Do you think Jesus would frown on psychedelic use?

[Rocksteady3232]

I have a friend who is a devout christian, and also happens to love psychedelics. He says they bring him closer to god, and he is able to connect to his religion on another level. doesnt mean god is stoked about it, but he isnt striking him dead or anything. There are many mentions of hallucinogens in the bible and other religious writings. Manna or the bread of god which appeared in the morning dew and saved Moses, sounds like a perfect description of mushrooms. Miracles, burning bushes, people seeing god and angels...Gotta be drugs. Ergot poisoning was common and none of these things were understood, so to a person in that time, it would likely be conceived as spirits if you didnt know why you were tripping out. If I just randomly tripped one day and didnt even know what tripping was...I would probably have a religious experience. I know I would be trying to explain things I didnt understand. Perhaps these accidental trips were the key to religious evolution, and sparked the first person thinking...where did I come from?

 

[2c-goinsane]

I have thought it was a legitimate theory that moses got into some form of psychedelic compound, I seen that episode on tv cant remember what show but they proved how the tree caught on fire all from a crack in the ground shooting hot steam up and the tree was a certain tree that doesnt burn down all the way the flames just stay on the out side.

It was pretty interesting, they think he just witnessed something that had perfect conditions to had to of happen like it did. Which brings me back to moses if you were to be on psychedelics while this was happening youd probably be astounded.

Take it easy everone

 

[qwe]

the Church of Inner Light believes that DPT is in fact Christ's body (certainly way better than crackers and holy wine)

small correction.. they believe that the tree of knowledge (any psychedelic) is god, and the serpent (whose mission is to open our eyes) is christ.

 

[panic in paradise]

the Church of Inner Light believes that DPT is in fact Christ's body (certainly way better than crackers and holy wine)

small correction.. they believe that the tree of knowledge (any psychedelic) is god, and the serpent (whose mission is to open our eyes) is christ.

...depends on who drinks the blood.

 

[mecaib]

Not at all. Take this passage, for instance (parts in red ostensibly spoken by Jesus):

15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing entereth a man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornication, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these things come from within, and defile the man.

Granted, it could be argued that I'm taking this out of context, but Jesus never missed an opportunity to speak about more than was immediately going on.

As for drug use being equated with "drunkenness," it's my belief that drunkenness is a state of mind independent of any substances, consumed or not. A person can be drunk with power, lust, or whatever, all while being completely unaltered chemically (well, by exogenous chemicals). Likewise, a person can be cold sober while also being high. Pot is a good example. It makes a lot of people regret poor decisions they may have made while "sober." It all depends on the person, of course

 

[Roger&Me]

FWIW, I think Jesus would frown more upon people using scripture as a means to define their moral outlook (not that I believe in the historical jesus, but I'm speaking hypothetically). I can't see how deferring to an ancient composite text from unknown sources is a constructive way to define morality in the contemporary era.

I firmly believe that psychedelic drug use can be part of a systematized approach to the exploration of consciousness, its no more of a moral vice than engaging in any other form of rational inquiry. We are mapping and exploring the territory we've found ourselves in, that's not immoral it's actually one of the things that human beings do most naturally.

 

[somaeye]

I have thought it was a legitimate theory that moses got into some form of psychedelic compound, I seen that episode on tv cant remember what show but they proved how the tree caught on fire all from a crack in the ground shooting hot steam up and the tree was a certain tree that doesnt burn down all the way the flames just stay on the out side.

It was pretty interesting, they think he just witnessed something that had perfect conditions to had to of happen like it did. Which brings me back to moses if you were to be on psychedelics while this was happening youd probably be astounded.

Take it easy everone

My belief is that the "burning bush" was a pine tree with a bright red Amanita Muscaria growing under it.
--The tree looked like it was on fire but it wasn't getting burnt.

 

[eLeSaH]

I actually believe he did psychedelics anyway. I mean its the most realistic possibility for me at the moment as there was also a change in society in the years 67-68 I think and I think psychedelics can change you in a positive way. And wasn't Jesus against Roman Empire and got killed by them? Or things like the story of Moses. How would your trip look if you ate some mushrooms and sit in front of a burning bush?

Also Buddha. Don't you think it's more realistic when you think that buddha was sitting under a tree tripping and then going his own way of life?
Imho entire possible.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

I actually believe he did psychedelics anyway.

And wasn't Jesus against Roman Empire and got killed by them?

Or things like the story of Moses. How would your trip look if you ate some mushrooms and sit in front of a burning bush?

