd greatly contributed to his mental decline. Leary imho irresponsibly advocated use of psychedelics in a way that was not taking into account of the possible danger it poses to a portion of the population.

Syd is a very sad case, I shed a tear for him unlike Leary or the others. He was mentally gifted already, he had some form of synthesia which he channeled productively.. but as soon as he started abusing LSD it blew his mind. I don't think he was mentally ill to begin with.. I think he had a beautiful mind that was destroyed by unfortunate circumstances. As for Leary.. CIA in my honest opinion, at least an asset of their organization. He is just too damn clever, originated within an academic position, and as his history shows has been responsible for the destruction of many more minds with his supposedly 'ill considered' philosophy. I think it was intentional sabotage of a group of people who posed a potential threat to the establishment at that time.

 

[IamMe90]

Well I think once you put psychedelics in their proper place and evaluate them honestly as tools then once a year is more than sufficient. You got to strip away all this assumptive fluff that has built up in the psychedelic community, online, etc.. psychedelics ARE dangerous. Not in the sense of being physically dangerous, but mentally and psychically dangerous. It only emerged recently that Terence McKenna didn't use mushrooms from '88 until he died because of one bad trip.. he got the message and it scared him that much. Similar things have happened to other big figures, like Leary (nutjob).. and there's more than enough people floating around today who are damaged to show psychedelics are not clean safe fun.

That is just the truth my friend. I'm not anti-psychedelics, but you got to be realistic here about communal tripping. We're not ready for it and we're not designed for it either. The astral plane (where you tend to end up on trips) is a fucking ocean.. and there's life in that ocean that is not human friendly, some of it is quite intelligently deceptive too. Shamans get eaten up and spat out.. but that fact just gets omitted from the psychedelic culture because people don't want to hear it.

Well, I know plenty of people (not just myself) that use psychedelics well more than once a year and don't get "eaten up and spat out." I think the people that do get eaten up and spat out (like syd) are just unstable people. I also tink that "astral plane" stuff is bullshit unless you mean it metaphorically, in which case again, I don't think it has much "life" that is human unfriendly for me and a lot of other people. Not sure what's scaring you so much about the psychedelic state, but it's certainly not eating me up.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

How much can we blame psychedelics when the variables are so far reaching? I do not take the exps lightly, and do agree that there's much more possibility for threat than is commonly spoken of in the psychedelic community. Syd Barrett, my favourite and ultimately most influential artist of all time, was heavily abusing a certain pharmaceutical as well as LSD during the time that he had his breakdown. I don't remember the name of the pill, it was similer to a quallude in effects and produced "vast distortions of space and time", this is how it was depicted in my reading on the matter. While I wouldn't say that the LSD was not a contributing factor, I say this to emphasize a trend I've seen in the psychedelic community...those who use psychedelics and intoxicating drugs regularly are much more open to negative/disharmonious manifestations in their life.



Again I am not trying to argue that psychedelics should be overlooked as something to use Unwisely and excessively, I am much aware of the "astral contaminants" you speak of. I have practised shamanism outside of tripping (i say this because more and more people think eating mushrooms a lot makes you a practitioner of shamanism, which is very much not the case) for seven years now and have seen many changes in my friends, fellows, as well as mysel. Like any valid empiricism, it takes much observation to be capable of adequately drawing correlations. And I can definitely say thatthe trend of people "losing their sparkle" or "falling from (what seems to be a more harmonious version of) their path" seems to come down to much more than simply the amount of psychedelics. Excessivity of psychedelic use seems quite relative, but I see an equal amount of victims of the use of intoxicants (pills, alcohol etc).

In my own path, I have experienced much...blessings from the teacher plants, but also sickness And almost death. Not just a trip where I encountered death and was scared, I had years of my life engulfed in pain which arose during a psychedelic exp. When, why? The correlation with me was a lack of disciplined approach at the time, excessivity and general dilution of character. Dilution, (by the standards a hold to myself, maybe not objectively) weakened my aura significantly, and that's when the sickness had a chance to manifest.

I've heard with some, maybe most, peyote using natives it is said that if one is to go to the peyote more than once, than they are to give up alcohol. I heard this years after my own decision of such, but when I began practising shamanism and meditations very seriously I knew I needed to keep my being in its prime state, which for me meant giving up intoxication.

Most all burn outs i've had the pleasure of meeting were avid drug users of any and all kinds. While I do feel that the addition of psychedelics to such a drug rampant lifestyle was likely quite detrimental, the correlation stands that those "chewed up" who I've met generally share the common variable of intoxicant use.

I'm not saying that my boy Syd would have never had his breakdown had he abstained from the pills, alcohol etc, But I'm willing to bet that this was a contributing factor. I mean look around at all the drug cultures, do we not see more "astral parasites" attached to those users of hard drugs, even those who never trip?