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Lysergamides The Big & Dandy ETH-LAD Thread

Good to see the correction was made.

Hi everyone. Upon further review we have decided the claim we reported on the respiratory depression that can occur on higher doses of this compound were not backed by sufficient evidence. I fully take the blame for this; I had misread reports of general breathing problems at high doses (real or perceived) as depressed respiration in particular, which is an overreach. The page has since been modified to reflect this.
However, the other points about the severe bodyload and temperature regulation issues still remain. I think this may just be a function of an unusually sensitive and unpredictable dose response curve. We still recommend not treating this like LSD or one of its prodrugs and instead as a unique, poorly understood entity and as a result keeping doses on the lower end and avoiding combinations, but we do not want to send out the wrong information or come off as fearmongering.
Thank you for your patience. Apologies again for issuing a premature PSA.
Cheers,

I agree that it has an unusually sensitive dose response curve. In my opinion it is not unusally unpredictable - all of the PDs are unpredictablility to an extent. The thing that is making ETH-LAD *seem* more unpredictable is that people are expecting the dose to scale like LSD, while in reality it has a much steeper curve. I made that mistake with ETH-LAD pretty early on, and have been trying to repeat warnings throughout this thread.

With LSD, if you double your dose, you might get 1.5x the effects.
With ETH-LAD, if you double your dose you might get 3x the effects. It doesn't take much extra to get to bonkers land.

EDIT: Don't fuck around with ETH-LAD! It demands very careful and mindful dosing.
 
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At higher doses I have had the perception that breathing feels more "difficult", but I put this down more to a state of anxiety generated by the come up which seems more in your face than other lysergamides I have tried. I don't think that it is physically harmful in that respect, more a mind over matter thing and have found that a small shot of K, around 25mg or so dramatically lessens this feeling which, if ETH-LAD really did cause respiratory issues would seem rather counterintuitive. I'm not advocating using K as a solution btw, just reporting on my own experiences.
Others have also stated that keeping active during the come up also helps, which again suggests more of a psychosomatic rather than physical symptoms.
 
ETH-LAD is one of the psychs that makes me think twice before I vaporize a load of cannabis when under it's influence. There's something unpredictable with pretty much all -ETHYL compounds as I notice, even stimulants.

ETH-LAD feels very transparent and light for the first 3 hours or so for me, so I naturally wanted to increase effects with cannabis just to find out that I probably should not. 8o

I'm a habitual cannabis smoker for the past 17 years, love to vaporize while tripping, especially towards the end, but the couple times I decided to smoke while on ETH-LAD, once on 100mcg, the other time on 150mcg, I've experienced complete loss of reality, not fun as it felt as disorientation, loss of balance and vision, dreadful feeling of impending doom and serious delirium. I felt my mind being scrambled in some violent ways, afraid to repeat the same experience now. Granted, that one time when I completely lost my marbles, I took waaay too much and with lots of concentrated THC mixed with HQ bud.

So with ETH-LAD I've decided to use cannabis only at the end of the trip, never during.
Also, I felt that addition of Agmatine, Magnesium and Huperzine A was very beneficial with ETH-LAD in particular, perhaps NMDA antagonism goes well with it? Just as Whitefox was saying an addition of a little K makes a dramatic difference in difficulty of processing the trip.

I found the best way to use ETH-LAD is add a third of a 100mcg tab to 1.5 tab of AL-LAD - I get really rounded up feeling of fun acid with some depth to it. This way the trip is more euphoric and funnier than classic LSD IMO. %)
 
Hi everyone, I am the person who initially issued the PSA. Upon further review, we have decided to recall parts of it (particularly the respiratory depression claim) here: https://www.reddit.com/r/psychonautwiki/comments/6d3uyh/ethlad_psa_updaterecall/

The latest revision of the page can be accessed here: https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/ETH-LAD

Please let me know if you have any questions and/or feedback (for the doses/durations in the SubstanceBoxes as well). We are doing our best to represent this substance fairly and accurately, esp. with regards to user safety, as it seems to be a little bit trickier than the prodrug(-ish?) analogs and to a lesser extent, AL-LAD. The potential thermal dysregulation issues in particular we are doing our best to parse through (we have recently noticed more reports of AL-LAD related seizures and are concerned the initial reputation it has formed for being totally benign may be a little misleading). Any input on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

EDIT: Oh I realized I just missed the posts above acknowledging the recall. Thank you for understanding. Still trying to figure out how to present concepts like dose-response in an accessible way, but I like to think I'm getting just a bit better at it every day :)
 
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...we have been noticing more reports of AL-LAD related seizures and are concerned...
I don't know about that... I've seen a report when combined with nitrous which itself may cause seizures in some people but that was it. Do you have any links to the information that AL-LAD may cause seizures more so than any other lysergamide?
 
