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What does peace require?

there is an infectious meme that things would generally be better if humans had never existed.

-1

without humans, there is still pain. there is still chaos (what do you think gave rise to humans?). there is a sort of peace without humans in that our individual life form doesn't exist, but that's illusory: the universe does not center around us, we arose in a dance that includes many other dancers.

humans, as opposed to "nonliving stuff," are able to intentionally eliminate unnecessary pain and suffering nearby, as well as other noble goals. so i like to think of humans as a positive force in our astronomical region.

yes, humans also do bad things. but that's because we evolved from such a chaotic system. other species also do bad things, for similar reasons. that's why certain things are said to be "beneath us."

nonliving systems do good and bad things as well. basically, i don't think you can separate human and nonhuman reality... ie humans are entirely natural. everything we do and make is "natural" (rendering the word somewhat meaningless).

i think/hope we're slowly but surely tilting the existential balance from cold emotion to warm emotion (as we gain wisdom from experience, as both individuals and as a species), from ignorance to enlightenment (as we understand more about our environment). i think that humans are capable of achieving "peace."

it's all up to us, all in our hands, though.
 
qwe said:
there is an infectious meme that things would generally be better if humans had never existed.

-1

without humans, there is still pain. there is still chaos (what do you think gave rise to humans?). there is a sort of peace without humans in that our individual life form doesn't exist, but that's illusory: the universe does not center around us, we arose in a dance that includes many other dancers.

humans, as opposed to "nonliving stuff," are able to intentionally eliminate unnecessary pain and suffering nearby, as well as other noble goals. so i like to think of humans as a positive force in our astronomical region.

yes, humans also do bad things. but that's because we evolved from such a chaotic system. other species also do bad things, for similar reasons. that's why certain things are said to be "beneath us."

nonliving systems do good and bad things as well. basically, i don't think you can separate human and nonhuman reality... ie humans are entirely natural. everything we do and make is "natural" (rendering the word somewhat meaningless).

i think/hope we're slowly but surely tilting the existential balance from cold emotion to warm emotion (as we gain wisdom from experience, as both individuals and as a species), from ignorance to enlightenment (as we understand more about our environment). i think that humans are capable of achieving "peace."

it's all up to us, all in our hands, though.
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Man has destroyed the earth. One day we wont even be able to eat fish because of all the pollution in the water.
 
The first obstacle to peace is not wanting it. Some are hell bent to never be at peace & strive for constant disorder, violence, hate, war, and chaos. Most people that are not actively bent on destruction and violence towards others and everything, everyone in general are for the most part mentally violent if only in our thoughts without even being aware of it. One way on the road to acquire and maintain peace within is to eliminate attack thoughts of yourselves against others or of others attacking you. Easier said than done, but while some people will always be haters, some lovers, if living and coming from a place of peace within--regardless of what goes on externally--if at peace within, you're going to have a peaceful existence from without. If everyone in the world loved everyone including themselves, what kind of a world is bound to follow? Violence and hate would be changed in form to a higher vibrational frequency--or split for a paralle universe or some lower realm in order to thrive. Thats the theory in TJville anyway at present.
 
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TJ5, do you think some people purposely seek out or create discord because it makes them feel more alive?
 
To answer your question, I guess peace requires us to live separate from others. Thomas Hobbes once said that life is nasty, brutish and short. I guess what he was trying to say that unless you live your life apart form others, you will find yourself at some point in your life at war between "every man against every man."

To be social is, by nature, to be in conflict with others. I'm just a cynic who does not think utopia will ever exist. It doesn't stoop me from trying to make a positive difference in the world, though.:)

I'm curious Mydoorsarealwaysopen, about your concept of 'justice'. As a lawyer, I see that justice is irrelevant to law. Others might say that the law is 'just'. For me, justice is a utopian goal that we must strive for (but will never obtain). 'Law', on the other hand, to me, is simply what parliaments and courts do (ie. make and interpret laws). Sadly, this means that if parliament declares 'all blue eyed babies must be put to death' then, so be it (not that I'd support such a law, i'm just using it as an extreme example).

This happened in Nazi Germany. German civilians did nothing while entire populations of Jews were murdered by the Nazis.
 
