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The Big & Dandy Psychedelic Thought Loops Thread

Personally psychedelics have taught me that nothing is dual in nature, everything is a gradient

That's exactly what I have come to understand. Note that I said "our perceivable reality is based on polarities" (or dualities). The polarities are actually just extremes between infinite gradient. The yin-yang symbolizes this concept and that is why there is a black dot or "seed" in the white and a white "seed" in the black, because they truly are one, and they are connected through the infinite gradient, or "grey" matter between them. This grey matter is what creates the contrasting energies our senses translate into our perceivable reality. So I completely agree, and your point that there are no dualities in nature strengthens my argument that our perceivable reality is paradoxical and the polarities are actually connected. As I stated they are independently dependent.
 
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I've noticed a lot more than that in the theme of cycles, fractals, and feedback loops since then. Needless to say, I consider it one of the most prominent and (in a way) predictable features of tripping, and when I feel as if an anomalous experience is a manifestation of a cycle or loop, I can feel comfortable with it because it makes sense to me.

This is what I believe separates these experiences from a comfortable and sensical awareness, such as the comfortable understanding you apparently (and I apparently) have when experiencing these loops as opposed to those that are confused and unable to integrate what they are experiencing and instead possibly experience infinite confusion and psychosis.
 
i applaud this post. i have experienced thought loops like this, but i have never really looked at it this way. maybe i have - but i just haven't put it in words so precisely.

i'll just add an example of a thought loop i had while on 2ce. when i take 2ce my favorite thing to do is lay down in the dark, listen to music, and explore the CEVs. on one particular trip, the CEVs seemed to be telling me a story of birth/re-birth. it had a feminine/motherly feel to it, and my CEVs and the music all correlated with this. i "saw" a baby breastfeeding which turned into a fractal of baby's breatsfeeding, spinning off the original one. then it was like the breasts were slit open to reveal more and more. keep in mind this is only an approximation of what i saw behind my eyelids. it is very hard to describe.

i agree with what's above. i think i've just come to enjoy this feeling - so for me it's (usually) positive.
 
If all we experienced was black, it would be a void and not even the concept of black could exist.

Do you think that this is true for anything that experiences, or that it's just the case for us because of how our brains work? Does black itself require white or not-black in order to be experienced, or is the experience something in itself? If I hear a sound continuously, eventually I will stop hearing the sound, but could I hypothetically just keep hearing it? Isn't the experience something in itself? Had there never been silence, or other notes, could I not have the experience of experiencing this note? I'm talking about in any case. Personally, I can't decide.
 
That's exactly what I have come to understand. Note that I said "our perceivable reality is based on polarities" (or dualities). The polarities are actually just extremes between infinite gradient. The yin-yang symbolizes this concept and that is why there is a black dot or "seed" in the white and a white "seed" in the black, because they truly are one, and they are connected through the infinite gradient, or "grey" matter between them. This grey matter is what creates the contrasting energies our senses translate into our perceivable reality. So I completely agree, and your point that there are no dualities in nature strengthens my argument that our perceivable reality is paradoxical and the polarities are actually connected. As I stated they are independently dependent.

Ahh ok I gotcha now, :)
 
i applaud this post. i have experienced thought loops like this, but i have never really looked at it this way. maybe i have - but i just haven't put it in words so precisely.

i'll just add an example of a thought loop i had while on 2ce. when i take 2ce my favorite thing to do is lay down in the dark, listen to music, and explore the CEVs. on one particular trip, the CEVs seemed to be telling me a story of birth/re-birth. it had a feminine/motherly feel to it, and my CEVs and the music all correlated with this. i "saw" a baby breastfeeding which turned into a fractal of baby's breatsfeeding, spinning off the original one. then it was like the breasts were slit open to reveal more and more. keep in mind this is only an approximation of what i saw behind my eyelids. it is very hard to describe.

i agree with what's above. i think i've just come to enjoy this feeling - so for me it's (usually) positive.