No, sorry, that may have been improperly worded. We recently received a report from an apparently healthy, sensible user who had a spontaneous seizure while out in a park in a birthday outing. It provoked us to do a search on the seizures reported on AL-LAD which then made us start to wonder whether AL-LAD and ETH-LAD produce temperature dysregulating effects more readily than LSD due to the alkylated chain extensions, which we think may cause them to pose more of a seizure risk (or cause their dose-responses to become more unpredictable). But not inherently, just in physically strenuous or non climate-controllable environments. It is just a thought at the moment, however.
 
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Well it is technically true, I'm pretty sure :/ We have been noticing more reports as a result of a recent report which provoked us to actively search for them. I think the intentionality you are attributing to me is unwarranted, although I will acknowledge the wording could be misconstrued. I can edit it if you'd like.

Also, thanks.
 
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It's really hard to characterize these drugs, especially when they're so new. Yet it's very important that the information gets out there, even if it's partial, incomplete, or work in progress. When this is coupled with an openness to update or completely change the information to fit the evidence, that's the best anyone can do. Good job with the wiki.
 
It's really hard to characterize these drugs, especially when they're so new. Yet it's very important that the information gets out there, even if it's partial, incomplete, or work in progress. When this is coupled with an openness to update or completely change the information to fit the evidence, that's the best anyone can do. Good job with the wiki.

Thank you, perpetualdawn, hearing this means a lot to me. Always been a big fan of your posts here (along with many other bluelighters). Just trying my best to give back to the community that helped keep me safe and sane while I was going through my rows. I feel very fortunate to be in a position to do this (not that anyone can't join and start, there are many here I'd be honored to work alongside with :)
 
I'd like to thank you as well, it's a big project and it's got very good intentions. :) Condensing information into a succinct source is something that can only help. Is PsychonautWiki something that users can make edits to, or is it constrained to psywiki staff?
 
I'd like to thank you as well, it's a big project and it's got very good intentions. :) Condensing information into a succinct source is something that can only help. Is PsychonautWiki something that users can make edits to, or is it constrained to psywiki staff?

Thanks Xorkoth! And yeah, it's on a standard wiki platform which means anyone can join and start editing/contributing (and we sincerely welcome and are grateful for anyone who volunteers their time to help improve our pages or make feature suggestions to make it more functional/accessiblr). I'd actually love it if more bluelighters joined and contributed, as there is a serious glut of experience and expertise here and bluelight is considered our most trusted forum source by far.

The only thing that's really restricted for new, non-trusted users (i.e. anyone who we haven't gotten a chance to know by observing them edit/contribute for a little bit) are edits to, like, the mainpage and very specific things like the SubstanceBoxes for Heroin or Fentanyl so a malicious entity can't change the doses and such overnight while we're all asleep (or hospitalized lol, as we monitor all changes in real-time) and potentially get someone killed :/

Other than that we do our best to be as meritocratic, democratic, and fair as possible; anyone can reach "staff" level with enough commitment (I only joined 9 months ago, to give you an idea, and am constantly surprised by how people don't realize how easy it is to become one with the site :p). As long as you are able to provide solid reasoning/evidence for your changes, anything on the site is liable to be edited and have it be seriously considered/discussed/accepted, even if it totally challenges the current revision. I seriously welcome anyone here to come test us out on this :) There is so much work yet to be don.. Here's a page that should give you an idea of some of the things we would like to do (many of which are in active development now): https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/UserWiki:Clarity/Ideapad

Cheers,

Claire
 
You are asking some very valid questions and contributing greatly to this community with your well-articulated and stimulating posts. I haven't looked at the 'attacks', but can tell you people on bluelight can be real twats when you challenge popular ideas. It used to be different, but ever since Mephedrone was introduced the site is swarming the sitmorons. You'd be best off to just ignore them, challenging as it may be. Again, thank you for the stimulating post.

