Hello and an MDPV Question

[spectrasonic]

a headache! from trying to figure this conundrum out :D

Like I said I'm no chemist but I don't believe this is too complicated. I don't have the proper diagrams in front of me but earlier I figured its a change to the double-bonded oxygen. If you have chemical knowledge please look at the molecules and tell me what you think.

 

[Phat_bass49]

Its only a small change! One of the OH groups has lost a proton and the oxygen has become double bonded - interesting little split there, getting a proton to act as a leaving group when its in an OH is pretty neat. I'd be very interested in isolationg the resposible enzyme... makes you wonder what other interesting (shock horror! non drug) uses this enzyme may have...

edit: sorry this post was about the morphine -> hydromorphone conversion - apologies if that was a bit misleading

 

[spectrasonic]

Interesting. So what would the resulting molecule be called?

 

[Phat_bass49]

Like I said I'm no chemist but I don't believe this is too complicated. I don't have the proper diagrams in front of me but earlier I figured its a change to the double-bonded oxygen. If you have chemical knowledge please look at the molecules and tell me what you think.

seems plausible i guess - it says it can degrade toluene - toluene has no oxygen at all, so the enzyme in question may have sevral seperate fuctional areas (active sites) which can incur a whole multitude of changes. We could sort this out by

1. Obtaining a culture of the bacteria
2. "Feeding" said bacteria mdpv.
3. Running NMR on the end product.

I feel that the solution is probably fairly simple also, it is either oxadizing or reacting with CO2 in a basic way, perhaps catalized by heating, or there is a more complex biological synth going on(possibly bacterial, possibly a metabolism of mdpv with oxygen or caron dioxide present in the air). If someone has aready found a way to convert MDPV to something else this "horny" (see, ultimate sextacy) then i'm sure the information is out there somewhere...

 

[spectrasonic]

There could be multiple enzymes at work couldn't there?
But just assuming its a similar simple transformation to the morphine>hydromorphone one, what does that give us MDPV>?

 

[spectrasonic]

Of course we then have to consider the degradation of this molecule to the tan stuff. But not too much degradation/oxidation? or we get the not so good tan stuff.

 

[Phat_bass49]

Heh. I'm not sure, if you look at the structure of mdpv,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenedioxypyrovalerone
and then look at m-PPP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4'-Methyl-α-pyrrolidinopropiophenone

you can see how this is similar. My bet is that if it is a bacterial mecanism - the resulting tan mdpv "soup" is a mixture of sevral different structurally similar cathinone derivatives.

this is cathinone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathinone

so you can see, cathinone is the middle part of these larger molecules such as mdpv, mppp etc etc there are hundreds of possabilities out there! but i highly suspect *if* its bacterial that there is a whole bunch of different cathinone type molecules. Perhaps the ultimate sextacy product uses one of the many possible cathinone type molecules, but has been synthesised by classical methods, from a seperate starting point.

 

[Phat_bass49]

Of course we then have to consider the degradation of this molecule to the tan stuff. But not too much degradation/oxidation? or we get the not so good tan stuff.

Cathinone based freebase molecules are notoriously unstable. i think up to a point new cathinone related molecules are being produced until the feedstock is all used up and then the quality degrades after that either due to oxadization or further metabolism by these bacteria.

 

[spectrasonic]

Well respectfully I disagree. Bacteria dont seem to be known for their creativity as can be seen in the case of morphine>hydromorphone and not morphine>opiate soup. I don't care too much about this Ultimate Sextacy which Stuffmonger has already said is shit. Lets focus on Stuffmonger's process.

 

[spectrasonic]

Cathinone based freebase molecules are notoriously unstable. i think up to a point new cathinone related molecules are being produced until the feedstock is all used up and then the quality degrades after that either due to oxadization or further metabolism by these bacteria.

Unless I've misread this it seems there must be a number of different compounds at play here:
1. freebase MDPV
2. the yellow stuff
3. the tan stuff
4. the not so good tan stuff

 

[Phat_bass49]

Bacteria dont seem to be known for their creativity as can be seen in the case of morphine>hydromorphone and not morphine>opiate soup.

I say this because of the abundance of the bacteria and diversity found in bacterial life. If only "some strains" metabolize morphene, why couldn't other strains metabolise these types of chemical is a slightly different way?

This bacteria is very common so perhaps there are sevral seperate strains at work, with small differences in the enzymes responsible for this. If this were the case it is entirely feasable that a "soup" may be created. Each bacterial strain creating a slightly different "version" of the metabolite.

Stuffmonger is using random bacteria (if this even IS bacterial) to convert his mdpv base into his "tan mdpv". There could be a whole bunch of different types of Pseudomonas in his lab

Edit: Oops! Big error on my part - i've reworded this post, hopefuly makes a bit more sense...

 

[ctrlphreak]

EDIT: Please note that the following is from my research and my experience, and is in no way completely inclusive or dismissive of a bacterial route. Merely showing what I've dug up and worked with, and how it's worked.