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Humans are social creatures and need each other to survive (experiment of babies not being held, but just fed and given shelter, protection from attacks, but they died; humans' nature to invent language). However, remember Rousseau idea that men are born free, but are chained by others (as in obligations, laws) or Satre's quote "Hell is other people." I guess human society is a paradox.

IMO, I believe that justice on a societal level, should be to end discrimination/racism/sexism/etc... which shows itself in the distribution of resources and opportunities.
 
unlimited resources

theres no fun in peace.
if everything was peaced out, thered be no surprises

in my opinion peace is something that a pessimistic talks about because they blame others for their problems, if there was peace then those others wouldnt be bothering you would they?
 
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L2R said:
what if we set up human reproduction like that which is found on K-Pax? that is children are intentionally exchanged with non-blood relational children in a random lottery style fashion. couples have genetic children, but are then responsible for some other couple's genetic child, and are forever separated from their own.

*a little expounded on a line from the film, i've never read the book.
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i was actually looking for some thought on this.

isn't it an interesting idea to remove the need to save your own genetic offspring directly?
 
This is an interesting topic you bring up L2R. As I'm sure you are aware, the Khmer Rouge did something similar in Cambodia. All children essentially became children of the State. They were indocrinated through a very controlled educational system and, in fact, they is a lot of evidence showing that children dobbed/narked their parents into the police/Khmer Rouge for things such as hording food from the Khmer Rouge etc. It led to parents being executed. (This is best seen in the movie, 'The Killing Fields', based on a true story, and pretty much true in every detail).

You certainly wouldn't have wanted to try disciplining your child during those times. Forget about children's rights, where are the parents rights?

Again, I'm a 'glass half emtpy' guy. But I prefer the term 'realist' rather than 'pessimist'.
 
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itsok said:
Humans are social creatures and need each other to survive (experiment of babies not being held, but just fed and given shelter, protection from attacks, but they died; humans' nature to invent language). However, remember Rousseau idea that men are born free, but are chained by others (as in obligations, laws) or Satre's quote "Hell is other people." I guess human society is a paradox.

IMO, I believe that justice on a societal level, should be to end discrimination/racism/sexism/etc... which shows itself in the distribution of resources and opportunities.
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Itsok, your absolutely right. people are social creatures. Sadly, we all find ourselves occassionally in a 'dog eat dog' environment once in a while (I do at least). The stronger tend to eat the weak. This said, we occassionaly meet good people in positions of power. "Human society is [certainly] a paradox."
 
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Seth_Heinmann said:
This is an interesting topic you bring up L2R. As I'm sure you are aware, the Khmer Rouge did something similar in Cambodia. All children essentially became children of the State. They were indocrinated through a very controlled educational system and, in fact, they is a lot of evidence showing that children dobbed/narked their parents into the police/Khmer Rouge for things such as hording food from the Khmer Rouge etc. It led to parents being executed. (This is best seen in the movie, 'The Killing Fields', based on a true story, and pretty much true in every detail).

You certainly wouldn't have wanted to try disciplining your child during those times. Forget about children's rights, where are the parents rights?

Again, I'm a 'glass half emtpy' guy. But I prefer the term 'realist' rather than 'pessimist'.
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nazis wore pants too.
the latter has nothing to do with the ideology of the former.
 
I tried to think this one out and I can't think of a way for it to ever happen. Its against are nature.
 
it might need collective consciousness that if we dont we will eventually erase ourself off the surface of the earth
then again some people are looking forward to that day