Regarding the matter at hand though: I can not say much about the neurophysiological implications, since I am simply not well-read in that respect.
However I can tell you that the experience induced by a lot of psychedelics at very high doses overlaps with the dissociative experience, or more specifically with an aspect of it which occasionally occurs in the state we call a 'hole'. Neither psychedelics nor dissociatives can reliably induce religious experience or what Shulgin calls a ++++, no matter how high the dose may be. You may lose all perception of your surroundings, but I do not consider that the same thing as ego loss or a ++++.

Ego loss to me is the sensation of merging with everything. I come to a point where everything that is is reduced to a tiny little dot of time and space which I am part of, opposed to the sensation of extending into infinity with the universe as I had imagined the experience before my first full-blown ego death. It is hands down the most euphoric state I have ever reached with drugs and usually doesn't last very long for me. It is one of the things I am after when using dissociatives. If it happens I call the experience a success, otherwise it is a failure the way I see it.

Combining dissociatives with psychedelics will increase the probability of an experience being "successful". This goes for every psychedelic I have tried to combine with dissociatives, but if I take the same substances on their own only a few will facilitate entering that highly sought after state. First and foremost DOC is a great example, but mescaline has done the same thing for me and so has DPT. DMT is an entirely different cup of tea since the response is not unconditionally dose-dependent, the ceiling dose above which amnesia will occur being only slightly lower than a threshold dose. I guess you could say DMT has a very low recreational index. ;) It can also cause breakthrough experiences at as little as 10mg of the fumarate salt injected intravenously when other times 25mg will not get me anywhere whatsoever.

However I can dose very high to the point of amnesia and psychotic confusion without getting there. When I get there, it will still not always result in a religious experience/++++. I can only retrospectively tell when those have occured because each one has shaped my religious beliefs profoundly.

I have had 5-10 of those by now, spread out across the many hundred dissociative (200-500) and psychedelic (100-200) experiences of the past 17-18 years. Most of them occured after experiencing what I described above and what many seem to refer to as ego death, but some had a spiritual impact for unrelated reasons.

Regarding the magic on the neurological level... You will be well aware that DMT may be so different from all other chemically very closely related psychedelics because it is an endogenic ligand for sigma-1 receptors. For a long time we had assumed it would elicit it's action through serotonergic activity, when the serotonin receptors seem to only allow DMT to enter the cell before it is transported to the endoplasmatic reticulum by vMAT II where we can find the greatest density of s1r's.
The s1r in turn plays a very important role in modifying ion channel proteins or regulating their expression. The same way that many other assumptions have been overthrown in the past this goes to show that there is a lot more exciting stuff happening far downstream from what we can initially observe and what is often made responsible for a drug's action.

I would assume that the same goes for glutamatergic dissociatives and even other dissociatives. They trigger a long cascade of processes that we are yet to fully appreciate. It is extremely unlikely that the cascade activated by dissociatives has nothing in common with that activated by "serotonergic" psychedelics somewhere downstream.

I know this doesn't really get you any further in developing your theories, but it's kind of in line with that you proposed. I think for you to research DOC's and mescaline's pharmacology would be a good idea. I am afraid little is known about the former, but let us know what you come up with should you decide to go there.

meritocratic
If it's considered a merit to have taken a shitload of drugs count me in. Either way, keep up the good work!

EDIT: Come to think of it, I've been meaning to make a list of all known pseudonyms for the substances that have entered the scene at some point in time. I'm not talking calling pot nugs, but cleaning up the many ambiguities in the nomenclature.
It should imho be a separate category outside of the articles on each drug. A list if you will. IUPAC name, common trade names, substances it's commonly misrepresented as due to pure ignorance on the suppliers' end etc. We are bound to run into major problems in the coming years with substances being around that incorrectly follow the amphetamine naming patterns (Dipe[n/t]idine), are never called by their IUPAC and end up with colorful names like MXP or MXE. Because seriously, wtf?! I ran into issues with mdppp and meppp before.

Since you probably won't see me editing initiatively, let me know if you ever think I could contribute to a certain article because one of my posts suggests it. ;) If you find yourself needing someone to paraphrase a publication or some such I could help out with that. Got very extensive access, eventhough that is probably not an issue anymore with sci-hub.cc. :D

EDIT2: I found "PubChem as reference to all IUPAC and systematic names" in your brainstorming session's results. Hope this is gonna happen, but you should definitely add common trade names to that imho.
 
