The Big & Dandy Brain Zaps / Brain Shivers Thread

[Solipsis]

From where I stand the separation of electrical and neurochemical doesn't make a whole lot of sense, you can't have one without the other in the brain right? I think it's something like the neurotransmitter concentrations of - probably mostly - serotonin can cause some sort of reaction in the polarization of your neurons. To a lot of them at the same time, however local that may be... The electrical potential is directly related to your neurotransmitter levels, correct? I don't think other types of electricity were meant.

 

[Psychodelirium]

Yes, I agree. I just mean that it feels like an electrical shock or discharge or short circuit or something inside the brain, but I doubt that that's what it actually is. However, to say "it isn't what it appears to be" is not to say "it's all in your mind, don't worry about it."

 

[DwayneHoover]

^Not everyone says it seems electric from what I read.

@Solipsis:thank you so much for allowing me to have my own theory LOL.

"Brain Zap" sounds like a short, instantaneous "shock" or flash or snap... but many depict something more lengthy than that.

I am just looking at numerous quite varied descriptions and it sure seems like people are mapping different phenomenon onto the same catchy term.

So what's the common denominator? A sudden short-acting physical sensation? Then again some have described them as a sound, not electric at all. Solipsis describes not electricity or sound but rather a dizziness/disorientation/g-forces/swirling like a roller coaster. And some have described a very sudden almost instantaneous thing, whereas others have described something more extended over a few seconds or even longer. Some say there is twitching (what body parts?) others do not mention any physical twitching just an inner sensation, whose descriptions are very varied.

I all just seems so scattershot, that is why I am expressing skepticism. "Brain zaps" is just too damn fuzzy a term to be useful, it attracts noise, not a precise thing that can be investigated or even discussed coherently.

Perhaps we need a detailed survey questionnaire in order to precisely document a range of different species of these things? Otherwise everyone is going to just going to throw out their own partial descriptions and we will only have a pile of random incoherent words laying on the floor.

OK so you were tripping, and suddenly you noticed you "felt something odd". That's as close as I can get right now, and it does not seem very meaningful.

 

[Solipsis]

Just wanted to emphasize we are not presuming to come out right, but rather that it seems available data is limited leaving a good number of theories open. So I want to keep discussion as open as possible, no need to ridicule me for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRI_discontinuation_syndrome#.22Brain_zaps.22_and_sensations

Symptoms described as "brain zaps", "brain shocks," "brain shivers", "head shocks" or "cranial zings" are a withdrawal symptom experienced during discontinuation (or reduction of dose) of antidepressant drugs.[8][9] The symptoms are widely variable in description and of unknown etiology;[9] common descriptions include dizziness, electric shock-like sensations, sweating, nausea, insomnia, tremor, confusion, nightmares and vertigo.[8][9] The MedDRA "preferred term" for coding these types of symptoms in adverse drug reaction reports (for use in pharmacovigilance databases such as under the Yellow Card Scheme) is paraesthesia.[10][11]
In a 1997 survey, a "sizable minority" of medical professionals were not confidently aware of the existence of antidepressant withdrawal symptoms.[12] A 2005 review of adverse event reporting showed that descriptions of "electric shocks" from patients on paroxetine had been reported more frequently than some other symptoms.[10]

So even if we only focus on SSRI discontinuation reactions there is vertigo or dizziness reported.

In my own experiences, the disorientation/vertigo/dizziness seems to be a direct result from very temporary suspension of awareness of your surroundings and basically centralized other brain functions it seems. It's no wonder reported effects can vary if they involve temporary suspension of partial or entire awareness. However it was not always like that for me. There was always a zapping (i.e. physical overload or peak type) sensation right alongside the suspension of spatial/temporal awareness. But sometimes it was mostly the zapping and much less of the loss of awareness, at least for me.

I have to say, there is an element that reminds me of ego loss, only one happening in the blink of an eye. Since it is so extremely transient, there is virtually none of the typical special sides of the character of ego suspension. Psychedelic ego-loss is a process and I have heard more than one people say that it is more the way to and from it that matters than the time you spend in ego-death. The reason is exactly because the suspension does not mean anything without a frame of reference.

http://pointofreturn.com/brain_zaps.html

The symptoms are described as brief but repeated electric shock-like sensations in the brain and head, or originating in the brain but extending to other parts of the body. Moving one’s eyes quickly from side to side has also been shown to trigger Brain Zaps in more rapid frequency. Brain Zaps are often accompanied by disorientation, tinnitus, vertigo and lightheadedness.

