Psychedelic drugs can unlock mysteries of brain - David Nutt

[Swarm]

Generally really loving this thread - 33hz and knockando have got me thinking of all sorts of important stuff that i wouldn't have otherwise. NMDA receptors major key to understanding mental illness - nice theory!

This whole business about Nutt being an inconsistent puppet and the GBL quotes etc... all seems slightly confused to me. In as few words as possible, Nutt is and has always been in favour of decriminalisation, however, since drugs where illegal at the time he was asked about GBL, he ofcourse confirmed that GBL was a drug and should therefore be made illegal just like all other recreational drugs.

 

[RR279]

I think his physical harm axis is a bit strange generally. Heroin worse than cocaine? Really? Cocaine can cause sudden heart attacks in vulnerable people, doesn't need to be an OD. Heroin is surely dangerous in OD but otherwise I thought not?

Alcohol for that matter too, I would have thought is more physically harmful than Heroin although Heroin is probably worse for dependence.

Presumably it incorporates risks from cuts, ODs and such like, but that makes it less than useful for evaluating harm in the absence of distortions caused by prohibition.

I agree.

Pot and E at nealy the same physical harm level? Not quite sure I buy that. Try dropping E a couple times a day for years on end and see what happens to your neuro health.

 

[dan88]

I agree.

Pot and E at nealy the same physical harm level? Not quite sure I buy that. Try dropping E a couple times a day for years on end and see what happens to your neuro health.

Nutt looks at all the different aspects of how the drug causes harm. Yes if you're dropping pills all day everyday its gonna cause a hell of a lot of harm, but how many people do? I find the thought of doing md the day after being on it disgusting. Most people who use it probably use it once a fortnight or so.

I do find the GHB one a bit strange though, I thought it was more addictive than that

Edit: That parliamentary minutes link is a fantastic link Ismene.... not that they'll listen to him

 

[Survived Abortion]

I, for one, am glad that someone in a position of authority and respect is speaking with such a liberal voice. It's a whole lot better than the little negative goblins who sit at their computer grunting on bluelight about how it's all pointless. I fully expected Ismene to come in and try to demolish the whole thing with his negative, anger-fuelled tirades of shit-speak. Poor Ismene, it must be very hard to be you with all the terrible things the world has done to you. There there...

 

[Ismene]

This whole business about Nutt being an inconsistent puppet and the GBL quotes etc... all seems slightly confused to me. In as few words as possible, Nutt is and has always been in favour of decriminalisation, however, since drugs where illegal at the time he was asked about GBL, he ofcourse confirmed that GBL was a drug and should therefore be made illegal just like all other recreational drugs.

Well, it's a bit more than that, he wasn't being dragged along by the government to make it illegal - he was screaming and demanding it be made illegal. The government wasn't fast enough in making it illegal. He was the one making the running - if he'd believed in decrimming then why would he do something so bizarre?

Yes if you're dropping pills all day everyday its gonna cause a hell of a lot of harm, but how many people do?

Good point Dan. I think Nutt had some bizarre "harm to society" issue in that danger of drugs scale too - so heroin would be worse than cocaine because "society" would have to deal with the addiction or something.

Poor Ismene

 

[knock]

Well, it's a bit more than that, he wasn't being dragged along by the government to make it illegal - he was screaming and demanding it be made illegal. The government wasn't fast enough in making it illegal. He was the one making the running - if he'd believed in decrimming then why would he do something so bizarre?

Maybe he wanted to make the government stick to their own rules, so they could see the insanity of it? Maybe there was some ulterior objection to making GBL illegal?

 

[Ismene]

^^

I just think after they sacked him he decided the only way he was going to make a career was stay on the decrim wagon.

 

[tambourine-man]

Ismene... just out of interest, other than yourself, is there anybody in the entire universe who has it right, has always had it right, has never deviated or contradicted themselves, nor changed their opinions in the face of pressure, and is unswervingly accurate and perfect in every sense?

 

[knock]

@Ismene But he's got a job at Imperial college.

@Tambo yeah he's worse than me by a long shot.

 

[parttime crackhead]

^^

I just think after they sacked him he decided the only way he was going to make a career was stay on the decrim wagon.

I agree.

Or at least the only way he was going to keep his wee face in the occasional newspaper/tv show.


It's not that I disagree with what he's doing, I just think folk need to get a grip of the pure hero worship shite.

Ismene... just out of interest, other than yourself, is there anybody in the entire universe who has it right, has always had it right, has never deviated or contradicted themselves, nor changed their opinions in the face of pressure, and is unswervingly accurate and perfect in every sense?

Hahaha!

 

[knock]

@PT so you think he's a media whore? I suppose that's entirely believable.

 

[parttime crackhead]

He clearly is.

 

[ColtDan]

If you had never experienced a psychedelic drug before, and someone dosed you without your knowledge, would you know you were tripping, or think you were losing your mind?

losing your mind

I've had a few moments on MXE when I've thought that I've actually fucked my brain and gone "insane". Strangely I've also had the serenity to accept it! But then, a few hours pass and normality returns.

same, lost myself on that stuff, or sometimes the room feels like its full of entities chatting away, most bizarre shit ever. remember looking at a map once and felt like i could dive down into it and glide, and other crazy shit. swimming through carpets. everything becomes all complex


DMT seems magical, never thought any drug could be like that, its beyond a drug. well it aint, but to me its like unlocking the universe

 

[Ismene]

Ismene... just out of interest, other than yourself, ?

nor changed their opinions and is unswervingly accurate and perfect in every sense?

