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The Big & Dandy Brain Zaps / Brain Shivers Thread

Cyanoide said:
I wouldn't be that afraid about insomnia with speed if I'd only take it in very small bumps during daytime (in such small doses I barely feel it), and bear with the brain zaps after work. Amphetamine psychosis is usually caused by large doses and no sleep. And I have quite an arsenal of sleep aids, I'm on mirtazapine now which is heavily sedating.

For me MXE feels truly stimulating only in large doses, so I don't know how it would go together with working. I feel it more like an opiate in small doses, although it still acts as a stimulant, but I'm definitely not clear-headed like on speed. Quite the opposite.

But I do see your point, weeks of speed, even in small doses and with sleep, it could trigger some very unwanted side effects. On the other hand, is it really that different from taking caffeine (which doesn't help me with brain zaps and gives me panic attacks) daily?. Most people take caffeine at work through the whole day. Caffeine is even more stimulating than speed for me.
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Constantly taking small doses of amphetamine all day could leave you feeling burnt out in no time. It'd suppress your appetite as well, so appetite may get out of sync with what your body really needs at any particular moment. If I had to choose between amphetamine and MXE, I'd got for MXE hands down for the long term program. Also, if you get caught with it, tis a darn sight better than getting caught with speed.

Speed is more inherently euphoric, and would seem like the favourable option in the short term, but I think it'd get to you over time.
 
JSPete said:
Constantly taking small doses of amphetamine all day could leave you feeling burnt out in no time. It'd suppress your appetite as well, so appetite may get out of sync with what your body really needs at any particular moment. If I had to choose between amphetamine and MXE, I'd got for MXE hands down for the long term program. Also, if you get caught with it, tis a darn sight better than getting caught with speed.

Speed is more inherently euphoric, and would seem like the favourable option in the short term, but I think it'd get to you over time.
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I guess you're right. I have quite extensive experience with speed so I know it does a lot of sh!t to you. Or then I'll take speed some days, and MXE other days, haha.

No but seriosly, I'm still interested in how these substances removed brain zaps? What mechanism of action could have this effect? First I thought it was just an idiosyncronatic reaction in me, but it seems they remove brain zaps in others too.
 
I've gotten brain zaps from 5-HTP before. They're not very pleasant.
 
Pegasus said:
I've gotten brain zaps from 5-HTP before. They're not very pleasant.
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I would've thought that 5-HTP would promote the general level of serotonin enough to fend off SSRI withdrawal, and all the pain that comes with it.
 
^I don't think anyone really understands brain zaps entirely. There's a link to serotonin-- I don't know how much more can really be said.
 
JSPete said:
I would've thought that 5-HTP would promote the general level of serotonin enough to fend off SSRI withdrawal, and all the pain that comes with it.
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No, the opposite in many cases. 5-HTP increased the brain zaps and the other WD symptoms too. Many experience heightened anxiety and agitation when taking 5-HTP on SSRI WD. I've talked about this with lots of people who have experience the same thing and read about similiar experiences on many forums.

I'd advice to stay away from 5-HTP during WD.
 
Cyanoide said:
No, the opposite in many cases. 5-HTP increased the brain zaps and the other WD symptoms too. Many experience heightened anxiety and agitation when taking 5-HTP on SSRI WD. I've talked about this with lots of people who have experience the same thing and read about similiar experiences on many forums.

I'd advice to stay away from 5-HTP during WD.
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Wow so that just adds to the mystery...damn. I want answers!
 
JSPete said:
Wow so that just adds to the mystery...damn. I want answers!
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I decided to continue the discussion in the advanced section, please join the discussion there. This seems to be a very tricy issue and risks going too much off-topic here.
 
Cyanoide said:
I guess you're right. I have quite extensive experience with speed so I know it does a lot of sh!t to you. Or then I'll take speed some days, and MXE other days, haha.