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FYI, I just created an account, I'd like to contribute. :)
 
lol crOOk - weren't you just complaining about this thread being an off-topic mess a few pages back?
 
Going to throw another experience on the pile...ETH-LAD is a miserable substance.

I took 150ug today, adding another 50ug 40 minutes in. It almost exactly paralleled the experience I had with 250ug AL-LAD some months ago (same source as the ETH-LAD), but magnitudes worse. It took a good hour and a half for the effects to develop, and the next several hours are what I can only describe as a comeup that never, well, comes up. Yawning, chills, and intense peripheral stimulation and jitters. No visuals, no mindscrew, no actual psychedelic effects. There was just this oppressive, suffocating body load that would come in waves. At its worst, it was like a uniform pressure all over me, tapering to sore/cramped arms and legs.

After the body load finally relents for a bit, I decide to cut my losses and end, or at least mellow, the experience with 2mg etizolam. That seems to smooth out the remaining jitters, and, now that I can relax a bit, here I begin to notice some light visuals. Pattern repetition on surfaces and sections of the landscape here and there if I focus, slightly brighter colors, some tactile enhancement. Still no real mental effects. I get maybe an hour and a half of this before a fairly steep drop to baseline.

I’m 0 for 2 with the major RC lysergamides…makes me wonder if I should bother picking up 1P or 1A-LSD at all.
 
Going to throw another experience on the pile...ETH-LAD is a miserable substance.

I took 150ug today, adding another 50ug 40 minutes in. It almost exactly paralleled the experience I had with 250ug AL-LAD some months ago (same source as the ETH-LAD), but magnitudes worse. It took a good hour and a half for the effects to develop, and the next several hours are what I can only describe as a comeup that never, well, comes up. Yawning, chills, and intense peripheral stimulation and jitters. No visuals, no mindscrew, no actual psychedelic effects. There was just this oppressive, suffocating body load that would come in waves. At its worst, it was like a uniform pressure all over me, tapering to sore/cramped arms and legs.

After the body load finally relents for a bit, I decide to cut my losses and end, or at least mellow, the experience with 2mg etizolam. That seems to smooth out the remaining jitters, and, now that I can relax a bit, here I begin to notice some light visuals. Pattern repetition on surfaces and sections of the landscape here and there if I focus, slightly brighter colors, some tactile enhancement. Still no real mental effects. I get maybe an hour and a half of this before a fairly steep drop to baseline.

I’m 0 for 2 with the major RC lysergamides…makes me wonder if I should bother picking up 1P or 1A-LSD at all.
^^^Sorry to hear that...:( Lysergamides never disappoint me personally, maybe ETH-LAD (or lysergamides in general) causes an allergic reaction for you or maybe it's just the way your body metabolizes it? Were you ever enjoying a classic LSD effects at all?

It almost exactly paralleled the experience I had with 250ug AL-LAD some months ago (same source as the ETH-LAD), but magnitudes worse.
^^^This is weird, as I find them soooo different from each other. I dont know what to say...
 
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With many people reporting a wide range of dosages needed to trip properly from AL-LAD, I thought I might be one of the people who need an unusually high dose to get worthwhile effects.

ETH-LAD seemed much more consistent (all reports I've read suggest 150-200ug is a good solid trip), and was said to be fairly different from AL-LAD, and so I thought I'd be in good shape with that dose.

But yeah, it was the same underwhelming, light effects I had from AL-LAD, except with a physically much rougher ride to the peak. I've never tried LSD itself so I have no reference point for what to expect.

I do get consistently amazing, beautiful experiences with metocin, so I'll probably check out 4-AcO-DMT for the more challenging, introspective trip I was looking for in ETH-LAD.
 
Malmet, IMO your body chemistry is just not suited well for lysergamides. I have a friend who also hates all forms of acid but devours phenethylamines.
I advise not to waste money on LSD or it's analogs and look towards tryptamines and phenethylamines instead. If you like metocin, check out 4-HO-MiPT and mushrooms, 4-Aco-DMT is of a different kind IME and may be dysphoric to lots of people; if you do try it, I recommend the combo with metocin. Also I'd check out Mescaline and it's analogs (they are so good with metocin too!), and of course the 2C-x group! ;)
 
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