I'm not sure what kind of information you are after but as far as I know the exact process is not elucidated. On the other hand, it seems to me like plenty of people who stop SSRI use have experienced this so it's no bullshit.

Maybe you think it's not right to self-diagnose this, but personally I wonder how important that really is in threads like this. To actually earn a certain label or not is besides the point if you ask me. If you experienced zapping in your brain, read about the description like the ones above and identify with those it's enough for me. There seems to be a list of causes for this related to changes in serotonin levels so I don't think it's that vague at all.

What I agree with you is that it is hard to discuss this much further, though it depends on what the goal is that people posting here have. I would find it welcome if there comes a scientific explanation, until then I am satisfied to know there is a phenomenon that may involve a varying effect profile but generally stemming from having your serotonin levels fucked from SSRI's, MDMA, psychedelics and other drugs.

A good question IMO is: how related is the effect benzo discontinuation can have to this? Seizures are apparently possible, but are brain zaps as well? How close do they come to what people with SSRI discontinuation syndrome describe?

 

[ArmouredKitten]

I am currently experiencing some severe "brain zaps" as a result of a two-day MDAI binge (14th to the 15th). I began feeling the "zaps" as I started coming down from the MDAI on the morning of the 16th, when I consumed a small amount of MDAI to stave off the uncomfortable feeling. I noted, also, that this phenomenon is exactly what I experienced after consuming Hawaiian baby woodrose seeds. On the night of the 16th, I had a very difficult time trying to go to sleep. I was experiencing horrifying shock after shock, a feeling similar to a hit of inhalants, with paraesthesia throughout my body, accompanied by a "twang" or any other kind of electrical noise. In desperation, I took 50mg of diphenhydramine with a beer. That seemed to do the trick.
This morning (morning of the 17th), I felt as I would normally feel after drinking a beer with two benadryl. Throughout the day, I experienced no zaps.
Starting at around 10PM (EST), however, that familiar sensation slowly began to make itself apparent. It is now almost 2AM on the morning of the 18th, and I daresay the sensation is almost as bad as it was last night, and I have no idea how I'm going to deal with this. I don't know whether I should go to a hospital or not (i really don't think that would help much, especially being that the condition is the result of drug use). Any advice is greatly appreciated. I would like not to have to take two benadryl and a beer every night; foremost because I am not 21, and moreover -- because I simply cannot deal with that kind of groggy hangover every morning.

 

[Jakeperson]

Likely a coincidence that it happened on the occasion you took it as tea.

It's interesting to note that i've yet to hear anyone report those zaps on most psychedelics, just mushrooms and the ridiculously-closely-related 4-AcO-DMT - I know I havn't experienced them on anything other than 4-AcO-DMT (though i've only taken mushrooms once, and at a lowish dose).
No sign of the "zaps" from any 2C, or from LSD, or from 4-HO-MET/MiPT - both of which are very similar structurally to 4-HO-DMT. I've taken 4-HO-MET more times, and in larger doses, than 4-AcO-DMT, and havn't felt anything like the "zap" sensation.

I have only ever got them from 4-HO-MET, feelsgoodman

 

[Jesusgreen]

Jakeperson, I think the brain zaps talked about here are different to what you experienced. I've never heard anyone describe them as feeling good, they're usually very unpleasant and in fact I've known people quit using drugs entirely because of severe brain zaps.

 

[Cyanoide]

I am now (very) slowly tapering down from escitalopram (Cipralex) to avoid nasty withdrawal symptoms and especially brain zaps. I taper down only 1 mg per week. I still do get brain zaps now.

However, there'a very strange thing here. Stimulants like speed and MPA completely remove the brain zaps (not caffeine though). Every time. This baffles me because one would think they'd either have no impact or make the brain zaps worse since they mainly act on dopamin receptors and shouldn't have much affect on serotonin receptors. The same reason why speed works with SSRI's but MDMA not.

Does anyone have any theory to what could be the reason for this? The brain zaps reappear as soon as the simulants effects are over.

(I know it's not a good idea to take drugs while on SSRI WD but I fortunately don't have much stimulants left either).'

I've previously tried every method and supplement to reduce the frequenqy and intensity of brain zaps on SSRI WD', but nothing have helped. Now I've discovered amphetamines are the perfect cure for them.

Edit: I want to add that I emphatically do not recommend using amphetamines to counter brain zaps. Amphetamines have a long range of problems and eventually when using them frequently I'm sure the other SSRI WD symptoms will only be worsened (more anxiety, restlessness etc). I've just discoverd they have this property for me (maybe others too?). I'm just interested in the brain zap peculiarity.