I sometimes experience themes of birth and rebirth, and nature and nurture. My own interpretation of connected babies breast feeding seems to symbolize our connection to our past as well as each other. The vision of a baby breast feeding I interpret to symbolize our connection to our past and our relatives, as the baby is literally connected to the breast. Multiple babies connected to the female symbol of a breast connected to one another to me symbolizes our inherent connections to one another. The female themes may be a way of symbolizing the intrinsic female aspect of nature that is often ignored in our paternalistic or male dominated society. The breasts opening up may be a way of nature trying to show us that in our paternalistic society, nature is actually as much maternal as it is paternal, as the yin-yang suggests (black equates to female and white to male, both are intrinsically connected). In my interpretation it all seems to symbolize that we are all connected, to our past, our present and regardless of any particular gender, everything and everyone is indeed "one". Keep in mind my interpretations of your experience are based on similar experiences I have had on psychedelics so I may be way off in respect to your interpretation.

Your experience vaguely reminds me of Alex Grey's painting Interbeing:
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/uploads/24459/interbeing-alex-grey.jpg

I still have not been able to comprehend the symbolism of a fetus with an umbilical chord inside a skull in place of a brain. Alex Grey is a true visionary artist and it is very hard to fully understand the meaning in his work, but many of the themes overlap the paradoxical understanding that our perceivable reality is split into fragments to allow us to perceive and be conscious, whereas the true ultimate reality is whole, or one and all/infinity is united.

My understanding of spirituality is summed up in one of my quotes:
"Infinite contrast unified into a singularity."

I'm excited that you have had such interesting visions on 2C-E as I am planning on trying it for my first time in the upcoming weeks! thanks for your input, if you disagree or have any thoughts on my interpretation I'd love to hear it.
 
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Do you think that this is true for anything that experiences, or that it's just the case for us because of how our brains work? Does black itself require white or not-black in order to be experienced, or is the experience something in itself? If I hear a sound continuously, eventually I will stop hearing the sound, but could I hypothetically just keep hearing it? Isn't the experience something in itself? Had there never been silence, or other notes, could I not have the experience of experiencing this note? I'm talking about in any case. Personally, I can't decide.

I think for any consciousness in the world we know there must always be contrasting energy in order for us to experience or perceive a reality. Any consciousness that could experience something absolute would be infinite and therefore "God", or at the very least completely outside of our perceivable reality. Therefore I think this is true for anything that experiences except for "God" or the "Divine Source of Creation", whichever label you use to describe the incomprehensible (the incomprehensible being something outside of our reality, which we can never fully understand). The example I used was black and white energy cuz these are fundamental polarities of energy and the most obvious examples as sight is our most dominant sense, and it would stay true for a single sound or note as well. If you take drug tolerance for example: The more heroin you use, the less contrasting states of consciousness you experience, the less you notice the heroin, and the more you become tolerant to its effects. This is an extreme example as heroin is physically addictive and this is an example of something already imbedded in a reality of contrast, but we still see similarities. It's similar to acclimatization, adaptation, etc. Just like you state, if you hear a sound continuously you will stop perceiving it. The vibrations creating the initial sound still exist, but if we can not perceive them they do not exist in our perceivable reality. It would be interesting to study whether this holds true for all animals, or if humans, in our quest to label, separate, and categorize everything have actually created this condition on ourselves.

On a fundamental level, I believe there would be no consciousness other than God without these "apparent" polarities. Another thing to think about is, God could be whole and absolute and experience a single non-polarized state of being, but most interpretations of God seem to reflect the idea that God experiences infinity as a whole, not just one single entity as a whole. Or maybe God experiences both as I alluded to in my last reply with:
"Infinite contrast unified into a singularity."
It is truly abstract to try and comprehend the infinite, and often leads to cyclical thought processes.

Another thing loosely related to think about when using the example of sound is the old adage, "If a tree falls down and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound?"