Plenty of people have had mystical experiences without having consumed a drug to induce one, I see no reason to assume chemical help was necessary in Jesus or the Early Christian authors who wrote the New Testament.

Jesus did not incite folks against the Romans, he was concerned with the salvation of the Jewish people from the empty ritualism and legalism they had fallen into, and their return towards godliness. He taught how individuals should live, nothing about societies.

He was executed by the Romans, since the land that was formerly Israel was under their control and the Sanhedrin no longer had power to execute people, it was the Jewish leadership that insisted the man be killed, though Pilate (the Roman in charge of these things) was against it. That's why the Jews asked for Barrabas (who was convicted of murder after taking part in an anti-roman insurrection, there were a few of these) to be released to them rather than Jesus. The Priests (some high positions were Rome-appointed) found his execution justifiable for his claiming to be the Son of God which was blasphemy. Their excuse to the Romans was that by saying he was "King of the Jews" he was defying Caesar, and must be put to death.

Also, I think trying to use psychedelics to make literalist interpretations of scripture is folly, or at least it is without basis.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

^Indeed, once you get yourself past notions of supposed societal progress, and realize that man is the same as ever as a spiritual/philosophic being, you can see that the Bible tells the story of now and always. Especially everything in the new testament starting with the Acts of the Apostles, it should be taken as advice from our living contemporaries (if you can get over Paul being a bit sexist, which I know causes some people trouble).

See the truth behind the allegory. It's all about loving your fellow man and that which IS, non-attachment to material things, etc. etc. From a moral standpoint it is very much in the strain of that well known Edmund Burke statement, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

 

[panic in paradise]

^Indeed, once you get yourself past notions of supposed societal progress, and realize that man is the same as ever as a spiritual/philosophic being, you can see that the Bible tells the story of now and always. Especially everything in the new testament starting with the Acts of the Apostles, it should be taken as advice from our living contemporaries (if you can get over Paul being a bit sexist, which I know causes some people trouble).

See the truth behind the allegory. It's all about loving your fellow man and that which IS, non-attachment to material things, etc. etc. From a moral standpoint it is very much in the strain of that well known Edmund Burke statement, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Matthew 16:13-15
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

lol

i got to that line earlier and had to put it down.

 

[panic in paradise]

I actually believe he did psychedelics anyway. I mean its the most realistic possibility for me at the moment as there was also a change in society in the years 67-68 I think and I think psychedelics can change you in a positive way. And wasn't Jesus against Roman Empire and got killed by them? Or things like the story of Moses. How would your trip look if you ate some mushrooms and sit in front of a burning bush?

Also Buddha. Don't you think it's more realistic when you think that buddha was sitting under a tree tripping and then going his own way of life?
Imho entire possible.

Much of the imagery of Jesus is representative of the kundalini process, the chakra system and many internal organs, pulmonary and CNS response that occurs during that event. Understanding this experience and it is clearly depicted in allegorical detail; psychedelic experiences can definitely arouse kundalini...as well as solitude and isolation, trauma and the rediscovery of the joy in life.

Christ on the cross is a perfect example of the balance of the dualities in all aspects of life including the self and what might be beyond. Christ and Buddha go on and on about the fine trivial seeming details of life that make up our total existence, to not be amazed, the full realization and balance of the minds sub and higher consciousness / riding the tiger but also being centered and obtaining that balance with the heart. Much like handling a bad trip, what else can you do but tackle the psyche and ride it out in the same form?

Krishna, the thought and knowledge of Krishna, has brought me back from some dark places realizing how He is and is all, and as he is He is me too, and Krishna is peace as Krishna is what ever else is surrounding me or that I have known, and so what else is there to fear besides myself, but this is impossible because again I am he, not passive but ever parallel until such points meet again from whence they began, but as this also has always been the source our journey is finally one to be enjoyed.




_________
Then one day you were stricken down
and I arose: As the sun each morning never too soon
yet all through the night what remained was the light
reflected always from the moon.

 

[eLeSaH]

@Never Knows Best:
First thank you very much for answering with all those information as I have not really a clue about christianity as I didn't grow up between christians and didn't inform myself too much.

"Plenty of people have had mystical experiences without having consumed a drug to induce one, I see no reason to assume chemical help was necessary in Jesus or the Early Christian authors who wrote the New Testament. "
- Yes it's not neccessary but imho more realistic. For example here on the forum I think more people could have such realizations or spiritual trips by using psychedelics instead of having them randomly. Also I don't see any negative side by that thinking. I don't think psychedelics and entheogens are negative. It's not like an insult. Entheogens have been used by many cultures and have been known through all the time.