 

[Albion]

I am now (very) slowly tapering down from escitalopram (Cipralex) to avoid nasty withdrawal symptoms and especially brain zaps. I taper down only 1 mg per week. I still do get brain zaps now.

However, there'a very strange thing here. Stimulants like speed and MPA completely remove the brain zaps (not caffeine though). Every time. This baffles me because one would think they'd either have no impact or make the brain zaps worse since they mainly act on dopamin receptors and shouldn't have much affect on serotonin receptors. The same reason why speed works with SSRI's but MDMA not.

Does anyone have any theory to what could be the reason for this? The brain zaps reappear as soon as the simulants effects are over.

(I know it's not a good idea to take drugs while on SSRI WD but I fortunately don't have much stimulants left either).'

I've previously tried every method and supplement to reduce the frequenqy and intensity of brain zaps on SSRI WD', but nothing have helped. Now I've discovered amphetamines are the perfect cure for them.

I've also noticed that brain zaps are at their worst during sobriety, and in fact if I am not sober, be it on stimulants, alcohol, dissociatives whatever, they don't occur at all. One solution for getting to sleep at night without suffering from zaps is to take a small bump of MXE before I go to bed.

 

[Cyanoide]

I've also noticed that brain zaps are at their worst during sobriety, and in fact if I am not sober, be it on stimulants, alcohol, dissociatives whatever, they don't occur at all. One solution for getting to sleep at night without suffering from zaps is to take a small bump of MXE before I go to bed.

Yeah, I forgot that MXE removes the brain zaps too.

Not stimualants nor MXE stabilize the serotonin levels in the brain (as the consensus I believe is brain zaps occur due to imbalances in the serotonin levels, although it hasn't been proved), so how can they remove the brain zaps?

Edit: If the moderators think there are better chances of gettings answers to this in the advanced discussion forum, feel free to move my posts there.

 

[Albion]

Yeah, I forgot that MXE removes the brain zaps too.

Not stimualants nor MXE stabilize the serotonin levels in the brain (as the consensus I believe is brain zaps occur due to imbalances in the serotonin levels, although it hasn't been proved), so how can they remove the brain zaps?

Edit: If the moderators think there are better chances of gettings answers to this in the advanced discussion forum, feel free to move my posts there.

I can sort of get why MXE, being a dissociative, could act as an analgesic and numb the zaps, but it actually eliminates them completely. And I would have thought like you that stimulants would only exasperate them. It's puzzling, and frustrating that there's no real scientific insight into this whole phenomena.

 

[Jakeperson]

Jakeperson, I think the brain zaps talked about here are different to what you experienced. I've never heard anyone describe them as feeling good, they're usually very unpleasant and in fact I've known people quit using drugs entirely because of severe brain zaps.

I don't think any one else would enjoy them. I wouldn't either if I got many but 2-3 over the trip was kinda cool, in a similar way me finding severe pain hilarious

 

[Jesusgreen]

I suppose that's possible. It's like how sometimes I enjoy the pain of my heartburn.

Are we all nothing but sad masochists?

 

[Cyanoide]

I can sort of get why MXE, being a dissociative, could act as an analgesic and numb the zaps, but it actually eliminates them completely. And I would have thought like you that stimulants would only exasperate them. It's puzzling, and frustrating that there's no real scientific insight into this whole phenomena.

If our theory holds true, it could in theory be possible to avoid brain zaps on SSRI WD by taking small bumps of MXE or e.g. speed for 2-3 weeks (when the brain zaps are at their worst). It's not a road I would want to go down but if they brain zaps are unbearable I could actually see myself contemplate on doing it. The bumps whould have to be so small though that I can work normally (not hard with speed) and 2-3 weeks continually on MXE or speed just sound like it somehow has to interfere in the recovering process of the brain from the SSRI.

Again, just if some random guy is searching on the web for help for brain zaps and finds this thread, I have to repeat this: don't try this.

 

[Albion]

If our theory holds true, it could in theory be possible to avoid brain zaps on SSRI WD by taking small bumps of MXE or e.g. speed for 2-3 weeks (when the brain zaps are at their worst). It's not a road I would want to go down but if they brain zaps are unbearable I could actually see myself contemplate on doing it. The bumps whould have to be so small though that I can work normally (not hard with speed) and 2-3 weeks continually on MXE or speed just sound like it somehow has to interfere in the recovering process of the brain from the SSRI.

Again, just if some random guy is searching on the web for help for brain zaps and finds this thread, I have to repeat this: don't try this.

I dunno, small bumps of MXE purely to provide some peace of mind when getting to sleep seems like a good idea to me. So long as it doesn't become habitual, although habituation seems to be a common issue with MXE in particular. There ought to be some non-recreational drug that eliminates brain zaps...

