The Big & Dandy Brain Zaps / Brain Shivers Thread

[iseewhatsnotthere]

I get crazy muscle spasms some times when i eat mushies

 

[clubberdude]

I had electric zap experience in my head when I did mushroom tea once.

Found it odd, as I never got this if I ate them raw, only if brewed in a tea. Very strange...

 

[Roger&Me]

Unless of course the much ballyhooed "brain zaps" are not really any electrical phenomena actually occurring in the nervous system at all, but are just hallucinations of such. What's the difference? I'm not sure to tell the truth. Has anyone ever actually measured them as in some spikes that show up if a psychedelic user is hooked up to an EKG machine? You would think they would have been written about. I remain skeptical and am prone to presume they are just body-image hallucinations, not actual electric current traveling down nerves... I've never experienced one in 30 years of extreme psychedelic exploration of many compounds... but perhaps I am just blessed (cursed?) with a nervous system that is a rock of stability 8)

No doubt they probably aren't actual electrical phenomena. That's just how the feeling is described.

Well, what I mean to say is that they probably aren't electrical phenomena in a way that's different from any other sensation. Because technically every sensation is a result of the movement of charge carriers in nerves, and the movement of charge carriers induces an electric current.

But yeah, it would be cool to try to measure the phenomenon with an EEG (EKG is a diagnostic tool for heart problems, but its based off the same technology as EEG). The main problem I see with that is that these sensations arise unpredictably, so it would be hard to collect data from a practical perspective.

 

[TheAzo]

I had electric zap experience in my head when I did mushroom tea once.

Found it odd, as I never got this if I ate them raw, only if brewed in a tea. Very strange...

Likely a coincidence that it happened on the occasion you took it as tea.

It's interesting to note that i've yet to hear anyone report those zaps on most psychedelics, just mushrooms and the ridiculously-closely-related 4-AcO-DMT - I know I havn't experienced them on anything other than 4-AcO-DMT (though i've only taken mushrooms once, and at a lowish dose).
No sign of the "zaps" from any 2C, or from LSD, or from 4-HO-MET/MiPT - both of which are very similar structurally to 4-HO-DMT. I've taken 4-HO-MET more times, and in larger doses, than 4-AcO-DMT, and havn't felt anything like the "zap" sensation.

 

[PROZ4C]

Also happens after binging on mdma

This^

I was getting them in the middle of the night, would wake me up and scare the hell out of me.

All after a period of using too much MDMA for my own good.

To be honest though, they don't seem very harmful just frightening and unpleasant. Usually only got one or two a night at most, would last a second or two then go away.

I have never had these happen any other time.

 

[Rastahund]

I assumed the brain zaps on mushrooms were different than the ones from Prozac/MDMA. They feel slightly different, and I'd assume that psilocybin doesn't mess with your serotonin the same way an SSRI would. I only ever got the brain zaps from MDMA when I was doing it on a bi-weekly basis. But the zaps from mushrooms feel life-threatening and unsafe to me... I kinda enjoyed the Prozac ones a little bit.

 

[Penthos]

I always get them on mushrooms and get them fairly regularly on 4-AcO-DMT. I actually had a persisting brain-zap while meditating on 4-AcO-DMT that scared the life out of me. Thought I was having a seizure. As soon as I opened my eyes it stopped which made me kind of regret doing so. I'd never "broken through" on a tryptamine (or any psychedelic) before and I heard of some very unpleasant sounding sensations that occur as precursors to a +4 experience.

 

[Solipsis]

No doubt they probably aren't actual electrical phenomena. That's just how the feeling is described.

Well, what I mean to say is that they probably aren't electrical phenomena in a way that's different from any other sensation. Because technically every sensation is a result of the movement of charge carriers in nerves, and the movement of charge carriers induces an electric current.

But yeah, it would be cool to try to measure the phenomenon with an EEG (EKG is a diagnostic tool for heart problems, but its based off the same technology as EEG). The main problem I see with that is that these sensations arise unpredictably, so it would be hard to collect data from a practical perspective.

Exactly. A hallucination of an electric event instead of the actual event?? And how do you think you hallucinate this, by other electrical events (which is what neurological activity is at the core, chemicals mostly modulate)?
Dude, Occam's razor.

 

[twelvesevndi]

I get these within 36 hours of pritiq discontinuation .