"He taught how individuals should live, nothing about societies. "
- But all those individuals form society and they also spread those ideas when they see that they benefit from them. I think religion has an influence on society.

"Their excuse to the Romans was that by saying he was "King of the Jews" he was defying Caesar, and must be put to death. "
- So he was a rebel anyway and a threat to the people with power at those time.(?)


Do you guys actually think their message has less value if they had those realizations through the use of psychedelics and observing their momentary situation and reality? From my experience of life and when I look through the times the problems always stay the same so if you give it a try: go to a quite place in nature, take an entheogen and think about life, the people, our personalities and everything, your whole reality. I think you would have the same realizations as those people always had and those realizations will have an impact on your life somehow. Also it's not just about tripping all the time. I mean you have a trip and see everything from a new point of view but after that you still had that experience in memory and live your life. How will you get that perception those guys had? And from my own experience I can tell you that it is more realistic and possible for me that those guys took psychedelics than just having randomly this headspace.

I think the problem is more that some people think that it would have a negative image if psychedelics aided. I don't think so. Psychedelics are everywhere and I think everyone has the possibility to change his personality and perception of life through the aid of psychedelics, knowledge and awareness for life.

 

[delta_9]

@Never Knows Best:
First thank you very much for answering with all those information as I have not really a clue about christianity as I didn't grow up between christians and didn't inform myself too much.

"Plenty of people have had mystical experiences without having consumed a drug to induce one, I see no reason to assume chemical help was necessary in Jesus or the Early Christian authors who wrote the New Testament. "
- Yes it's not neccessary but imho more realistic. For example here on the forum I think more people could have such realizations or spiritual trips by using psychedelics instead of having them randomly. Also I don't see any negative side by that thinking. I don't think psychedelics and entheogens are negative. It's not like an insult. Entheogens have been used by many cultures and have been known through all the time.

"He taught how individuals should live, nothing about societies. "
- But all those individuals form society and they also spread those ideas when they see that they benefit from them. I think religion has an influence on society.

"Their excuse to the Romans was that by saying he was "King of the Jews" he was defying Caesar, and must be put to death. "
- So he was a rebel anyway and a threat to the people with power at those time.(?)


Do you guys actually think their message has less value if they had those realizations through the use of psychedelics and observing their momentary situation and reality? From my experience of life and when I look through the times the problems always stay the same so if you give it a try: go to a quite place in nature, take an entheogen and think about life, the people, our personalities and everything, your whole reality. I think you would have the same realizations as those people always had and those realizations will have an impact on your life somehow. Also it's not just about tripping all the time. I mean you have a trip and see everything from a new point of view but after that you still had that experience in memory and live your life. How will you get that perception those guys had? And from my own experience I can tell you that it is more realistic and possible for me that those guys took psychedelics than just having randomly this headspace.

I think the problem is more that some people think that it would have a negative image if psychedelics aided. I don't think so. Psychedelics are everywhere and I think everyone has the possibility to change his personality and perception of life through the aid of psychedelics, knowledge and awareness for life.

I don't know much about Christian dogma or the intimate details of Christ's life, but I do know the story of the Buddha. It's said that he meditated intensely for years before reaching his enlightenment. It was by no means random.
Anway, sorry to just single out this tiny part of your post, but I just wanted to jump in here and clarify this.

 

[eLeSaH]

Thank you very much for the knowledge. I would never say that a person would reach "enlightenment" just by doing a psychedelic once or so.

There is no way how I could say that they did it 100% but I'm just saying from my point of view and from my experience it is more realistic and I don't see anything insulting in that as psychedelics were used already way before and you can see for yourself which mental effect it has upon one. I don't know anything else in reality which is available and was available in nature and produces that kind of meditative state. Meditation? Maybe but for me tripping is deep meditation anyway. I think there are even studies about that:
http://www.heffter.org/research-hz.htm
"In the other major Zürich study, comparing subjects in a meditation state with subjects under the influence of psilocybin, 3-D EEGs showed striking similarities between the two states of consciousness. "

For me everything was random until I tried the first entheogen. From there on I gained the control of myself and free will as it is today. I go my own way and have my own believes. There is no way I could proof that it was like that, I'm just saying there is a realistic possibility. I try to think for my own just as much as you guys do

 

[delta_9]

I don't think it's insulting either.
I should however note that among buddhists*, it is generally believed that the best way to reach a meditative state of mind is to practice meditation Nothing else is believed capable of bringing one to enlightenment, and the vinaya(rules and conduct for ordained buddhist monks/nuns) specifically prohibits the use of drugs & alcohol. Of course one could certainy argue that psychedelics ought not to be lumped in with substances that destroy one's mindfulness, however I personally refrain from using any psychoactives when I sit in meditation.