It's a bit more than that tho isn't tambo. I wouldn't mind him changing his opinions about anything he wants AS LONG AS HE DOESN'T HURT ANYONE ELSE . What I resent is the bastard leading the charge for banning GBL and criminalising people who were harmless, in addition to ruining my enjoyment of GBL. You dig?

Two years ago he was in the paper screaming for GBL to made illegal, now he's in the paper wanting to make it legal? That doesn't wash mate, he's already fucked up too many peoples lives by criminalising GBL. I'm not going to bow down and drag my tongue up the crack of his arse in gratitude now.

EDIT: It wasn't only GBL Nutt was desperate to ban:


ACMD chairman Professor David Nutt said: "We welcome the Government's decision to accept our advice and bring GBL; BZP; 1,4-butanediol; synthetic cannabinoids and 24 anabolic steroids within the Misuse of Drugs Act.

Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/725973-lethal-dance-drug-to-be-banned#ixzz20iCSxewA

And here's our hero leading the charge for the spice ban:

The council's chairman, Professor David Nutt, said although it was sold as a "natural" high, Spice was created using dangerous chemicals.

He said: "Spice and other synthetic cannabinoid products are being sold legally as harmless 'herbal legal highs'.
."However, the herbal content is coated in one or more dangerous chemical compounds that mimic the effects of cannabis.

"These are not harmless herbal alternatives and have been found to cause paranoia and panic attacks.

"That is why we are advising the Government to bring a large number of synthetic cannabinoids under the Misuse of Drugs Act..

Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/718548-natural-high-drug-spice-should-be-banned#ixzz20iDQNsv9

 

[Ismene]

I agree.

That worries me.

 

[TheSpade]

If marriage counselors could prescribe MDMA in an appropriate set and setting for the husband and wife, I think that you would not see so many fucked up divorces and kids with one parent, or guys beating their wives, because it isn't just a band-aid like anti-depressants, it can generate lasting effects on your perception of the world and the way one treats those around them.

That'd be all well and good whilst the MDMA was working but just wait till the comedown kicked in, the divorced would be back on and the wife would be getting a bigger beating than usual.

Personally I don't think MDMA changed me in anyway or had a long lasting impression. It was great being high as fuck on it all loved up and friendly but soon as it wore off I thought everyone around me was a cunt and cringed at everything I'd said and done for the past few hours. There was certainly no beneficial long term effect.

 

[Ismene]

and the wife would be getting a bigger beating than usual.

She'd get a "hulk smash" :D

 

[tambourine-man]

I wouldn't mind him changing his opinions about anything he wants AS LONG AS HE DOESN'T HURT ANYONE ELSE .

I thought that might be the response.

Idealists have the distinct advantage of knowing that their opinions will never be tested, never be scrutinised and, indeed, never be put into effect in a public way. They enjoy a prospective and retrospective immunity and a knowledge that they will never be judged because, frankly, they'll never really be listened to by anyone of note. If they hold contradictory opinions or ideas over time, only the dullest of internet warriors will pick them up on it. If they make a mistake or see things incorrectly, the worst they will endure is death by meme. It's a cushy number.

Outside of that sphere, we're all pretty fallible, prone to influence and circumstance, moulded by those circumstances and the demands of the roles we play. Working within the confines of the Misuse of Drugs Act, the advisory committee (not "he") came to the conclusions they did. I have no doubt that, at times, their decisions were correct according to the scope and remit of the committee. Other times, I would question their decisions. I would also agree with the assessment (above) that Nutt chose his battles in post quite wisely, largely where the scientific evidence was in his favour and less likely to leave his flank open to attack. According to the Government, this is a war. And sometimes, in order to win the war, individual battles get lost or sacrificed.

As to the charge that he's earning money out of this and that he's a media whore... well shock-fucking-horror. A man needs to earn a pound or two somehow and if it means that "the message" gets beyond the confines of these boards and a few pressure groups and thinktanks, then so be it. Do I think he's as pure as you, Ismene? No, I don't. But if you were ever expecting a Timothy Leary clone to be chairman of the ACMD, you're in for a lifetime of disappointment.

I realise that if he were to sit at home and anonymously bitch about how bad the situation is, he'd be less open to attack. But then he'd be depriving the rest of us our jobs.

 

[Ismene]

I thought that might be the response.

What's wrong with it tho? The fact that his actions have resulted in people being prosecuted and left with a criminal record doesn't bother you in the slightest? You think we should forgive and forget? Come in me old mate and have a cup of tea? My mate Dave?

Idealists have the distinct advantage of knowing that their opinions will never be tested, never be scrutinised and, indeed, never be put into effect in a public way.

I dunno if it's idealism not to demand that people be locked up for taking GBL. I think it's pretty basic human decency. Only the lowest fucking scumfuck on earth would be for the prosecution of some kid knocking back wheel-cleaner. Come on.

But if you were ever expecting a Timothy Leary clone to be chairman of the ACMD, you're in for a lifetime of disappointment.

No-one forced him to take the job remember - he chose it, he led the charge for the anti-drug brigade and was more than happy doing so.

 

[tambourine-man]

I refer you to my last paragraph.