 

[Cyanoide]

I dunno, small bumps of MXE purely to provide some peace of mind when getting to sleep seems like a good idea to me. So long as it doesn't become habitual, although habituation seems to be a common issue with MXE in particular. There ought to be some non-recreational drug that eliminates brain zaps...

I've had several SSRI WD's before, the worst by far being venlafaxine (Effexor). I got multiple brain zaps simultaneously, temporary blackouts from the zaps lasting a few seconds, vertigo and often heard a quite loud buzz in my ears. It sounded somehow electric but not like if a power pole would fall down. It was more like a bzzzzzzzz, very hard to explain. I have a work where I have to stay sharp, many meetings, seminars etc. Strong and very frequent brain zaps would greatly reduce my work capabilities. Fortunately brain zaps are not painful, they're just very annoying and can be extremely distracting. That's why I would need to have something that counters them at daytime too. I can't concentrate on working when continuously feeling someone's giving me electric shocks. Sleep is actually not that bad, the zaps are quite weak when I go to bed.

Another thing which completely eliminates brain zaps is meditation. But only for the time of the meditation session, they reoccur again after.

 

[Albion]

I've had several SSRI WD's before, the worst by far being venlafaxine (Effexor). I got multiple brain zaps simultaneously, temporary blackouts from the zaps lasting a few seconds, vertigo and often heard a quite loud buzz in my ears. It sounded somehow electric but not like if a power pole would fall down. It was more like a bzzzzzzzz, very hard to explain. I have a work where I have to stay sharp, many meetings, seminars etc. Strong and very frequent brain zaps would greatly reduce my work capabilities. Fortunately brain zaps are not painful, they're just very annoying and can be extremely distracting. That's why I would need to have something that counters them at daytime too. I can't concentrate on working when continuously feeling someone's giving me electric shocks. Sleep is actually not that bad, the zaps are quite weak when I go to bed.

Another thing which completely eliminates brain zaps is meditation. But only for the time of the meditation session, they reoccur again after.

I've always found brain zaps to actually be pretty painful. They're emotionally painful, they cause a lot of stress and anxiety, and the jolt of adrenaline that accompanies the more violent ones is sickening. The black-outs are horrible too...I'd consider them painful on many levels! Perhaps a regimen of 5-HTP intake could ease the suffering during times where taking a drug like speed or MXE is inadvisable.

 

[Tranced]

You mean when you're about to fall asleep and it suddenly feels like the world fell out from under you and you jump awake in terror?

I've gotten those all my life here and there, but the brain zaps are much different if you ask me.

While brain zaps are a different entity in themselves, they do seem to be in some way related to sleep paralysis and suddenly waking in terror.

A brain zap often triggers the above feeling in me.

 

[Jakeperson]

If our theory holds true, it could in theory be possible to avoid brain zaps on SSRI WD by taking small bumps of MXE or e.g. speed for 2-3 weeks (when the brain zaps are at their worst). It's not a road I would want to go down but if they brain zaps are unbearable I could actually see myself contemplate on doing it. The bumps whould have to be so small though that I can work normally (not hard with speed) and 2-3 weeks continually on MXE or speed just sound like it somehow has to interfere in the recovering process of the brain from the SSRI.

Again, just if some random guy is searching on the web for help for brain zaps and finds this thread, I have to repeat this: don't try this.

Small bumps of MXE seem to be stimulating and anxiolytic. I think I would rather that then speed, the insomnia and psychosis from speed would be just as unbearable

 

[Cyanoide]

Small bumps of MXE seem to be stimulating and anxiolytic. I think I would rather that then speed, the insomnia and psychosis from speed would be just as unbearable

I wouldn't be that afraid about insomnia with speed if I'd only take it in very small bumps during daytime (in such small doses I barely feel it), and bear with the brain zaps after work. Amphetamine psychosis is usually caused by large doses and no sleep. And I have quite an arsenal of sleep aids, I'm on mirtazapine now which is heavily sedating.

For me MXE feels truly stimulating only in large doses, so I don't know how it would go together with working. I feel it more like an opiate in small doses, although it still acts as a stimulant, but I'm definitely not clear-headed like on speed. Quite the opposite.

But I do see your point, weeks of speed, even in small doses and with sleep, it could trigger some very unwanted side effects. On the other hand, is it really that different from taking caffeine (which doesn't help me with brain zaps and gives me panic attacks) daily?. Most people take caffeine at work through the whole day. Caffeine is even more stimulating than speed for me.