*And of course most other eastern traditions as well. I'm by no means suggesting buddhists have a monopoly on meditation or anything like that. I just want to be clear that I'm simply not familiar with other religious traditions. I thought it best to leave that for others who know more.

 

[Solipsis]

In my mind's eye I see a very colorful bright psychedelic captcha that says WWJD

 

[panic in paradise]

@Never Knows Best:
First thank you very much for answering with all those information as I have not really a clue about christianity as I didn't grow up between christians and didn't inform myself too much.

"Plenty of people have had mystical experiences without having consumed a drug to induce one, I see no reason to assume chemical help was necessary in Jesus or the Early Christian authors who wrote the New Testament. "
- Yes it's not neccessary but imho more realistic. For example here on the forum I think more people could have such realizations or spiritual trips by using psychedelics instead of having them randomly. Also I don't see any negative side by that thinking. I don't think psychedelics and entheogens are negative. It's not like an insult. Entheogens have been used by many cultures and have been known through all the time.

"He taught how individuals should live, nothing about societies. "
- But all those individuals form society and they also spread those ideas when they see that they benefit from them. I think religion has an influence on society.

"Their excuse to the Romans was that by saying he was "King of the Jews" he was defying Caesar, and must be put to death. "
- So he was a rebel anyway and a threat to the people with power at those time.(?)


Do you guys actually think their message has less value if they had those realizations through the use of psychedelics and observing their momentary situation and reality? From my experience of life and when I look through the times the problems always stay the same so if you give it a try: go to a quite place in nature, take an entheogen and think about life, the people, our personalities and everything, your whole reality. I think you would have the same realizations as those people always had and those realizations will have an impact on your life somehow. Also it's not just about tripping all the time. I mean you have a trip and see everything from a new point of view but after that you still had that experience in memory and live your life. How will you get that perception those guys had? And from my own experience I can tell you that it is more realistic and possible for me that those guys took psychedelics than just having randomly this headspace.

I think the problem is more that some people think that it would have a negative image if psychedelics aided. I don't think so. Psychedelics are everywhere and I think everyone has the possibility to change his personality and perception of life through the aid of psychedelics, knowledge and awareness for life.

As you described I agree with how the synchronicity that exists amongst everything and psychedelics can make this more apparent, or a total misconception. Keeping a grasp on that face of reality seen is the challenge, allowing it to benefit your life and that of others should be the ultimate intention. This needs some sort of meditation routine, which is an inert chemical process, a physiological reaction such as the kundalini that enables the mind and body to function and sustain that mode of consciousness; this is not possible with drugs or a wandering mind of any sort.

Once that veil has been parted and the connection of self to source has been made drugs to attain or sustain that state of being is like comparing a perfect honeymoon and holiday to a date at mcdonalds.

It really is so simple that to not be amazed or shocked is only way to catch it.

For those of us who have been blown away by meditating or kundalini, the theory of THC, CBx, DMT, Oxytocin, and plenty more becoming released and active is not at all the surprising part.

 

[somaeye]

Guess what God said that the "Ark" containing the stone tablets with the 10 Commandments should be made of?
---ACACIA

And guess what God said the tables, poles, crossbars, frames, and the altar of the "Tent of Meeting"
(where they went to speak to God), should be made of?

Yup -- ACACIA again.

And for those who don't already know --

guess what alot of Acacia trees contain that many people today use for extracting?

DMT!!!!!

(Found in Exodus, chap 37 and 38 )

 

[delic]

A while ago I scoured the internet for discussions of this sort and found these two links:

IF I COULD CHANGE YOUR MIND, Sermon by Rev. Mike Young

and

ARE PSYCHEDELICS USEFUL IN THE PRACTICE OF BUDDHISM?

I was also searching the Yahoo groups discussion of a channeled teacher named Emmanuel when I found this:

Some years ago, I questioned my use of substances which were considered bad by the government. I felt guilty doing something illegal and so I wrote a long letter to Emmanuel asking about this use. I then had a private session with Emmanuel during which he said (much to the consternation of Pat [Emmanuel's own channel]) that it was ok and the reason it was ok was because of my intent. My intent was and still is to quiet my incredibly busy mind so I can remember who I am and why we are here and all else necessary to the opening of our awareness.