Sound is our brains translation of vibrations of energy, or sound waves into a perceivable sense. If there is no brain to interpret/translate that energy into "sound", then it truly is just vibrations and the tree in fact does not make a sound.
 
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Some ideas on the origin of psychedelic thought loops:

According to pharmacological research, "LSD acts to preferentially inhibit serotonergic cell firing while sparing postsynaptic serotonergic receptors from upregulation/downregulation." Most of the brain's serotonin is produced by neurons that originate in the raphe nuclei (RN), and whose primary target is "the locus coeruleus (LC), which controls the release of norepinephrine, which regulates the sympathetic nervous system. The LC also has neurons that extend into the cerebellum, thalamus, hypothalamus, cerebral cortex, and hippocampus. The RN extends its projections into the brainstem and up into the brain. It has been suggested that neurons in this brain region may inhibit sensation, thus protecting the brain from sensory overload."

This data ostensibly serves as physiological proof of Bergson's theory of consciousness (outlined by Aldous Huxley in The Doors of Perception), which suggests that although the human mind is capable of experiencing infinity, such a perception is not conducive to everyday survival. Thus, the brain (perhaps through its serotonergic system) serves as a filtering valve that only allows us to experience the perceptive data that it deems practically important at any given moment.

As evidenced by its intimate connection to the amygdala, hippocampus, and other sections of the midbrain, another function of the brain's serotonergic system is to work in conjunction with the midbrain to preserve our continuity of perception. When this continuity is questioned because of a loosening of our "perception valves," we begin to experience the world as a seemingly discontinuous thought loop. Perhaps these loops are our brain's last ditch efforts to make the infinite a finite experience, or perhaps we're being given a glimpse into something transcendent. Either way, I see these loops as reminders that the world does not exist as a continuous, pre-given phenomenon, but rather as an emergent system that is constantly created anew by consciousness (a gradient, as opposed to a polarity, insofar as it is an integral of co-creating wills, our experience of which is thus asymptotic). Thus, as love sex desire eluded to earlier, Atman (individual soul) =Brahman (universal soul).

This might explain, among other things, why those who are predisposed to "mental illnesses and psychoses" often experience these loops negatively. Because their brains are less able (or less willing) to preserve the illusion of continuous, predetermined perception, they are left without any protection from the infinite, and when they fly too close to the sun, they are destroyed. This is not to say that we can't ever experience the infinite, but only that it's an experience that requires deep and extensive preparation (this holds true not only for the poison path, but also for meditation, yogic practice, tantra, etc.)

The full study from which my quotes have been taken may be found here:

http://www.maps.org/research/cluster/psilo-lsd/cns-neuroscience+therapeutics_2008-passie.pdf
 
Thanks for insightful input and thanks for reminding me of Bergson's theory of consciousness. I have only heard of it through Aldous Huxley's interpretation and I am intrigued to look into this theory further and revisit The Doors Of Perception. You have provided excellent insight into the origin of the psychedelic loop. Ultimate Reality may be happening infinitely and simultaneously at all times, but our brain is hardwired only to perceive parts deemed relevant for our biological survival, which requires a continuity of time and perception. Your explanation of a time loop being a last ditch effort to make the infinite into a finite experience makes complete sense. This may also be the only way some can interpret this information, in the form of a loop. It takes contrasting minds and ideas to understand the infinite contrast of Ultimate Reality, and I thank you for your input.

I'll have to look into your link when I have more time, but it is intriguing to see empirical data possibly showing a physiological reason for this phenomena.
 
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I have taken around 100 trips, and the most powerful lasting spiritual experience I had was not on any of them.

I have witnessed what you describe though when someone had a psychotic break during a trip and he repeated the same 10 phrases sometimes screaming them for about 7 hours.

Psychedelics are powerful tools but only open your mind to the one/all-being/infinite.

To join it truly I believe requires a momentary loss of ego not forced by a chemical.