^Yeah, that's a good observation. Even simple tryptamines that share most structural similarities with 4-subsituted tryptamines don't seem to be known for producing this phenomenon. I've heard it most commonly reported with mushrooms.

thought it would be worth mentioning that i have also got them on 120 mg of 5-meo-dalt

 

[Enter Galactic]

I always get them on mushrooms and get them fairly regularly on 4-AcO-DMT. I actually had a persisting brain-zap while meditating on 4-AcO-DMT that scared the life out of me. Thought I was having a seizure. As soon as I opened my eyes it stopped which made me kind of regret doing so. I'd never "broken through" on a tryptamine (or any psychedelic) before and I heard of some very unpleasant sounding sensations that occur as precursors to a +4 experience.

I've never experienced this brain-zap on 4-AcO-DMT, but I have "broken through" on it a couple of times, and the sensation of going from reality to another world was pretty terrifying (although very awe inspiring).

 

[PsychedelicPeptide]

Yea I was getting a lot from mdma a few years ago, after binging. I think taking piracetam helped them go away though, that or I just kicked it somehow. Because I haven't been the most non-binging person the past year or so but it hasn't happened in a long time.

 

[D n A]

One time while tripping on mushrooms I got them so bad I thought I was going to have a seizure or something. Obviously the trip didn't go so well after that..
I don't think it's really much to worry about. Probably something to do with a flood of serotonin to your head. But I'm no expert

 

[BananasAndOranges]

this comes of interest to me. NEVER in my life has this happened until last weekend when I consumed unknown amount. It was in a edible form of grinded mush. It made me feel overwhelmded and wobblying very drunk feeling even though I had drank prior it was very uncomfortable? I've taken mush's about 15 times total with that being probably 16 maybe 20 every other time was fun and this never happened. I also want to say i took 30mgs of diazepam beforehand....so I thought it would have been um....more mellow? can someone explain what happened? probably the most tripped out I have personally ever been in my life.

 

[pofacedhoe]

That's exactly what it is, those electric shock sensations arise due to perturbations of the serotonergic system.

this!

can freak your trip out, and sometimes is a sign that the trip is in a difficult place (at least for me)

i thinks its a serotonin absence symptom

 

[Solipsis]

You took an unknown amount and you want us to tell you what happened? It probably wasn't a low dose Diazepam should lower the chances yes, but not eliminate them I guess.

I've had brain zaps on mushrooms myself as well. It was accompanied by dissociation and sometimes the feeling of going up in a roller coaster looping but never coming down, just infinitely up up up.

IIRC the zaps are not necessarily about a flood of serotonin no. That is what happens if you take a lot of MDMA and it's not like people all over the place get zaps right then. Afterwards is more possible though. If it's waaay too much then its serotonin syndrome, still something different. I think I read somewhere that the zaps are associated with local imbalances in serotonin levels that may turn a regulated and control system into a race circuit of activity. Thats not much of an explanation though.
But still it seems to be the same thing with SSRI discontinuation: it's not the flood of serotonin but the relatively fast and thorough change in levels causing your body not to be able to keep up anymore with restoring the chemical balances.

merged in question about electric twitches on mushrooms

 

[DwayneHoover]

Exactly. A hallucination of an electric event instead of the actual event?? And how do you think you hallucinate this, by other electrical events (which is what neurological activity is at the core, chemicals mostly modulate)?
Dude, Occam's razor.

Dude, what I meant was there is probably a difference between something akin to a siezure or epileptic fit in which large measurable chaotic electrical storms are happening in the brain/body, which might theoretically be physically dangerous somehow. And on the other hand a "body image hallucination" consisting of an imaginary perception of a "Zap"... sure its the result of SOME electrical activity in the "sensory perception processing" brain areas in the form of a hallucinatory but false perception of "Zap" activity, but WITHOUT the actual large electrical storm associated with a real seizure or epileptic event.

In other words perhaps these Zaps are illusions via hallucination in the "perception/cognition" brain areas that merely seem like an electrical seizure/fit, but do NOT actually result from a real large electric seizure. Make sense? A body-image hallucination, not a genuine seizure. So many people report such a large variety of different kinds of "Zaps" that it seems likely to me a sign that this is what they are. Everyone is seeing all this self-reinforcing talk of "Zaps" and then mapping their own quite varied body-image hallucination onto that and saying "Oh, wow, yea I get Zaps too, man!!!" A self-reinforcing meme.... an urban legend of sorts that everyone seems to want to buy into, but that is really NOT any sort of "psychedelic-triggered seizure" of any kind, that everyone seems to be obsessively worrying that these are. Just a theory anyway. Well I guess we will never really know unless someone someday is hooked up to an EEG machine while having one.