Most bacteria do a couple of different enzymatic conversion, HOWEVER, these conversions are usually VERY specific, and not always allowable to other things (You couldn't take mushies, feed them 3,5-Dimethoxyphenethylamine and come out with 3,5-Dimethoxy-4-Hydroxy/Phosphorloxyphenethylamine. It just doesn't work that way.

While it may be true that a WILD strain (Note that that is a SIGNIFICANTLY different animal than a transcoded bacteria, which requires alterng the DNA of the bacteria) that does that, and maybe you can cultivate it, however, Typically, such conversions are in SMALL amounts (Like 1-5g if that) in a Litre or more of broth, that takes time to cultivate, make sure doesn't contaminate, aerate, and the, finally, pull reaction mixture from (assuming a decent yield).

Just some of the issues facing it.

Once there is more progress towards submerged fermentation of fungi in the underground scene, we'll see more of this kinda thing.

 

[Phat_bass49]

Of course, it is entirely possible that this is just a simple oxadization!

 

[spectrasonic]

Of course, it is entirely possible that this is just a simple oxadization!

How? Step 1 to Step 2 could be. Or step 3 to 4. But I don't see how this could explain every stage.

 

[ctrlphreak]

According to the Microgram journals found via yahoo search on MDPV, the hydrochloride is soluble in deionized water, and that users reported a smell appearing when left in the air, and that it ranged from a white to a tan colour.

If this is a simple oxidation than the freebase is either incidental, or it's helping accelerate it maybe?

Also according to that, when the MP of 235C I believe it was, it melted with decomposition.

So.

We are left with a knowledge that white turns to brown.

Brown is inevitably, in my book, some form of oxidation.

So perhaps, these are just that unstable, and will readily decompose.

Anyone noticed decomposition of their product whilst laying around? Only time I saw it it was in an aluminum bag within a freezer. And was the Hydrochloride salt.

 

[stuffmonger]

As a further question, the freebase separated as a green-yellow oil? And then crystallizes immediately on contact with air? Or how does that process go?

Pv freebase is a light green oil - lighter than water. When heated in the presence of atmosphere and water it turns into a dark yellow oil - heavier than water. Don't know what this oil is. The dark yellow oil decomposes over a period of days.

 

[stuffmonger]

According to the Microgram journals found via yahoo search on MDPV, the hydrochloride is soluble in deionized water, and that users reported a smell appearing when left in the air, and that it ranged from a white to a tan colour.

We are left with a knowledge that white turns to brown.

Brown is inevitably, in my book, some form of oxidation.

So perhaps, these are just that unstable, and will readily decompose.

Anyone noticed decomposition of their product whilst laying around? Only time I saw it it was in an aluminum bag within a freezer. And was the Hydrochloride salt.

I had already noted in this thread that no matter what you do to the HCL of pv, it will not turn into the Tan. The color does change significantly when heated in an incubator for a few weeks and when dissolved in water for extended periods it turns a light yellow. The odor also significajtly changes. But it stays pv - just weaker.

 

[amanitadine]

Pv freebase is a light green oil - lighter than water. When heated in the presence of atmosphere and water it turns into a dark yellow oil - heavier than water. Don't know what this oil is. The dark yellow oil decomposes over a period of days.

MDPV Carbonate most likely.

I had already noted in this thread that no matter what you do to the HCL of pv, it will not turn into the Tan. The color does change significantly when heated in an incubator for a few weeks and when dissolved in water for extended periods it turns a light yellow. The odor also significajtly changes. But it stays pv - just weaker.

Makes sense to me. The only reactions I see in this whole thread are MDPV HCL> MDPV fb<> MDPV Carbonate. Back and forth. And of course lots of insane reactions with alot of this nutty speculation people are throwing out. Maybe I'm being closed minded but I've seen no evidence to the contrary. One persons outrageous claims, no confirmations except from someone with the same I.P.

I can't help but conclude
either an epic troll, or complex advertisement for Ultimate Sextacy, or just way too much MDPV.

Not trying to be harsh, this is just what I am seeing. If any evidence to the contrary shows up I will gladly reconsider.

Cheers

 

[spectrasonic]

Maybe the yellow oil is MDPV carbonate. In which case what is the tan stuff?

 

[ctrlphreak]

had already noted in this thread that no matter what you do to the HCL of pv, it will not turn into the Tan. The color does change significantly when heated in an incubator for a few weeks and when dissolved in water for extended periods it turns a light yellow. The odor also significajtly changes. But it stays pv - just weaker.

This IS indicative of change, in every aspect!

While I agree, you probably could NOT turn the MDPV.HCl into any of the tan, because this seems to keep pointing towards an oxidation reaction. The MDPV.HCl would react slowly no? Because it's somewhat 'protected'?

But the weakening of effects, and smell change and colour change, is evidence of a change.

I won't say I read it exactly, but I do believe earlier in the thread it was mentioned that before it became the perfect colour of tan, or after it passed that colour point, AFTER oxygenation and heating in water of the FREEBASE, that it was weaker on both ends, offering, me at least the notion that this oxidation product (I'm leaning towards a carboxylic acid), can be oxidized further on a different side chain perhaps?

Just shooting out theories hope no one mids or gets offended!