This is what Jesus and Buddha experienced IMHO. Except they found a way to join in it permanently in the destruction of all personal ego or id.

Resulting in the realization and peace that comes from the experience of non-separation, non-being, and unlimited true-self.
 
pretty sure there have been a couple of these exact threads before.
 
pretty sure there have been a couple of these exact threads before.

If anyone can provide me with these links I'd appreciate it. A google search of "bluelight thought loop" and "buelight lsd loop" failed to bring up any other results besides this thread.
 
just search titles for "loop"

lol thanks.... al though I joined bluelight back in high school (2004) I haven't actually used it or posted anything until about a month ago, so I'm still kinda new to this. Actually this is the first forum of any kind I've used, so I appreciate your obvious suggestion and hopefully you're understanding of my complete ignorance...:\

BTW, searching "loop" has come up with excllent results! Whoda thunk?!?!
 
I just wanted to point out the threads for your consideration. I don't really care if people make repeat threads, since I'm not a mod! :)
 
Thnx, just want to acknowlegde that and say to love_sex_desire that I would appreciate it if you would search before creating new threads in the future because you are quite proactively making new ones lately. I encourage the enthousiasm in any case!
So I see you took the advice already :)

Took the liberty of merging the 2 primary threads on this together into a central point and adding an extra link in the first post...
please, continue everyone
 
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Thnx, just want to acknowlegde that and say to love_sex_desire that I would appreciate it if you would search before creating new threads in the future because you are quite proactively making new ones lately. I encourage the enthousiasm in any case!
So I see you took the advice already :)

Took the liberty of merging the 2 primary threads on this together into a central point and adding an extra link in the first post...
please, continue everyone

Thanks for merging these relevant threads, they've given me a lot of insight into my interest with this phenomena

And thanks for the heads up and understanding. Now that I know how easy it is to simply use the search engine on the BL homepage I shouldn't have this problem anymore! ;)
Commence laughter....NOW!
 
The only loops i've experienced in my short tripping career were on DMT and N20 (with weed on the comedown of some MDMA)

The DMT loop was on my first time with it, I took perhaps more than i should have as i wanted to breakthrough, which i most certainly did. As i broke though i was pretty damn scared by the intensity and the body buzz.
The visuals consisted of 3 "scenes" that continuously looped into each other and it felt like I (my being/soul/consciousness) was being forced through an infinitely fine mesh. That feeling is what scared me most, it wasnt painful, but very uncomfortable. I now think this was my ego struggling for survival, and it certainly wasnt going down without a fight. At this point i could barely "think with words", if that makes any sense, it was just emotion.
Once i managed to "let go" the visuals and body "feeling" changed immediately and i was in a strange, beautiful, colourful, amorphous landscape for the rest of the trip. I'm definetely keen, though a little nervous, to delve back into dmt space soon.

On nitrous, i get an incremental loop as i call it. Its a thought loop that progresses slightly with each iteration. It feels like each progression steps closer to knowing how the universe (the ENTIRE universe) works, how everything interacts and the encompassing of all knowledge. The only problem is i always seem to come down just before reaching the goal. One interesting thing is that with each balloon i seem to get closer, another step towards enlightenment.
Thats certainly what makes nitrous so addictive for me.
 
I usually get into a paranoid loop if hallucinogengs have gone on too long for my liking, when I'm just wishing they would end and let me sleep. Usually it's around some kind of fear that it will never stop, and I'll go insane, meshed with residual catholic guilt about letting go an having fun. With acid, I can recognise these for what they are and ride them out.

The worst one for me was after my one and only time with 2ce (an otherwise beautifully positive experience which I would love to repeat again but never had chance)...I retreated to the tent with my then boyfriend and develped the memory of a goldfish, and kept repeating the following questions over and over again:
me:why do I feel like this?
Him; you've taken drugs, you're ok
me:why, where am I?
him: you're at a festival, in our tent, you're ok, everyone's cool
me: why do I feel like this?
 
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