Thanks for your detailed description directly above, that helps me understand what YOU mean by "Zaps." Then again I have heard other descriptions of different people's very different Zaps as well. Which is what makes me wonder if people are glomming a whole variety of vaguely similar things under one heading as if they are all one thing, when really they are a whole collection of very different phenomenon. Thus resulting in this mistaken and incorrect Meme that psychedelics common cause these sort of severe mini-siezures, which I am afraid will be seized upon (pun not intended) by the anti-drug assholes, when really it is a myth we have created ourselves, because everyone will have SOME sort of "event" that seem to want to report as a "Zap" That's what's bugging me, the development of the impression of a common phenomenon that does NOT in fact actually exist as such.

In my day, we just called things like this "having a rush." Is that really all we are talking about here? Seems to me it is, but that people have just decided to invent this scary-sounding new name for it, that I think in unnecessary and possibly harmful.

 

[TheAzo]

You can buy EEG (not EKG - EKG is monitoring electrical activity in the heart) headsets, with lots of data feeds, for ~300 bucks now.

Surely someone has the $ to drop on this, and wear it while tripping on something that produces "brain zaps" so we can see if there's a noticable change in electrical activity.

 

[psood0nym]

^I believe e1evene1even posted a long time ago that he has that equipment. Now you just have to convince him to deplete himself of serotonin to the point of continuous horrific partial seizures to satisfy our curiosity.

 

[Solipsis]

@DH

Nobody said the zaps are necessarily like epileptic fits or seizures / electrical storm, nor was there talk about the dangers. AFAIK the zaps are not dangerous, whether caused by mushrooms, MDMA (ab)use or SSRI discontinuation. As messed up as they may be I don't think there is any evidence to support the idea that even continuous zaps cause or involve lasting damage unless they come with serious complications. Actual seizures on the other hand may have some fatality if you are talking about severe epileptic disorders resulting in 'sudden deaths'.

And yes I am aware of the infectiousness of memes, but I don't think that people with brain zaps should be told they might be overreacting to a mere rush. That doesn't help at all, even if there are similarities, like how they happen as a sudden peak or jolt and often have a disorienting effect.

You are entitled to your own theory but I think these occurrences come out of nowhere too much to be placebo and furthermore it seems that people are experiencing these before ever reading about it which makes it kind of hard to hallucinate. If you can explain to me how you could hallucinate a symptom that is actually quite specific if you ask me (and often described in similar enough ways) without ever knowing about it before, please do.

Every psychedelic effect I ever had seems to be a synthesis of mind concepts that I conceived at some earlier point in my life or the sudden removal of such references which creates mystical things like timelessness and hyperspatial existence whatever that means. My point is that even the most insane experience I can think of which is among other things DMT, originates from what seems to be my own mental constructs pushing the limits of the imagination. How the themes come to be so specific is hard to explain but I think they involve very primal metaprograms or fragments of your own psyche. I am very skeptical towards the acquisition of truly original information without the use of your own senses.

Other things that may be experienced can have a different neurological basis, like the stimulation of certain brain areas that could cause sensations of 'a general presence', and a variety of other stunning states of consciousness that can be induced by applying an electric current to parts of the brain.

Of course I am not saying that I don't consider it possible, I remain open minded... but I also remain partial to the theory that has the most gravity, all things considered.

 

[Psychodelirium]

Fwiw, I first got this effect from dosing a syrian rue extract. I then got it again the next time I did mushrooms, even though I had never experienced it with mushrooms (or any other drug) before.

I am sure of two things about it. First, I am sure that it is not literally an "electrical" effect (no more so than anything else that happens in your brain) but a neurochemical one. Second, I am sure that it is not a "hallucination" but a real neurological event of some sort. It is just too random, too intense and too much unlike any other "hallucinogenic" effect.

Recording it with EEG is an interesting idea. I assume you're talking about the Emotiv EPOC. It certainly seems unobtrusive enough that you could wear it while tripping.