No but seriosly, I'm still interested in how these substances removed brain zaps? What mechanism of action could have this effect? First I thought it was just an idiosyncronatic reaction in me, but it seems they remove brain zaps in others too.
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i've always understood that the zaps come from serotonin depletion. i believe amphetamine is a serotonin releaser. ime with SSRI discontinuation: 10 mg adderall could block the zaps for 3-5 hours.
with regards to mxe: i hypothesize that either NMDAr antagonism alleviates/distracts from the zaps, or dopamine depletion plays a larger role in the zaps than i had understood, or that mxe has some 5-ht action.
 
just to add my personal data;
i only really use lsd. and id say i go through my fair share..
ive experieced this shit countless times. it does concern me but not too much. it seems to happen only really when im high as all fuck
 
So I consumed a 5-meo substance the day before this happened-

It was late and I was laying down in a relaxed mind set about to sleep. I started getting a weird feeling after this and it was Very scary and confusing. I Was awake when this happened as I asked for help during this. I started hallucinating Very Verry bad. It felt like a brain zap but it wasnt jolty. I felt like I was falling down at first. I tried explaining to a close one so they could help but it was literally surreal. I didnt take any substances leading up to this. I then started getting different states of hallucinations and I dont remember shit after that but I blacked out completely in the midst of this. After I woke up I just looked around. I could not believe what happened. I felt like I was dying. It was almost like a night terror or paraylsis but it wasnt as I was awake. Maybe someone could tell me what this sounds like. I thought maybe it was a brain zap. This happened a few months back.
 
I've gotten brain zaps once before. It happened during shroomahuasca (1.75 grams with ground syrian rue). I was coming up with a friend and we were attempting to play we love katamari. We didn't really get past the opening screens, it was just too awesome. The euphoria from the music and the downright ridiculous opening video was making me completely ecstatic. Then out of nowhere I felt something like and electric shock from deep within my brain travel down my brainstem, into my spine and then through several nerves in my upper back and shoulders. It was kind of amazing feeling and kind of scarily powerful. They kept occurring every couple of minutes or so for about 10-15 minutes. Syrian rue really fucks me up when combined with tryptamines, I lose all coordination and get a super short attention span for the entire first wave and then the second wave is strong and mildly sedating. Kind of awesome, kind of shitty. Anyways, those brain shocks weren't too bad, on the verge of deeply enjoyable, but if they hadn't occurred at a moment when I was super euphoric they probably would have been nightmarish.
 
twelvesevndi said:
i've always understood that the zaps come from serotonin depletion. i believe amphetamine is a serotonin releaser. ime with SSRI discontinuation: 10 mg adderall could block the zaps for 3-5 hours.
with regards to mxe: i hypothesize that either NMDAr antagonism alleviates/distracts from the zaps, or dopamine depletion plays a larger role in the zaps than i had understood, or that mxe has some 5-ht action.
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If the zaps would come from serotonin depletion, 5-HTP would help. But it doesn't. 5-HTP actually makes the brain zaps worse.
 
sn0wburt0n said:
i think i know what your talking about.. a few times when i took 2ce, i would just feel fine and having thoughts, then all of a sudden i would like almost hear a loud electronic sound in my brain. i could feel it too. it was like i was kind of being electrocuted or something. very weird, kinda scary. only happened a few times while i was tripping tho. if it happened outside of the trips, i would really have second thoughts about whether or not i wanted to continue doing the drug in question. anyone have any more info about this and why it happens?
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This!! I used to get this with mushrooms!! It's a quick ZAP like feeling inside my head and a quick sound like a REALLY LOUD, deep electrical sound, and I would feel like I'm about to pass out just for a half second, and then we're right back to normal. Hasn't happened on my last few trips.

To make a long story short, about 2 years ago, I had a terrifying MDMA+inhalants experience, during which I strongly believe I did SOME level of damage to my brain. When those weird zaps happen during a mushroom experience, it feels like it's caused by some kind of serotonin system damage fro the bad MDMA experience(s), and when psilocybin activates the 'damaged' part of my brain, I get those crazy zaps. That's my extremely uneducated hypothesis, probably totally wrong.
 
Do "brain-zaps" just = release of Kundalini energy from the brain down thru the spine?
 
I don't know man, it is said these brain tsunami's are seen in some people with major brain trauma and they can do a lot of harm while the brain zaps we are talking about are not considered harmful. I do know that glutamate floods that can happen under certain circumstances can do a lot of harm in the brain because they pretty much excite the neurons to death (encitotoxicity). In that article they mention depolarizations but not really the means by which this activity travels. They make it sound like it is so strong that perhaps neurotransmitters hardly have that much to do with it anymore, like it is a shock intense enough to spread anyway. Like super epilepsy. If not they should probably use something like ketamine or other neuroprotective agents to block encitotoxicity. Or anti-epilepsy medications which often work by depressing the CNS, changing the way calcium channels work to decrease the chance of neurons firing, or - again - by changing glutamate activity like pregabalin and gabapentin which re-balances glutamate:GABA levels.
I am also reminded of lithium, which is relatively quite weak as a sodium-like electrolyte but still serves to enhance neuron membrane potentials. As a lot of us know, lithium with psychedelics can often have detrimental effects like seizures which are again electrical activity going overboard. Under normal circumstances and with tightly supervised concentrations of lithium in the brain it can bring balance and prevent hyperactivity of kinds but if there is augmented activity apparently it can spread like wildfire.