but im sure that we are evolving towards enlightenment, as much as ww1 and ww2 were destructive force i see the www as a constructive force
the only way you can make war is if you believe that there is a enemy
and in a situation where we have the resource, we have enough for everyone, people are gonna be less and less interested in following someone else agenda if its about killing people you fell connected with because you have friend with people all over the word through internet and its being that way since you were born
why would you want your government to be involve in stealing resource from a country you have friend in
when you have access to information about whats going on, free information from the people instead of information paid for by someone else agenda, then you dont get brain washed as easily
how can you start a war when you have no solder, no scientist, no worker...interested to work for you, no citizen to support you, no citizen to elect you...
informed people become the government
the internet becomes the democracy
it bypass the old hierarchy
it created a new collective consciousness
by creating the equivalent of a electronic central nervous system
it integrates information and coordinate activity, it influence behavior
life is a self sustaining phenomenon, we evolved and the internet evolved out of the same principle
the queen wants all her ants to work for her, internal war inst profitable once the race for survival is over
we made it, we survived, it aint about quantity anymore its about quality, and people are waking up to that because information keeps traveling, information that isnt controlled by outside forces the way it use to, information travels from you, to your friends, to their friends, to your affinity groups...
there is a shift in power when people realize that "theyve got the guns but, weve got the number"
the high priest or the king arent closer to god anymore, because you have access to as much information than they do
people are rising up, like they did in egypt, like they do with that "we are the 99%" protest stuff
its all cuz of the internet and how it shift the paradigm
it reverse the power structure

i see the internet as a feminine presence while wars are a male thing
back in pre agricultural time male would go hunting or try to find food, resources, see whats around, explore
and when you go hunting you mostly stfu
while around the fire camp you had woman organizing everything and having to be very vocal about it, and trying to name stuff
they would take care of kids and the old and the hurt
female are more down to earth because of their menstrual circle while male are more cerebral, they need to deal with more abstract concept when they go hunting
women stay on a more emotional level, they use intuition while male use thinking
but then our advantage was our brain and once thanks to women imo we evolved a language more and more articulate we used that language to plan wars against other tribe
and we did not connect with then on a emotional level, male played war outside the community while women played peace inside the community
but now with the internet we end up in a situation where we are all one big tribe physically and philosophically we all came from the same Mitochondrial eve and Y-chromosomal Adam
and we all came from africa and we all shared common ancestor with everything around us
so then who is the enemy, is it the other or the people who tell us there is such thing as the other
i really see a structure shift toward self governance from the bottom up instead of the top down
tho eventually both are gonna balance each other out
but female influence has being cast aside for the most part these few past thousand years
i guess its following a cycle and i guess its coming back
mother internet is taking us all into her electronic arm and prevents us to fight using the old ways
like the anonymous thing, where you cant judge someone by its skin color, or the way he dress or how fat or how tall how ugly how rich what religion, what country, what ideology you belong to...
and if you get angry you cant fight, you cant kill, you cant rape, you cant steal....
even if you are a pirate and you "steal" music or movies or books or software you aint stealing it, you duplicate, you make resources available for everyone for free
and that creates a mentality where you can believe that there is enough for every one
that it aint only kings and high priest that are allowed to be on top

peace might simply need a little more time ; )
 
L2R said:
nazis wore pants too.
the latter has nothing to do with the ideology of the former.
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If you replace the K-pax analogy with those that occurred with children in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, you might not see it in such idealised terms.
 
how does "children of a collective to prevent genetic competition" inherently relate to authoritarian ideology? from one can emerge the other, but this doesn't mean that for the other, one must have the former.

sorry, but if you can't discuss the idea for purely what it is, then don't even try to contribute. take those "realist" blinders elsewhere.
 
If you want that child swapping thing to work, you're going to have to go through HUGE paradigm shifts. As in, imagine if they first try to institute it by law. There'd be chaos. People would refuse to do it and have kids in secret, children growing up would wanna find their real parents, etc. Requires huge mentality and social changes. The effort needed to even consider implementing this would be better spent on something more practical.
 
For me it is 100% honesty with myself and others.

If I am lying to my father, or my girlfriend, I have many inner tensions.

Sometimes its better to just tell the truth. =/. Thats for ME tho lol...
 
nAON said:
If you want that child swapping thing to work, you're going to have to go through HUGE paradigm shifts. As in, imagine if they first try to institute it by law. There'd be chaos. People would refuse to do it and have kids in secret, children growing up would wanna find their real parents, etc. Requires huge mentality and social changes. The effort needed to even consider implementing this would be better spent on something more practical.
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indeed, i agree it is an insane option in this day and age. however, there is no real alternative, yet. :\ that and many other issues need resolving first. hunger, for instance.
 
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