Anyway there are probably a lot of different mechanisms at work here, as in different factors that all change membrane potentials and thus the neuronal likelihood to polarize/depolarize and 'fire', but the common denominator still seems to be electrical activity going into overdrive and in that sense the brain tsunami's the article describes seem to fall into the same category so yea good find.
But to call them the same, I have my doubts. To treat them or to check if there is even a known way to treat them, you would have to know how the zaps are mediated. I think with mania glutamate is typically involved, with psychosis often dopamine and serotonin, with seizures I guess it depends, for brain zaps I believe it has been mentioned before in this thread that looking at the different causes of it, it seems to be associated with serotonin inequalities. So not necessarily a general shortage or abundance of serotonin but more like it is in the wrong place and by letting the balance be restored some natural action has to take place that upsets the electrical charges of the neurons. And the only way they can get rid of this hyperpolarization (or depolarization idk) is by those shocks. I suppose the inequalities build up and create a potential difference, then when somewhere there is a maximum reached - the discharge cascades along neuronal pathways to everywhere this inequality has built up.

All of the above, I think and suppose! I don't know for a fact.
 
I suspect the mechanism will have something to do with how the brain integrates different sensory modalities, and that the synchronisation of these modules is thrown off (we already know serotonergic neurotransmission is heavily implicated in this - after all, this is largely how psychedelics produce the effects they do in a mechanistic sense), with a resultant loss of the global workspace.

While brain zaps are common (especially in SSRI discontinuation syndrome), it is uncommon for them to be associated with actual seizures, and brain zaps usually lessen in intensity over time, not worsen, so I would think they are not explained by the usual 'kindling' model where neuroadaptation occurs and the syndrome worsens as the pathways become more burnt in.
 
colors said:
ever since my first drug experience (cannabis) i've always run into harsh brain zaps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_shiver) . i find with a high dose of certain psychedelics (mainly tryptamines it seems), when i feel overwhelmed or at the brink of ego loss, or on the edge of sleep in a lucid dream, a zap will slap me back into reality. this sucks obviously, ruining the flow of the trip and being a little painful at times.

i was on effexor for a year and the withdrawal from that exasperated the problem. but the issue was there to begin with.

anyone else have a similar problem/solution? is this indicative of something serious i should take note of?
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I experienced this before, It really blows man, still having them to this day.
 
@colors, thank you for that. its interesting to see that someone has experienced the exact same sensation "zap" sensation from psychedelics and ssri discontinuation.
I wish I had some advice for you but I've only ever gotten them from effexor discontinuation... titration and lots of rest helped but thats obviously not relevant here.
out of curiousity, how long ago did you discontinue? were you on the effexor when you first tried cannabis?

Cyanoide said:
If the zaps would come from serotonin depletion, 5-HTP would help. But it doesn't. 5-HTP actually makes the brain zaps worse.
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well I'm sorry i said "depletion." see below.
also, afaik there's not a strong correlation between eating 5-HTP and amount of 5-HT in your brain.
but if we assume there was a strong correlation and that eating 5-HTP consistently worsens zaps then we are still talking about a seratonin imbalance in the brain.

Solipsis said:
for brain zaps I believe it has been mentioned before in this thread that looking at the different causes of it, it seems to be associated with serotonin inequalities. So not necessarily a general shortage or abundance of serotonin but more like it is in the wrong place and by letting the balance be restored some natural action has to take place that upsets the electrical charges of the neurons. And the only way they can get rid of this hyperpolarization (or depolarization idk) is by those shocks. I suppose the inequalities build up and create a potential difference, then when somewhere there is a maximum reached - the discharge cascades along neuronal pathways to everywhere this inequality has built up.

All of the above, I think and suppose! I don't know for a fact.
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after completely discontinuing an SSRI and not having brain zaps for a couple weeks I was still having mild ones if I was having a lot of caffeine (on the come-down from the caffeine). At the time I was thinking maybe this had to do with seratonin:doapmine levels.
this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Mechanism_of_action
makes me think that its probably much more complex than that.

worth mentioning i suppose...i don't remember if it was already in this thread from someone else...
 
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